Wages and Unions - moved from: Things to do to keep feeling "normal" while living out of your van?

[Gr8ful]

Lance22 said:
Back in the 90's and early 2000's there was so much more hope. It's not that people are upset they have to work, it's that they have to work in the conditions that exist now when other generations had it waaaaaay easier.

Every generation has had different difficult challenges from 18% mortgages, gas embargo's, recessions (9 in my lifetime) & jobs moving overseas. I think with technology & the green movement there are more opportunities now than ever in history. After I broke my back & took a year to relearn to walk I had to hire people to lift, bend & had no problem but now people won't work, it's impossible to find anyone. Lance may I ask what your college degree is in? I never went but both sons had full 4 year full rides to Mich State & turned them down. They'll be 33 & 35 next month & make over $100k. My oldest is a lineman for AEP & loves it. So many oppertunities today. Plumbers, pipefitter's, electrical workers, truck drivers, welders, RV delivery & on & on all $100k or so. I wish I was 40, best part of life. Look at all the choices we have in the U.S. & so few in most other countries. I looked up my GGG Grandfather born in 1818, think of the choices he had. Look up Academy of Ideas on You Tube. They have lots of short vids about ourselves & others. Again Good Luck!

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^I don’t think people don’t want to do physical work as much as they don’t want to work without benefits like health insurance as one accident’s medical bills would bankrupt them. It is difficult for them to commit to work if they cannot see it paying off when they get too old or unable to work. One of the main reasons immigration is such an important issue is immigrants feel they will starve or die where they are and being poor with a chance of a better life here is better than where they are. Few people willingly work for long in jobs without benefits unless they pay enough to afford health insurance and a chance to save for the future never the less shelter. Most young people are in debt trying to figure out how to make a living. Mandatory public service that provides training or volunteer programs like Americorps would seem to be the answer to me.

 

[rruff]

My oldest is a lineman for AEP & loves it.

Must be working lots of OT to make $100k. Average salary for that job is $58k. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Lineman/Hourly_Rate/1afb83de/American-Electric-Power-AEP

Maybe that is a good union job, don't know. But in most of the country, unions are pretty much dead in the private sector... along with job security and benefits.

 

[Gr8ful]

Don't know where you get your info, I just typed AEP lineman salary & below popped up. He's now the top in seniority & taught AEP "Hotsticking: from his prior job of running several crews at Asplund. They send him to Ft Wayne once a month to teach it to the newby's in the program. He does do all the remotes such as the east coast, the gulf, etc but that's not counted in the $100k+. AEP & it's other names is the largest elect co in the US. Click the links https://www.zippia.com/american-electric-power-careers-559/salary/lineman/ Say here avg is $103,125 & he gets more & was paid well while learning it. He works 4 days a week unless storms.

American Electric Power lineman salaries range between $78,000 to $110,000 per year. American Electric Power linemen earn 19% more than the national average salary for linemen of $78,563.

https://www.salary.com/research/company/aep-energy-inc/journeyman-lineman-salary?cjid=443816

 

[rruff]

I linked was included... first thing that came up on my browser. I'm glad your son is doing well and likes his job.

One factor regarding that work: https://sparkybase.com/is-being-a-lineman-dangerous-a-brief-look-at-the-facts/

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) listed electrical power line installation and repair as the most dangerous job in the United States with a yearly death rate double that of police and fire officers."

 

[Gr8ful]

rruff, I checked your link & got this.Hope & believe it's an honest mistake.
https://www.pathrise.com/guides/a-r...ws of Payscale,company is a Payscale customer.


The main reviews of Payscale online are about the accuracy of their compensation data. Many people feel that the salaries on Payscale lower than the average. This makes it look like they are being paid way above average even if they are not. This can be especially frustrating when the company is a Payscale customer.Jan 18, 2023
https://www.pathrise.com/guides/a-r...s of Payscale,company is a Payscale customer.

 

[Gr8ful]

I linked was included... first thing that came up on my browser. I'm glad your son is doing well and likes his job.

