Shotgun in a Van?
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Some things to consider:
1) A shotgun has many advantages for self defense outside your vehicle. If the "bad thing" is inside with you, even a pistol might be difficult to maneuver inside a van. So the object should be to keep the "bad thing" outside at all costs.
2) A shotgun is not a "magic weapon"; it does need to be aimed and unlike the movies, will not blow a human being five feet backwards. Racking a pump shotgun is not discouraging to an experienced criminal, all you accomplished is to give away your position and let them know you aren't very comfortable with firearms. The sound of racking the shotgun slide might scare off kids bent on vandalism but not a real bad person from doing you purposeful harm.
3) Shotguns are easier to hit a target with than a handgun for inexperienced shooters at defensive ranges. Yes, you still must aim! Shotguns are undeniably a psychological weapon, don't believe me? Try looking at the wrong end of a double barrel 12 gauge..... those two holes look huge, and most folks believe "You can't miss" with a shotgun = false.
4) Most shotguns with wood stocks don't have that "scary black rifle look". Easy to transport in almost every state. Legal even in Canada..(pay a $50 fee at the border crossing).
5) Shotguns can be loaded with slugs (solid lead projectile), buck shot (large multiple round balls) or birdshot (lots of smaller round balls), so it's a very versatile firearm. A double barrel allows you to carry mixed loads, say a slug in one barrel and buckshot in the other and the ability to choose which one to shoot. Shotguns are excellent "get food" firearms too, but we are talking van defense on this topic.
6) I drive/travel with mine unloaded, but load and place by the door as part of my set-up camp procedure.
7) If you decide on a shotgun, may I suggest the Stoeger Coach Gun, (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/side-by-side-shotguns),. It's a double barrel side by side "old West" looking shotgun with 20" barrels. Some advantages for this particular gun:
a) It's very short and easy to maneuver, even in close spaces.
b) Easy to load and operate, even by beginners.
c) Nothing to jam or stop the action from working. It will go BANG every time! Nothing against semi-auto and pump shotguns but they "may" jam and misfire, especially when used by someone not familiar with the weapon, a double barrel shotgun has nothing to jam......easy-peasy!
d) The Coach Gun can be purchased in either 12 gauge or the softer recoiling 20 gauge, either size is adequate for home defense. I personally recommend the 20 gauge for folks of smaller stature or with shoulder injuries.
e) The Stoeger is made in Brazil and has a good reputation among Cowboy Action Shooters who run the snot out of them. With practice, one can reload in seconds......
f) You can fire one barrel at a time or both at the same time (look out, it kicks!)
g) One barrel is choked for short distance, the other for longer ranges, very handy when hunting and such........
h) You can buy these at Big 5 for $450
i) It screams "John Wayne Cool"!
8) For me, it's all about "Force Escalation". I don't automatically go for lethal force if avoidable. My defense options (sort of in order)
a) My experience, training and "spider sense" to keep me away from trouble in the first place.
b) A walking stick and knowledge/practice how to use it as a weapon. Works great for most animals and some humans.
c) Real Bear Spray. Legal in Canada, shoots 10-15 feet, multiple shots. Works on most everything! Non-lethal. Inexpensive. DO NOT trust regular gun shop "pepper sprays", illegal in Canada, not very effective, might make you feel better but only shoot 10' once or twice...not very effective on rabid dogs (personal first hand experience).
d) Firearm: Pistol when hiking (only because it can be concealed and causes less "stress" with fellow hikers), shotgun around camp.
e) Bump in the night? I grab the loaded shotgun every time and then de-escalate if possible.
f) "Knife edge of the hand" for all you USMC folks!
Bob Wells made an excellent point at the "Safety" seminar at the RTR. To paraphrase: You might not be very effective with a firearm but it gives you confidence when you reach for it and that confidence will make you a "harder target". Great advice!
Happy Trails!
Chuck
1) A shotgun has many advantages for self defense outside your vehicle. If the "bad thing" is inside with you, even a pistol might be difficult to maneuver inside a van. So the object should be to keep the "bad thing" outside at all costs.
