Guns - to Carry One or Not?

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ArtW said:
The only person who should feel intimidated by the sight of an openly carried firearm is someone with inimical intent toward the carrier of the firearm
Do you have ill intent toward me? No? Then my firearm isn't a threat to you.
You do have inimical intent toward me? then I do want you to be intimidated, that way I'm less likely to have to USE the gun
I don't want to shoot anyone, I don't want to go to court, and if someone sees the gun and decides not to rob me, after all, that's a good thing, for both of us
That's called a deterrent
That said, I don't often carry open, because of the number of people who aren't inimical to me who have an irrational fear of a man with a gun, who might be folks I'd like to know

There's what you think should be and then there's what is. I've never been around guns, I am not comfortable around them. Seeing someone openly carry a gun only raises worries. I'm sure that I'm not alone.  It makes me think that person is possibly hostile and a little bit nuts. That may be entirely irrational - but heck why is it rational to openly carry a gun in a safe area? The odds that that gun will ever be used to protect anyone or ever deter someone in a public place are astronomical. 

I've lived in mostly middle class areas all my life. I've never been robbed, seen anyone robbed, seen any place held up....Maybe I'm lucky but the last time I remember seeing an act of violence of any kind was in high school. 

Concealed weapons are different but I've lived in quite a few different states; I see no reason to openly carry guns in the places I've lived in.
 
As to accidental deaths from guns - with the millions of guns in the U.S. - of course its going to happen. It's probably surprising that it doesn't happen more often. 


Kids and guns don’t mix, especially when those guns are carelessly left in unlocked cabinets or even in plain view. Accidental shootings resulted in 642 deaths in 2009, placing them seventh on this list. Firearms are the second-leading cause of non-natural deaths for kids, typically from a gun the kid finds somewhere around the house, according to a University of Utah report that mentioned additional horrific statistics. About two-thirds of accidental shooting deaths happen in the home, with the kid shooting himself to death in 45 percent of the cases and friends or family members pulling the trigger in the remainder. More than 50 percent of American households have a gun in the house, and, in one survey, 10 percent said they had loaded firearms in unlocked locations that were easily accessible to kids. There is obviously a need to keep guns in locked, inaccessible and child-resistant locations and store them unloaded.



As to deaths and injuries from guns every year - the number is astonishing. It's impossible for whatever good guns do as a deterrent or as self-defense to even come close to the number of deaths and injuries associated with gun use. More Americans are killed using guns in a two year period than during the entire Vietnam war.  We are a gun country  - that's the way it is and that's not going  change;  but there's not a shred of evidence that that's made us any safer. Far from it. 


In 2010, guns took the lives of 31,076 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings.  This is the equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour.1

73,505 Americans were treated in hospital emergency departments for non-fatal gunshot wounds in 2010.2

[size=small]Firearms were the third-leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide in 2010, following poisoning and motor vehicle accidents.3

[size=small][size=x-small]http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/#footnote_2_5975
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/#footnote_2_5975[/size][/size][/size]
[size=small]http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/#footnote_2_5975[/size]
 
Yes, it is irrational, the result of growing up around anti gun people and absorbing the bias, and the site you posted shows the number of accidental shooting at 600 per year, far fewer than Auto accidents, Poisonings, Falls, Fires, Choking, or even Drowning, you can add medical malpractice to that list BTW
The other site you posted is blatantly anti gun, and is very biased

At this point it's obvious what your real intent was in starting this debate, have a nice day
 
I was a cop for thirty years. I worked for San Diego PD from 1979-1990. From 1980-1985 San Diego officers were involved in some 160 gunfights; roughly one gunfight every two weeks. The toll was high. 90 suspects killed, over 40 wounded, five officers killed and nine wounded. We learned a lot of lessons about violence the hard way in that five years. BTW, for reference, that was more shoot-outs than LA, New York, and Detroit combined during that period. It was a crazy-violent time on the border. I have the ultimate respect for those men and women with whom I was fortunate enough to work with in those days. They were genuinely a breed apart, and the fortitude they brought to the job every day was exemplary.

