Shotgun in a Van?

[TMG51]

It ain't the 'spread' that makes a short barrel shotgun a Title II controlled weapon, it's the concealability.

Obviously not true, or else all handguns would be illegal!

Of course, California would probably like to make all handguns illegal.

The full answer is that it is a combination of concealability and spread, lots of projectiles discharged in close quarters. Those special 410 loads still don't have nearly as much volume.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I suggest you review the Wikipedia article on the "National Firearms Act" or, if you don't trust Wikipedia, any other good source on it.

Short barreled rifles are treated identically to short barreled shotguns, so johnny b is correct.

 

[TMG51]

I suggest you review the Wikipedia article on the "National Firearms Act" or, if you don't trust Wikipedia, any other good source on it.

Short barreled rifles are treated identically to short barreled shotguns, so johnny b is correct.

Come on, now. If I take a bolt action rifle and saw it down to 17", I've just committed a felony, even though that item would make a pitiful concealed weapon as compared to any handgun in existence.

The law is there to prevent modifications because you need some set of dry and literal criteria to prevent people from creating, for example, sawed off shotguns.

I wasn't intending to be argumentative, only clear. It cannot be plainly said that concealment is the sole characteristic when it clearly isn't.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

 It cannot be plainly said that concealment is the sole characteristic when it clearly isn't.

"Originally, pistols and revolvers were to be regulated as strictly as machine guns; towards that end, cutting down a rifle or shotgun to circumvent the handgun restrictions by making a concealable weapon was taxed as strictly as a machine gun.[5]"

 

[TMG51]

I'm not sure how we're talking about the same thing and different things at the same time. The pertinent phrase in your quote is "to circumvent." The law wants rifles to be rifles and handguns to be handguns because shortening rifles allows for other tomfoolery. A handgun is still more concealable than a shortened rifle.

 

[minimotos95]

The thing about 410 is yes there are three or four 00 buck pellets going at an acceptable rate for a handgun, but 00 buck has an extremely poor sectional density, each pellet winds up being less effective than what in today's society is considered the minimum one should carry, the 380acp, of cpurse I believe even a 25 acp is acceptable to carry, just as it was 40 years ago. What the 410 gains is you get either 3/4 misses or hits per shot. But again for a average person emptying 6 rounds accurately from a quality 380 like a sig 238 might take less time than doing 2 long double action pulls on the 410 wheel gun, most people have problems putting rounds on target quick and accurately with DA trigger pulls.

A single 00 pellet is only 55ish grains and closer to 32acp in diameter and performance, with 32acp ball having a slight edge on terminal and external ballistics. Considering it's fired from a revolver sized for 45LC that's just unacceptable to me, maybe you can be comfortable with that power to weight ratio but I am not.
The "spread", firing 00 at 5 meters all 4 pellets hit within inches, at least with the raging judge I tested.

The only reason the judge isn't an SBS under federal law is because the barrel is rifled and it's "designed" to fire a 45LC, it just happens to fire a 410 fine from the same chamber which is fine under federal law. California might have another definition of what's a handgun or short barrel shotgun or California bans a whole list of handguns by name, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge or governor was on that list. Actually if I recall correctly they have a list of what's approved for import to the state because they couldn't keep up with banning handguns by name.

Title 2 weapons(SBSs, SBSs, machine guns, suppressors) aren't hard to get, just a long wait, but travelling with them can be a nightmare, just driving cross-country is a hassle let alone full time traveling.
Interesting non-firearms can't be title 2. There's no tax stamp or wait for a 12ga side by side muzzle loader regardless of barrel length. And airguns now come with suppressors(Gamo I think is the one the ATF gave the go ahead to)

 

[johnny b]

TMG51,
Unfortunately you're trying to use logic and common sense against a law put into place by politicians....they were just as screwed up in 1934 as they are now.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 (signed into law in 1938 by FDR) was created to try and curb the prohibition era gangsterism rampant at that point in history. As if Al Capone, 'Machine Gun' Kelly, and the rest were actually going to 'obey' this new law and stop using explosives, shortened weapons and  machine guns.

If you remember the Bonnie and Clyde movie, Clyde's preferred gun was a BAR full auto rifle that he would cut the barrel and stock down so he could conceal it under a trench coat. This was a military gun in 30.06 caliber and a 20 round box magazine. It could cut thru both sides of a car body with ease, unlike a pistol or even a Tommy Gun which fired .45 acp pistol ammo. Up close it packed a pretty good wallop, but was not much good at distance.

 

[akrvbob]

I think we've all had our say on the topic of the Taurus Judge.

Now, back to the original point, which is a shotgun in a van.

To my mind the main reason to carry a shotgun in a van is self-defense in bear country.