2) A shotgun is not a "magic weapon"; it does need to be aimed and unlike the movies, will not blow a human being five feet backwards. Racking a pump shotgun is not discouraging to an experienced criminal, all you accomplished is to give away your position and let them know you aren't very comfortable with firearms. The sound of racking the shotgun slide might scare off kids bent on vandalism but not a real bad person from doing you purposeful harm.
3) Shotguns are easier to hit a target with than a handgun for inexperienced shooters at defensive ranges. Yes, you still must aim! Shotguns are undeniably a psychological weapon, don't believe me? Try looking at the wrong end of a double barrel 12 gauge..... those two holes look huge, and most folks believe "You can't miss" with a shotgun = false.
4) Most shotguns with wood stocks don't have that "scary black rifle look". Easy to transport in almost every state. Legal even in Canada..(pay a $50 fee at the border crossing).
5) Shotguns can be loaded with slugs (solid lead projectile), buck shot (large multiple round balls) or birdshot (lots of smaller round balls), so it's a very versatile firearm. A double barrel allows you to carry mixed loads, say a slug in one barrel and buckshot in the other and the ability to choose which one to shoot. Shotguns are excellent "get food" firearms too, but we are talking van defense on this topic.
6) I drive/travel with mine unloaded, but load and place by the door as part of my set-up camp procedure.
7) If you decide on a shotgun, may I suggest the Stoeger Coach Gun, (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/side-by-side-shotguns),. It's a double barrel side by side "old West" looking shotgun with 20" barrels. Some advantages for this particular gun:
a) It's very short and easy to maneuver, even in close spaces.
b) Easy to load and operate, even by beginners.
c) Nothing to jam or stop the action from working. It will go BANG every time! Nothing against semi-auto and pump shotguns but they "may" jam and misfire, especially when used by someone not familiar with the weapon, a double barrel shotgun has nothing to jam......easy-peasy!
d) The Coach Gun can be purchased in either 12 gauge or the softer recoiling 20 gauge, either size is adequate for home defense. I personally recommend the 20 gauge for folks of smaller stature or with shoulder injuries.
e) The Stoeger is made in Brazil and has a good reputation among Cowboy Action Shooters who run the snot out of them. With practice, one can reload in seconds......
f) You can fire one barrel at a time or both at the same time (look out, it kicks!)
g) One barrel is choked for short distance, the other for longer ranges, very handy when hunting and such........
h) You can buy these at Big 5 for $450
i) It screams "John Wayne Cool"!
8) For me, it's all about "Force Escalation". I don't automatically go for lethal force if avoidable. My defense options (sort of in order)
a) My experience, training and "spider sense" to keep me away from trouble in the first place.
b) A walking stick and knowledge/practice how to use it as a weapon. Works great for most animals and some humans.
c) Real Bear Spray. Legal in Canada, shoots 10-15 feet, multiple shots. Works on most everything! Non-lethal. Inexpensive. DO NOT trust regular gun shop "pepper sprays", illegal in Canada, not very effective, might make you feel better but only shoot 10' once or twice...not very effective on rabid dogs (personal first hand experience).
d) Firearm: Pistol when hiking (only because it can be concealed and causes less "stress" with fellow hikers), shotgun around camp.
e) Bump in the night? I grab the loaded shotgun every time and then de-escalate if possible.
f) "Knife edge of the hand" for all you USMC folks!
Bob Wells made an excellent point at the "Safety" seminar at the RTR. To paraphrase: You might not be very effective with a firearm but it gives you confidence when you reach for it and that confidence will make you a "harder target". Great advice!
Happy Trails!
Chuck
TrainChaser
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OP: "... some of the experts I've trained with say that a hardened criminal, when faced with that situation, will sometimes think: 'This idiot only just realized his gun wasn't loaded. If I move fast, I can probably take him.' "
HUH? You're in a van. Unless the windows are open, you aren't going to hear too much approach unless they're in a vroom-vroom vehicle. By the time they're close enough for you to hear, they're pretty close, so you grab the shotgun and rack it. [insert above comment here]
My thoughts:
A. Keeping a shotgun perpetually loaded seems like a poor idea.
B. You can't make last-minute decisions until you know there's a problem.
C. Anyone who is stupid enough to attack AFTER they've heard the first well-known sound of a shotgun that precedes the blast is an idiot.