One factor regarding that work: https://sparkybase.com/is-being-a-lineman-dangerous-a-brief-look-at-the-facts/

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) listed electrical power line installation and repair as the most dangerous job in the United States with a yearly death rate double that of police and fire officers."

You either need better info or learn how to read it. Lineman deaths are 42 per 100m, loggers are 66 per 100m. Linemen don't even make the top 10!

Found Linemen #18 way below crossing guards
https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/
https://www.invictuslawpc.com/most-dangerous-jobs-osha/

 

[rruff]

This is what I used to do... Aerospace Engineer... quit in 1990 making $60k/yr, after 8 years working. That is $144k in today's money.

Average salary from payscale is $91k, from salary.com is $100k. Both pretty appalling, IMO. Generally these jobs are in CA or other high COL places. The house I used to own and paid $92k for in the LA area in 1984, is now worth over $1M.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Aerospace_Engineer/Salaryhttps://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/aerospace-engineer-experienced-salary

 

[Gr8ful]

rruff, Thanks as I like a good debate!
If a moderator wants to delete our wage & safety debate aslong as rruff agrees it's OK with me.

These internet stats are a joke. Read my last post Linemen are safer than crossing guards LOL!
https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/

 

[rruff]

You either need better info or learn how to read it. Lineman deaths are 42 per 100m, loggers are 66 per 100m. Linemen don't even make the top 10!

Linemen obviously were not a category, else they would have been #3 with 42/100k.

In your other link, they only checked a single year. That isn't good data, as it is a small sample size and it fluctuates. They also say they make $68k/yr... is that good data?

 

[Gr8ful]

Linemen obviously were not a category, else they would have been #3 with 42/100k.

In your other link, they only checked a single year. That isn't good data, as it is a small sample size and it fluctuates. They also say they make $68k/yr... is that good data?

Very bad data! I was making a point to do what you like & for some jobs they'll pay you a decent living while training you & a great one after that & no student loans. More $$$ than an Aerospace Engineer, I'll tell my son that!

 

[RonDean]

Interesting conversation. I see lots of ways to look at employment.

First, as Bullfrog stated earlier, workers don't see very many employers with their best interests in mind, so they see little incentive to go the extra mile in return. Especially in jobs that are physically demanding. It's those jobs that have the greatest risk and chance of needing good medical care. Overall, such medical benefits have been in free-fall for decades. Income has not even kept up with the cost of living and for many young people the idea of home ownership is now the American Daydream. There are certainly no retirement plans anymore. 401k - ? That's the stock market and we have found more than once the stock market isn't the most dependable place to trust your retirement. If it wasn't for SS many seniors would be sitting on the street trying to sell pencils.

I was once a production engineer in the semiconductor industry. That whole industry was shipped off shore to save on labor and environmental costs. Then I was a manager at a company making circuit boards. That job soon followed semiconductors. And so on with many jobs after that. Now American workers are looking at competition from AI.

But, it isn't all bad news. Anyone remember "Other People's Money?" DeVito explains that technology doesn't give a damn about people's welfare. It just keeps moving on. The auto industry put the horse drawn buggy industry out of business, along with all the associated jobs - Like making buggy whips. I think today's American workers would be just fine with keeping up with technology. They just need a bit of help retraining. We need something like The GI Bill after WWII for workers in obsolete industries. Coal and oil and ICE mechanics and so on would be fine with working on renewable energy and EVs and so on if they just had a reasonable pathway for getting there.

Along with retraining, toss in a national minimum wage that allows people to afford at least a minimum living standard and add in a yearly cost of living increase and I think all of these criticisms of today's workers would quickly go away. And folks like the OP here would be much happie and see a clearer path forward..

 

[towboater]

Must be working lots of OT to make $100k. Average salary for that job is $58k. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Lineman/Hourly_Rate/1afb83de/American-Electric-Power-AEP

Maybe that is a good union job, don't know. But in most of the country, unions are pretty much dead in the private sector... along with job security and benefits.