I absolutely adore folks who believe in "open carry" and naively believe that they're somehow protected. It's a TERRIBLE tactical decision. I KNOW they have a gun... I'm an unknown to them. They're also the first target for anyone who wants to do harm, so while they're being targeted, the rest of us can find the real bad guy and deal with the situation.

Whether to carry a gun or not is a very personal decision; one, unfortunately, undertaken my a large number of folks who are not prepared to shoulder the oppressive responsibility that accompanies it. Below are "Rules for Gunfighting." If those "rules" intimidate you, sound harsh, or are otherwise something you don't think you can do, then please don't carry a gun because someone will take it from you and use it on you the moment you take it out.

With that in mind, here are a couple of quotes that are salient here from a tactical perspective:

"The only thing a pistol is good for is to fight you way back to the rifle you shouldn't have laid down to begin with." Jeff Cooper... and...

The old Marine Sergeant Major was attending an awards dinner in his dress blues when a lady commented on him wearing his 1911 .45 pistol, cocked and locked. “Sergeant Major, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?” “NO Ma’am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.”

And last, if you're going to carry a gun, carrying a gun without a tactical plan is just plain stupid and will get you killed. Carrying a gun implies that you're willing to enter into a gunfight. There are rules for gunfighting that everyone who carries a gun should understand thoroughly if they intend to survive that incident with as few injuries as possible:

RULES FOR A GUNFIGHT:

1. Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap – life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap – funerals are expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you’re probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell “Fire!” Why “Fire”? Cops will come with the Fire Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause then to lose concentration and will…. and who is going to summon help if you yell ”Intruder,” “Glock” or “Winchester?”

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on “pucker factor” than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won’t work. “No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy.”

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember, sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don’t drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one-handed and off-hand shooting. That’s how you live if hit in your “good” side.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don’t (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.

22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than ”4″.

25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. “All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket.” At a practice session, throw your gun into the mud, then make sure it still works. You can clean it later.

26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc.

27. Regardless of whether justified or not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.

28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, “He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I’m sorry, Officer, but I’m very upset now. I can’t say anything more. Please speak with my attorney.”

Finally, the Rules For Un-armed Combat:

1: Never be unarmed.
 
Very good hepcat and thank you for your service.

One thing I think people aren't mentioning is the inherent risk a gun can be in the hands of an inexperienced person. I don't think that most young people are mature enough to always make good decisions. As I recall from my youth there were plenty of times I saw little nothing arguments turn into fisticuffs at the drop of a hat. Add in a bit of alcohol and a perfectly nice young man with a bright future could easily make a wrong decision and instead of throwing that punch might throw bullets instead and spend his life in prison. I'm pretty sure by allowing youths and adult hotheads the right to carry all the time is not doing all we can to protect them from themselves. Just think back to your youth and watch the young deer butt heads and think about that. Kids need to be protected from themselves


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
"Carrying in a safe area....."
No such thing as a 'safe' area. Criminals and terrorists these last several years shows that shootings can occur ANYWHERE, ANYTIME", period.
Do NOT believe in "gun free zones". These are hunting areas for killers.
If you are accosted by the goblin and you are unarmed, you are immediately a victim, trusting that letting the goblin have his way he won't kill you. Do you really want to trust and hope he will not harm you or your loved ones?
If you are accosted and are armed, you have the opportunity to protect yourself and your loved ones. I may be shot, I may die, but I will do my best to make sure the goblin dies first.
Some people have the mindset to NOT be a victim, some do not. This is a personal decision. No one can make it for you.
I have been shot at, it's an amazingly vivid experience, really clears the mind.
 
I've been grazed, it's no fun, I imagine a square hit is worse. In my case, it would have crippled me
I count it to my credit the graze was not the end of that
I count it to my discredit I broke rule 1
 
Hi to all here.