All of the people who think they're going to know everything ahead of time are deluding themselves. IOW, they've been watching too many totally-fiction movies.
HUH? You're in a van. Unless the windows are open, you aren't going to hear too much approach unless they're in a vroom-vroom vehicle. By the time they're close enough for you to hear, they're pretty close, so you grab the shotgun and rack it. [insert above comment here]
My thoughts:
A. Keeping a shotgun perpetually loaded seems like a poor idea.
B. You can't make last-minute decisions until you know there's a problem.
C. Anyone who is stupid enough to attack AFTER they've heard the first well-known sound of a shotgun that precedes the blast is an idiot.
All of the people who think they're going to know everything ahead of time are deluding themselves. IOW, they've been watching too many totally-fiction movies.
Optimistic Paranoid
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TrainChaser said:
Your comment above about being in a van has some validity. However, your ORIGINAL post didn't mention vans and seemed to be phrased more as a universal generality.
Ever spent any time in a prison debriefing criminals? The people I've trained with have, and their advice comes from those debriefings.
Hardened criminals aren't like you and me. Many of them have been hospitalized for beatings, knifings, even for having been shot. While none of them WANT to go through it again, they aren't as automaticaly scared of it as you might expect someone to be. Many of them believe that "citizens" are soft, don't want to shoot anybody, and will hesitate to pull a trigger.
Another factor. Can they escape without having to go over/through you? If they've just forced your van door open, then sure, But what if they can't? Heard of "three strikes"? What if being caught by you is gonna mean life in prison?
DrJean
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Three strikes... oh ... yeah... won't mean much if he's dead from shotgun blasts.
It is' always the "unloaded" weapon that "accidentally" kills someone.
One of the first weapons I trained on was the AR 15... and wish I had bought one 30 years ago.. .bit too pricey now.
I raised my children to know the firearms were always loaded...even when out of sight. (One is a charmer, the other career Army ).
As for racking a shotgun and it's psychological effects when it's in the dark and when someone thinks he's stealth... guess you have to be there. I doubt any hardened criminal is going to admit he peed his pants!
And if he/she is a bad dude he at least knows it's going to be a fight and as previous potus said, they bring a knife? You bring a gun to the fight. Lock and load folks.
It is' always the "unloaded" weapon that "accidentally" kills someone.
One of the first weapons I trained on was the AR 15... and wish I had bought one 30 years ago.. .bit too pricey now.
I raised my children to know the firearms were always loaded...even when out of sight. (One is a charmer, the other career Army ).
As for racking a shotgun and it's psychological effects when it's in the dark and when someone thinks he's stealth... guess you have to be there. I doubt any hardened criminal is going to admit he peed his pants!
And if he/she is a bad dude he at least knows it's going to be a fight and as previous potus said, they bring a knife? You bring a gun to the fight. Lock and load folks.TrainChaser
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OP, I don't understand. If the perp hears you rack the shotgun, YES it probably wasn't cocked before, but it is NOW. You think he would still charge at a loaded, racked shotgun? (Excluding meth junkies)
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Frankly if I was in a vehicle the size of a van; or say when I'm auxiliary camped in my burb or pik up I would have no qualms whatsoever about going for one of my fighting knives if the attacker is already within close proximity to me.
If I see them first on approach then I'm probably going for a gun but if they're already at close proximity a knife is in many cases more advantageous then any firearm. IF you know how to fight with a knife; which I grant you hardly anyone does (but then few people know how to defend themselves witha firearm either) - and I mean fight not fend - at close quarters a knife is as devastating as any bullet. There are many places where a person can be cut with a purpose built fighting knife and they will lose consciousness in seconds........
I spent years in combat, 2 wars and frankly I've killed 11 men in my life in combat that I know of and 2 of them were with a knife.........
A knife is a forgotten weapon but here again I'm talking about a purpose built fighting knife not a hunting knife, or a kitchen knife or a bayonet or even a general purpose combat survival knife. That blade will become part of you - I've had mine since 1972.