Not saying this to disagree with u but I c most trades r paying that or more since finding people that want to do physical work and spend time in apprenticeship is getting harder. Plus, in some trades u can wrap up in excess of $100,000.00 in a vehicle or tooling. (no politicians offering to pay off their debt).
Whenever I look at the average salaries for the trades I follow I don't know anyone at that low end that is at Journeyman level. That is for Plumbers, Electricians, Welders, and Mechanics. I am sure there are some dirt floor shops screwing over their workers that are paying less.
Best wishes

 

[INTJohn]

I grew up in foster homes and was never adopted. Have always taken care of me.

when 18 I enlisted in the military and began to build my life frum dirt bottom scratch and by design.
Attained my STEM degrees and became professionally licensed Engineer in several states and Self Employed.
My point: Most people in Murahka no matter their beginning or lot in life started off with a helluvalot more than me in Life and frankly as of 20 years ago I had already made more money & built a Life surpassing anything I ever dreamed that I would have and would never live long enuff to spend it.

That was 20 years ago. Today I live in my vehicle not because I need to but because I LOVE LIVING THIS Way! Just being a vagabond like when I was a teenager.

Also while self employed I never had a staff or employees- did all my work all my self as employees from what I saw in life and other companies are nothing but a pain in the ass. Nope didn’t need em and never would hire any and never did.

I don’t shed much tears for Murahkans frum a ghetto to a mansion that started off with way more than me in Life and never did anything with it but piss it away and now all they do is bitch piss & moan and blame everyone & everything else for whatever their life is or isn’t.

I live great today and have lived one great life.
great experiences; some good; some bad but never a complaint.
jonny boi luvin the dream.

 

[Gr8ful]

I do know a job with a huge need that pays great & you can work as much or as little as you want. There has been a need for a Handyman doing small jobs for 25+ years. Changing a door, storm door or window, toilet, small painting jobs, landscaping or lawn care all sorts of half or one day jobs. Contractors can't afford to do small jobs. You can do most small jobs with minimal tools & have the home owner rent anything larger & buy the material. If you're not handy watch you tube, read, volunteer to learn. Reading the directions will cover almost all of it. Charge $75/hr labor paid cash daily, keep it $600 or less per job at least here & no contractor license required. Work when you want. 40 hrs x $75= $3000/week x 52= $156,000 per year! You'll have a lifetime job as people getting older hire everything done & this has been a problem getting small jobs done for 2 or 3 decades. Everyday is different, you can only get cheated out of 1 days labor max as they buy the material (which probab will never happen) & you'll have more work than you want to do so pick the jobs you like. I've had a new toilet in the hanger for 5 years I can't get put in.
Lance let me know what you think.

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^There is a reason you can’t get it done Lol!!! Did handy man work for several years and never made anywhere near $75 an hour, I was lucky to make minimum wage especially if you pay your taxes or get sued without insurance. Have you priced tools lately? My cousin still does, lucky he is a veteran with medical benefits as he has fallen off a ladder twice since he turned 75 years old. Try and get a loan with occupation of “handyman” he still drives around in his 40 year old truck while living on Social Security or he would have been bankrupt by now. Yes you can get by if you can stay healthy but that gets harder as you get older and stay single. I finally gave up after a customer in a wealthy neighborhood I often worked in wanted to pay me more but only if I didn’t let anyone know as her neighbors would get mad because they were afraid I would raise my rates! Lol!!! No one “wants” to end up old and poor!