I can relate to being shot at---in fact, I was hit and luckily the person who shot me thought I was dead. I worked at a convenience store that got robbed, and this happened while I was still living in Florida. Yeah, I agree with others here about that sort of thing: it tends to change one's perspectives. In fact, after healing up and quitting the c-store business at my family's urging, I took classes on firearm safety as well as met all the requirements to get a CCW in Florida. I have kept it ever since and my current state of South Dakota accepted it. Since I am now a resident of South Dakota, my CCW now reflects that.

As to the controversy about carrying or not carrying, to each his/her own. People have the right to do as they see fit regarding such a controversial issue. I'm doing what's best for me and that's MY business. If a person chooses to not carry, that's THEIR business as far as I'm concerned.


VanGrrl57 :)
 
cortttt said:
As to accidental deaths from guns - with the millions of guns in the U.S. - of course its going to happen. It's probably surprising that it doesn't happen more often. 



As to deaths and injuries from guns every year - the number is astonishing. It's impossible for whatever good guns do as a deterrent or as self-defense to even come close to the number of deaths and injuries associated with gun use. More Americans are killed using guns in a two year period than during the entire Vietnam war.  We are a gun country  - that's the way it is and that's not going  change;  but there's not a shred of evidence that that's made us any safer. Far from it. 


[size=small]http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/#footnote_2_5975[/size]

Sorry to inform you, but the source cited does not tell where it gets the information from.

No credibility to a anti gun organization that is pulling statistics from thin air, and twists the wording to suit its agenda. There is a difference between being killed, and killing yourself.

2/3 of all gun deaths are suicide (CDC)  These are people determined to take their own lives. If no gun is handy, they will find another method.  Japan has a 50% higher suicide rate than the US has a gun death rate.  (No guns allowed in Japan) 

As a civilian, I have had to pull a gun three times in defence of my family.  I never needed to pull the trigger.  I will keep my weapons.  So will both my conservative and liberal family members.  Not having a gun is a personal choice that is allowed in this country, just like having one. That is a persons personal choice, not a mandated requirement.
 
cortttt said:
why is it rational to openly carry a gun in a safe area? The odds that that gun will ever be used to protect anyone or ever deter someone in a public place are astronomical

So what is a safe area? A shopping mall, a church, your own home? Getting to be people are being murdered in all the safe areas. My largest pet peeve is no gun zones. Something like 8 out of ten mass murderers shot people in them because THEY felt safer to not being shot themselves.
 
Gunny said:
...

People seem to think shooting someone is this clinical, clean process. It's not. It's blood, guts and gore. But the video games make it look like fun and all.

So true, Rob.  I was a medic way back when, rolling up on gunshot wounds is always a messy scene, it's chaotic, it's gory, and it's heartbreaking; wouldn't wish it on anyone.  Kudos to your medic, that is a nasty grouping of injuries to dealing with in the dirt and dust... and so damned far from advanced medical care.
 
well back on topic

if you're not sure about a tradition firearm they do produce some nice air rifles/pistols that would fend off the coyotes and whatnot,i have seen guys on t.v. hunting deer with them
 
I have asked for my war story comments to be removed, had absolutely nothing to do with the thread. I will bow out of this discussion.

Rob
 
DannyB1954 said:
So what is a safe area? A shopping mall, a church, your own home? Getting to be people are being murdered in all the safe areas. My largest pet peeve is no gun zones. Something like 8 out of ten mass murderers shot people in them because THEY felt safer to not being shot themselves.

I don't think your statistic about 8 out of 10 mass murders occurring in gun free zones is accurate. I think it is more like 13% but I imagine you are thinking about incidents where a stranger was shooting rather than the more technical FBI definition of a mass murder (which is any murder that involves 4 or more). I like gun free zones because even if they do make it more likely that some deranged stranger will choose that as a location, those type of gun crimes are really rare in relation to more typical gun crimes. It is hard to know how effective gun-free zones are though in terms of preventing things like accidental shootings or those based on things like domestic violence but there are some studies which show that they do. There also is no data which shows that they are less safe. I think the real problem here is a lack of data and one of my frustrations with groups like the NRA is that they oppose allowing the CDC to study such things. That seems dumb to me. Either gunfree zones are effective or they aren't and knowing the answer to that question seems like it would be useful when making policy.