.........and the title to this thread - we're not playing Jeopardy; why is it phrased in the form of a question? It should be a statement.
INTJohn
If I see them first on approach then I'm probably going for a gun but if they're already at close proximity a knife is in many cases more advantageous then any firearm. IF you know how to fight with a knife; which I grant you hardly anyone does (but then few people know how to defend themselves witha firearm either) - and I mean fight not fend - at close quarters a knife is as devastating as any bullet. There are many places where a person can be cut with a purpose built fighting knife and they will lose consciousness in seconds........
I spent years in combat, 2 wars and frankly I've killed 11 men in my life in combat that I know of and 2 of them were with a knife.........
A knife is a forgotten weapon but here again I'm talking about a purpose built fighting knife not a hunting knife, or a kitchen knife or a bayonet or even a general purpose combat survival knife. That blade will become part of you - I've had mine since 1972.
.........and the title to this thread - we're not playing Jeopardy; why is it phrased in the form of a question? It should be a statement.
INTJohn
Optimistic Paranoid
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TrainChaser said:
Look, I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, or that it wouldn't happen. I'm saying that the real experts say you shouldn't depend on it always happening. If you expect that he's going to freeze cause he's scared shitless because of a noise you made, YOU'RE the one that won't react fast enough if he goes for a gun or comes at you. Surprise is something that happens in your mind when something happens that you weren't expecting to happen.
To rack or not, that is the question, to paraphrase Shakespeare.
Racking a shotgun will cause the common thief to leave posthaste, but someone intent on doing you harm and knows you are in the van is a different animal.
I've been on a couple of forums and have never read of someone being robbed in their RV. It did happen at a Walmart in Arlington Tx and the owner of the Rv met the guy at the door with a shotgun. Only problem was he was at port arms with the weapon and got it snatched from him. Dumbass. This was a few years ago and the owner actually opened the door to a knock. Dumbass again. Luckily the family just got robbed, not killed by the fathers dumbassery.
Chances are great you will not need to use a weapon while in your Van or whatever you sleep in. Too much worry about things that won't happen.
To me it is a personal choice. I keep my weapon loaded. I don't believe in luck or chance. If someone is stupid enough to approach a van knowing someone is inside, he means you harm. If he opens my door by force or breaks a window many bad things are going to happen to him. No racking, no warning, just BANG.
Rob
Racking a shotgun will cause the common thief to leave posthaste, but someone intent on doing you harm and knows you are in the van is a different animal.
I've been on a couple of forums and have never read of someone being robbed in their RV. It did happen at a Walmart in Arlington Tx and the owner of the Rv met the guy at the door with a shotgun. Only problem was he was at port arms with the weapon and got it snatched from him. Dumbass. This was a few years ago and the owner actually opened the door to a knock. Dumbass again. Luckily the family just got robbed, not killed by the fathers dumbassery.
Chances are great you will not need to use a weapon while in your Van or whatever you sleep in. Too much worry about things that won't happen.
To me it is a personal choice. I keep my weapon loaded. I don't believe in luck or chance. If someone is stupid enough to approach a van knowing someone is inside, he means you harm. If he opens my door by force or breaks a window many bad things are going to happen to him. No racking, no warning, just BANG.
Rob
Not true. I'm in a conversion van and at night in a parking lot with little activity, I can easily hear people walking to their cars in pairs while talking from pretty far away. Normal car's exhaust can easily be heard. It would be crazy for me to just rack my shotgun every time someone walks near my van. People will call the freakin' cops that there's a crazy person with a loaded shotgun who keeps racking it. Unless they've just smashed a window or trying to break the lock, you can't just make the racking noise to deter people w/o having cops called on you. Even if they were checking to see if your doors are unlocked, you still would be the abnormal person in a cop's eyes.
Plenty of people are trained to do so. But there seems to be laws against having a loaded rifle in vehicles, due to poachers/hunters, so for safety, just fudge a little by only having it loaded while parking for the night.