 

[Gr8ful]

Not that way here & hasn't been. I ran a lumber yard for most of my career & it was a huge problem then. You can't hire anyone here. I had a young friend that did CNC by wanted to open a machine shop at home so I found him super good deals on machines such as a 4' radial drill for $300 but he started doing "Handyman Work" at the price I quoted & is booked for 3 years with 3 employees. There are several Handyman frachises, check their prices & lead times. There are many more old, injured people that cant do it themselves anymore & times have changed as people hire everything done from door dash, meals ready to cook, etc. I'd install vinyl replacement windows myself. 15 years ago $100 labor ea & you can do 2 per hr. Times & people have changed! Click the top link & let Bob Villa tell you. You sold yourself way short

https://www.bobvila.com/articles/handyman-costs/
https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_hourly_rate_for_a_self_employed_carpenter_in_Missouri
How much do handymen charge per hour in Michigan?
Most handymen charge between $50 and $80 per hour, making an average of $150 to $600 per job. Rates depend on their specialty, experience, level of education, and whether the handyman is insured, requires specialized equipment, or services rural locations.

 

[LargeMarge]

...according to the CIA...

Our elected officials...allowed businesses to call the shots for decades. If politicians would do...

.
a -- quoting a press-release from the government agents is equivalent to quoting a hollywood script-writer cell-drone hiding inside the Hive:
* "I saw this in a commercial for feminine hygiene products, so it must be true! [small print -- may cause hair-loss tinnitus explosive-diarrhea inverted-nipples, see your doctor if symptoms persist]!"
.
b -- 'elected officials' are a 100% solely-owned subsidiary of global bankers.
.
c -- politicians are in the grift business.
Politicians are professional liars, psychopaths incapable of empathy.
Example:
* q -- How much of the half-trillion in foreign-aid to the Ukraine ended up helping the people in the Ukraine?
* a -- about forty-nine cents and a stale half-ate sandwich.
.
.
Note to moderators:
Go ahead, put me on double-secret probation.
Again.
The shame, the shame, how can I ever live with the shame...
.
.
Word For The Day:
* 'persist'

 

[user 22017]

.
a -- quoting a press-release from the government agents is equivalent to quoting a hollywood script-writer cell-drone hiding inside the Hive:
* "I saw this in a commercial for feminine hygiene products, so it must be true! [small print -- may cause hair-loss tinnitus explosive-diarrhea inverted-nipples, see your doctor if symptoms persist]!"
.
b -- 'elected officials' are a 100% solely-owned subsidiary of global bankers.
.
c -- politicians are in the grift business.
Politicians are professional liars, psychopaths incapable of empathy.
Example:
* q -- How much of the half-trillion in foreign-aid to the Ukraine ended up helping the people in the Ukraine?
* a -- about forty-nine cents and a stale half-ate sandwich.
.
.
Note to moderators:
Go ahead, put me on double-secret probation.
Again.
The shame, the shame, how can I ever live with the shame...
.
.
Word For The Day:
* 'persist'

I don't disagree except I give them credit for posting the truth. I first saw that on their website over 20 years ago.

About 7 years ago the truth came out in the mainstream press. Some university researchers figured out that wages had stagnated since 1980. I wondered why it was all over in the news when the facts were available all along.

Same with work stoppages under the Reagan administration. There is a chart at the department of Labor's website showing the number of stoppages per year going back to 1930, iirc.

Think they averaged 214 a year. Reagan's first term they dropped to 15 a year and remained there since.

Firing the air traffic controllers sent a strong message to corporations. They no longer had to tolerate unions . The info is there... just waiting for a university professor to "discover" it .

Maybe I don't know what a work stoppage is. I thought it meant strikes.

 

[rruff]

I think today's American workers would be just fine with keeping up with technology. They just need a bit of help retraining.

People don't "do fine" naturally when jobs are destroyed by tech. The thing you are missing, is that after the collapse of 1929, the smart capitalists knew that the fastest way to grow the economy and military was to ensure that worker wages kept pace with productivity. If you do that, then workers will be fine. So they made it happen with public benefits, labor unions, minimum wage, etc. It worked great. The game at that time was world domination... the oligarchs wanted power more than wealth. When it became clear that the USSR would collapse and the US was assured to become the world hegemon, they switched policies... which has resulted in nearly all the productivity gains going to the rich... and the economy is kept afloat with massive debt escalation, deficit trade, financial "creativity".