My observation though is that they are based more on comfort than safety. i.e. some people really are not comfortable around guns.  If I see someone open carrying in a business, I leave. It is a decision based entirely on my discomfort and distrust of guns rather than any logical assessment of my actual risk. Since so many others around here feel similarly, it only makes sense for a business to adopt a no gun policy. Even then though, they don't frisk people or anything so you can still have your gun, just not in the open. Open carry is what prompts businesses and schools to adopt those policies. It would be better for everyone in my mind though if such decisions were based on actual facts and like it or not, those facts do not yet exist.
 
Most states did not allow open carry long before there were gun free zones, so I don't think open carry is what prompted gun free zones, I think it had to do more with the rash of gang related, drug related shootings of the 80s, and a lot of businesses did disallow concealed carry on their premises back when the CHL was first put into place here in Texas
There were enough people refusing to shop there, along with enough legal liability for the businesses, to change their minds pretty quickly, though there are plenty that still don't allow it, and frisk or no, if they have proper signage, and you enter with your concealed or openly carried gun, you are violating the law
The CDC, as good as they are on some subjects, has shown a very obvious anti gun bias in the past, I'd distrust their figures
I'll take the actual ability to defend myself over warm fuzzy feelings based on hope any day
 
Gary68 said:
well back on topic

if you're not sure about a tradition firearm they do produce some nice air rifles/pistols that would fend off the coyotes and whatnot,i have seen guys on t.v. hunting deer with them

The air rifles used to hunt deer are not the same ones that you can get at Walmart. They are 50 caliber, (which is a half an inch in diameter).
 
I don't ever worry about gun violence most of it happens amongst gun owners, so I say let nature take care of them.
 
The very term "gun violence" minimizes the actual problem.  The violence problem is largely associated with unresolved mental health issues, and our society's willingness to turn to violence to solve disputes.  Assigning a role in those issues to guns is meaningless.  There is no "gun violence," only violence where some kind of weapon is used by one or more of the parties to gain an advantage.

In England some years ago (where guns are hard to come by) an emergency room physicians' group called for the banning of long kitchen knives because THAT was the weapon of choice that sliced and diced the patients they saw in their ERs.  

We need to get the societal violence under control, and we need to have an effective mental health system in place.  Unfortunately, we're doing neither right now, and as long as "guns" or "knives" remain the problem in the collective minds of the press and citizenry, we won't be able to do anything about the real issues.
 
ArtW said:
Most states did not allow open carry long before there were gun free zones, so I don't think open carry is what prompted gun free zones, I think it had to do more with the rash of gang related, drug related shootings of the 80s, and a lot of businesses did disallow concealed carry on their premises back when the CHL was first put into place here in Texas
There were enough people refusing to shop there, along with enough legal liability for the businesses, to change their minds pretty quickly, though there are plenty that still don't allow it, and frisk or no, if they have proper signage, and you enter with your concealed or openly carried gun, you are violating the law
The CDC, as good as they are on some subjects, has  shown a very obvious anti gun bias in the past, I'd distrust their figures
I'll take the actual ability to defend myself over warm fuzzy feelings based on hope any day

I'd just like to point out that the City of Tombstone was a "gun free zone" at the time of the shootout at the OK corral in 1881.  Prohibition of ANYTHING doesn't work in the US.  For proof, just look at the 18th Amendment, the war on drugs, and just about any other act prohibited by law...  that happens ALL of the time.
 
DannyB1954 said:
The air rifles used to hunt deer are not the same ones that you can get at Walmart. They are 50 caliber, (which is a half an inch in diameter).

these were like in the .22cal range and they were take all types of small game with them,like the old co2 pellet rifles but better
i have been thinking of checking then out because of how little noise they make
 
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