There's no exact formula to this. They both have risks. Some people aren't afraid of guns, especially if they have guns of their own to commit a crime. Now if they were under the influence or if they were looking to get money for their next fix, they are hurting real bad and would probably do anything. Here's a video of home invaders that were shot at by a rifle, but one still came back in after being shot at already.
Haha, you're doing the same thing that you're complaining about, except from your own perception.
TrainChaser said:
You seem to keep assuming that only yourself, have a gun or guns. If they now know that you're armed but still wanted to get you, why would they charge through the doors for? Who's got more mobility, field of vision, etc? Yourself in a can? It's a lot easier to crawl around the outside of the van to get peeks inside the van, to see where you are than it is for you to find them from your position.
Now if you had no windows and if this was some kind of kill or be kill situation, deep in BLM woods somewhere that no one's around to hear all the gunshots; then wouldn't it be so much easier for someone with an AK-47 or just a shotgun with buckshots to just stand 50 feet away behind a big tree, at the side of your van (away from the direction of the doors where you're pointing your shot gun at).... and just unload on you?
ArtW
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When strong, appear weak
when weak, appear strong
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
when weak, appear strong
Sun Tzu, the Art of War
DrJean
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As for the given scenario... it's dark/night, I'm in my van with my shotgun, the perp is outside coming in with a handgun and I rack the shotgun.... he has an obscure target with a single bullet, I have a definite target spot with a spray... hmmmmm My main concern will be how much of the van do I want to mess up
minimotos95
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How about the situation where in the stress of the moment you(directed to those who advocate not having a round chambered) short shuck the pump and don't realize it so you hear a click when your life is on the line? I know of it happening to hunters when in a panic, a hostile human coming towards you or forcing entry when you are half awake is a lot more stressful than a pheasant flying away.
My opinion is a firearm is NEVER to be used as a tool of intimidation. A situation either requires the use of deadly force or it doesn't. Introducing a gun to the situation can escalate a minor inconvenience(attempted theft, etc) to a gunfight.
My opinion is a firearm is NEVER to be used as a tool of intimidation. A situation either requires the use of deadly force or it doesn't. Introducing a gun to the situation can escalate a minor inconvenience(attempted theft, etc) to a gunfight.
TrainChaser
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First, I doubt that I would attract that much trouble. I've gone a lot of miles on the road and camped in a lot of places -- if something seems wrong or creepy, I just leave. So far, I've never gotten into trouble. And I don't really anticipate anything like this happening with people around, in a parking lot. I don't spend much time in parking lots. Nor do I think that I will be the only one with a gun; that would be kind of stupid, wouldn't it? I'm not assuming ANYTHING.
I'm mainly trying to consider different scenarios because I DON'T really anticipate knowing what's coming. I like to do a lot of 'What would you do if...' thinking, just so I might have something already in my head if something does happen, and don't have to rummage around in a vacuum in a tight spot.
If I'm outside the van, I'm not likely to have the shotgun at hand. I'll have to think of something else. And try to keep something solid at my back, if possible.
Inside, I can rack it and hope I'm pointing in the right direction. And I WILL be pointing it. If it scares them away, fine. If it doesn't, I hope to deal with the next step properly. But I do know that what I do depends on what he/she does, and that I have to be ready for anything.
The only time someone crept up on my van, I didn't hear them. But my dog did, and she started that very soft growl, which was a full-alert warning. I didn't hear anything until I heard something brushing against the outside of the slider door, and someone gently tried the door handle, at which time my Belgian sounded off, and then I did hear running footsteps, but they were moving very fast in an 'away' direction.
I'm mainly trying to consider different scenarios because I DON'T really anticipate knowing what's coming. I like to do a lot of 'What would you do if...' thinking, just so I might have something already in my head if something does happen, and don't have to rummage around in a vacuum in a tight spot.
If I'm outside the van, I'm not likely to have the shotgun at hand. I'll have to think of something else. And try to keep something solid at my back, if possible.
Inside, I can rack it and hope I'm pointing in the right direction. And I WILL be pointing it. If it scares them away, fine. If it doesn't, I hope to deal with the next step properly. But I do know that what I do depends on what he/she does, and that I have to be ready for anything.