The second reason is the incredible effect of the sound of racking a round into a pump action. That togehter with yelling out, "I've got a shotgun and I just called the police" should end a fight before it starts.
Bob

 

[highdesertranger]

I agree the 870 is a great gun. however I shoot left handed and find the 870 safety awkward. so I chose a Mossberg model 500, it has a thumb safety that can be operated left or right handed. I also agree about the 2 barrels I have the 26" hunting barrel and a 20" rifled slug barrel with iron sights. highdesertranger

 

[LeeRevell]

I also favor the Rem 870 12 gauge pump.  I have three of them.  My primary for defense has the original Express barrel shortened to 20", to match the 8-round tube.  Had a folding PG stock (good for vehicle carry) but changed back to the factory wood buttstock.  The six-round Side Saddle carrier and 13 rounds on the sling means I keep plenty of ammo on hand - though when traveling the ammo is stowed separately for legality.
My other 870s are the longer barreled Wingmasters, mine and my late Dad's squirrel/duck guns.  I also have one in 16 gauge.
I also carried the 870 in the Navy on shipboard security detail.  I know it intimately.  I trust it.

 

[LeeRevell]

I would avoid any type of 'home made' shotshell projectiles, as this could provide fodder for your perp/victim's defense lawyer to use against you.  This doesn't include basic handloading with the correct supplies - cast lead slugs, normal shot, etc.  Remember, the perp or his family will hire a lawyer who WILL use any method to throw the case in his/their favor. 
Factory loads aren't that expensive.  Save the home-grown stuff for funny Youtube videos.

 

[LeeRevell]

Florida has "Castle Law" too, as well as "Stand Your Ground" which is an entirely separate thing.
But any shooting is of course investigated.  Unlike what the detractors say, these laws do not promote a "wild west shoot first" situation.  We need to make sure we are in the right, and the shooting is justified.
Even in a van we usually have something at hand to use as a weapon if our gun isn't available.

 

[USExplorer]

I never use cut shells for anything but screwing around on the range, and even then, I am very careful to check the barrel after each shot. I once fired a cut shell with an inadequate load of powder, and the shell opened up inside the barrel, leaving the plastic half hull stuck inside. I had to shove a 1/2 inch pipe down the barrel to ram the plastic out. Numerous other times, the cut shell opened up or tumbled in mid-flight. The compression of the plastic hull may also generate pressures in excess of specs for shotshells. While most shotguns can handle pressures far in excess of SAAMI specs without exploding, it is still unwise to exceed them.

 

[GrayWhale]

It ain't the 'spread' that makes a short barrel shotgun a Title II controlled weapon, it's the concealability.
As far as the size of 410 ammo...it is not at all like the 'pistol' shot available:



Personally I would not want to get hit with these fired from a Judge:

 

I wouldn't want to get hit with anything, not even a BB gun nor a rock from a slingshot.

But that still doesn't explain way the fact that there are better rounds and shells than others.

 

[ArtW]

Texas also has 'stand your ground'
Contrary to what the media says, this means absolutely nothing except that you are not required to attempt flight (and be shot, stabbed, or kicked in the back as like as not) before defending yourself
that said, backing away is still a good idea, done safely

 

[GrayWhale]

Texas also has 'stand your ground'
Contrary to what the media says, this means absolutely nothing except that you are not required to attempt flight (and be shot, stabbed, or kicked in the back as like as not) before defending yourself
that said, backing away is still a good idea, done safely

The problem though, you can still get screwed over by the system; like Zimmerman in Florida, which also has the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground provision.

 

[Gunny]

A good shotgun is an excellent close quarters weapon if used properly. As another poster mentioned you will lose much of your hearing after that first shot, that's when eyesight, reactions and positioning help out. 

I disagree with those that want to intimidate someone by 'racking' a round in the chamber. If I 'lock and load' because someone or something is trying to get in my domain, whatever I am living in, I have the full intent to kill it. In my civilian life I have never so much as brandished a weapon, have never felt the need to even when mildly threatened. 

I carried a shotgun and a pistol when I traveled extensively and sometimes my Barrett when going to a competition. It was illegal in Ca. because it was a .50 BMG but I avoid California anyway.

If you get a shotgun get a good one, practice your movements, know your limitations and it's limitations. There is no such thing as the perfect weapon for all occasions, the best we can hope for is we never need to use it and if we do, we hit and kill what we aim at.  

Good Luck and Safe Travels..Rob

 

[ArtW]

Zimmerman didn't get screwed by the system, he was exonerated
it was the media, social media and threats from social justice types that screwed him
in fact without all the hollering from the social justice typed, he'd not even have faced charges, the case was full on political grandstanding
there are STILL folks that think Martin was a darling child that did nothing wrong, thanks to all the race baiting

 

[highdesertranger]

come on lets get back on topic which is a "shotgun in a van". highdesertranger

 

[Gunny]

I could give lessons and pass on knowledge of weaponry and it's uses. But for real life in a van type situation Vantramp lives it the to the fullest. He, or someone who sets up camp in some remote areas would be one of few I would defer to in use of a weapon.