The only time someone crept up on my van, I didn't hear them. But my dog did, and she started that very soft growl, which was a full-alert warning. I didn't hear anything until I heard something brushing against the outside of the slider door, and someone gently tried the door handle, at which time my Belgian sounded off, and then I did hear running footsteps, but they were moving very fast in an 'away' direction.
DrJean said:As for the given scenario... it's dark/night, I'm in my van with my shotgun, the perp is outside coming in with a handgun and I rack the shotgun.... he has an obscure target with a single bullet, I have a definite target spot with a spray... hmmmmm My main concern will be how much of the van do I want to mess up
Who says that the Perp needs to confront you at one of your doors? Especially after you just racked your shotgun and now he knows it's business.
If you're inside your van and the Perp really, really, really wanted to kill you, then wouldn't he just stand outside and start shooting into the van from outside? I mean, it's just sheet metal with some insulation. A little 9mm with FMJ will easily go through it with decent energy left to kill or at least injure. If not 1, then 50-100 shots. Not uncommon to have a 15-17 round mag.....and 2-3 more mags. Or even a 30 round mag X 3 or something. Even with an average 10 round mag for concealed carry, many people will have a 1-2 extra mags.
He can just start shooting at every angle where you could be in your van, while he's walking around your van while staying out of your line of sight. Does your van have windows? Even if it's a conversion van, there would still be blind spots. Or the Perp can take cover behind a tree and start shooting, reload, etc.
You're basically a sitting duck. And worse if he has an AR or AK or even his own 12 gauge.
You just assumed that since you never encountered such problems in a parking lot, that you never will. And I was responding to you stating that you would absolutely scare off someone by just racking your shotgun, which is an assumption. Especially an assumption that they aren't armed themselves and also assuming that they'd still need to charge in through the doors.TrainChaser said:
No plan or reaction is perfect. We could debate until the cows come home but it is a persons response to a threat, either perceived or real, that will determine the outcome. Racked and loaded or loaded and ready? whose to say? each of us should have a plan if concerned about safety in an area. Stick to the plan, whatever it is and follow through with it.
No plan is perfect and sometimes the execution of a plan fails for whatever reason. Our Special Forces are the best trained, most skilled and their plans cover every known contingency but yet they sometimes fail. Why? The 'Chaos" effect. No matter what you plan, something will be out of place or different than you planned for. You could go to sleep every night with a loaded, fully automatic weapon and still get got.
Whatever gives you a feeling of security is what works for you. Practice what you would do would be a good thing. I have had the privilege of watching Special Ops rehearse a real raid and it's done over and over. Slow motion, then full speed until it's done right. Still men (or in our case men or women) could get killed. An example is Ryan Owens, the Navy Seal who gave his life on a recent mission.
Go out, have fun and enjoy the lifestyle you have chosen and don't sweat the petty shit.
Rob
No plan is perfect and sometimes the execution of a plan fails for whatever reason. Our Special Forces are the best trained, most skilled and their plans cover every known contingency but yet they sometimes fail. Why? The 'Chaos" effect. No matter what you plan, something will be out of place or different than you planned for. You could go to sleep every night with a loaded, fully automatic weapon and still get got.
Whatever gives you a feeling of security is what works for you. Practice what you would do would be a good thing. I have had the privilege of watching Special Ops rehearse a real raid and it's done over and over. Slow motion, then full speed until it's done right. Still men (or in our case men or women) could get killed. An example is Ryan Owens, the Navy Seal who gave his life on a recent mission.
Go out, have fun and enjoy the lifestyle you have chosen and don't sweat the petty shit.
Rob
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DrJean
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Wow.
If someone wants to kill ya, and you don't know it, odds are they just might succeed.
I figured we were talking about the average thug.
If my shotgun doesn't shoot, or if a guy comes barging through an open door, well that's what the sidearm is for!
If someone wants to kill ya, and you don't know it, odds are they just might succeed.
I figured we were talking about the average thug.
If my shotgun doesn't shoot, or if a guy comes barging through an open door, well that's what the sidearm is for!
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