So why is Van Dwelling illegal?

[WheelEstate USA]

Stealth is the least of our concerns. We were hardly stealth in the motorhome and learned how to take advantage of "creative parking".
since we have an address in southern Az, we can tell the LEOs we don't "live" in our rig....we're retired and enjoying some travel time.

I don't "Sir" the cops, but I am polite. If they do talk to us, I will ask nicely where they recommend we go to park and then move along.

Stealth be damned....I'm not doing anything to be ashamed of and refuse to hide.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I've always assumed that the laws against living in your vehicle were a variation on the vagrancy laws.

I remember the phrase "no visible means of support" as being somehow related to whether one was, or was, not, a "vagrant".

I think the assumption was that someone with no visible means of support probably resorted to either begging or petty theft to get by. The vagrancy law permitted the cops to deal with such a person WITHOUT catching him red handed begging or stealing.

I was doing a little research on this on Wikipedia and I came across an article on what may have been the first vagrancy law - A British Vagrancy Act of 1824.

The Vagrancy Act 1824 (5 Geo. 4. c. 83) is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom that made it an offence to sleep rough or beg. Anyone in England and Wales found to be homeless or in trying to cadge subsistence money could be arrested. Critics, such as William Wilberforce, condemned the Act for being a catch-all offence because it did not consider the circumstances as to why an individual might be placed in such a predicament.

Background

The law was enacted to deal with specific problems that England and Wales faced following the conclusion of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815. Nine years after the end of hostilities with France, the British Army and British Navy had undergone a massive reduction in numbers. Discharged military personnel, who had no jobs or accommodation, were living rough on the streets or in makeshift camps. At the same time, a massive influx of economic migrants from Ireland and Scotland arrived in England, especially London, in search of work.
Lawmakers became concerned parish constables were becoming ineffective in controlling the increased numbers of homeless and penniless urban poor. Furthermore - medieval Pass laws which gave travelers permission for free movement through a given district - were no longer considered to be effective.

The most interesting thing about this law is the actual title it was introduced with:

"An Act for the punishment of idle and disorderly persons, rogues and vagabonds."

That pretty much says it all, don't it? The whole Puritan "Idle hands are the devils playground", no layabouts or ne'erdowells allowed.

Regards
John

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

the cops rousted me twice. since i am in one town for work, i had to weigh sticking up for my rights to refuse to let them see inside or talk to them, or let them look in the van, be upfront about what im doing. i played up the fact i didnt want to lose my job just because i lost my home. I chose the later about 8 months ago, and since letting them look inside have never been bothered since. i park in a park and ride right below a police barracks, a jail, and 5 mins from the sheriff office.

If i was traveling, i may have took the hardline approach above, but we all have to weigh our risks and rewards.
I should note that i havent found any ordinance in this area prohibiting vandwelling. So location is a factor too.

 

[SoulRaven]

Stealth is the least of our concerns. We were hardly stealth in the motorhome and learned how to take advantage of "creative parking".
since we have an address in southern Az, we can tell the LEOs we don't "live" in our rig....we're retired and enjoying some travel time.

I don't "Sir" the cops, but I am polite. If they do talk to us, I will ask nicely where they recommend we go to park and then move along.

Stealth be damned....I'm not doing anything to be ashamed of and refuse to hide.

That's the same thing I think, some of these guys are always talking about stealth, which to me translates into hiding, which to other people translates into "what are they hiding".

I think the cops make conscious decisions every day, as to whether they wish to enforce some law or another. Truth be told, everybody everywhere, is probably breaking some stupid law. There are still laws on the books that state: "Before entering an intersection with a motorized vehicle, the operator must come to a full stop, and walk the intersection, waving a lantern if night time, before proceeding through said intersection."

So if the cops really want to hassle you, or you piss them off, they'll find some reason to cause you trouble whether living in your van happens to be illegal in that town or not.

By being cordial, and not acting like you have anything to hide, they will treat you in kind. If they tell me they want to search my van, I tell them "sure, but I'd appreciate it if you try not to make too big of a mess" (This has happened to me a number of times at the Mexican border) They did do a cursory search a couple of times, but more often, I think because of my actions/attitude, they just waved me through.

Never ever tell a cop they need a search warrant, or you're asking for a lot of trouble.

My worst and scariest time ever happened in Mexico, and had nothing to do with camping. I was driving on a remote highway, when I was suddenly surrounded by 4 military looking jeeps who forced me to pull over at gunpoint. They held me at gunpoint, and proceeded to strip my westy down to bare metal, using crow bars, and tossing every single thing out into the dirt. None of them seemed to speak any English. Then as quickly as they had appeared, they were off again. They left me standing there, with the remnants of what was left of my van on the side of the road. To my knowledge they didn't take anything, and to this day I don't know whether they were military, or bandito's, or what. I picked up my personal belongings, and left my trashed van interior by the side of the road, and headed back to the USA. Haven't ventured back into Mexico since.

In the US, the only big problem I ever had was when I had a cargo van. The cops came a knockin about 2 am. Of course I couldn't see them to verify whether they were police or not, so I had read to not answer, so I didn't. After being scared to death for about 20 minutes they finally left. I waited till daylight and then left. I didn't get more than 2 blocks before getting pulled over, and getting ordered out of my van at gunpoint. They proceeded to tow my van, and arrest me for felony eluding, resisting arrest, and failure to comply with a law enforcement officer. This was all for me not answering their knock on my van, nothing else. I got fined $5,000 and 6 months in jail suspended. I had the opportunity to talk to the arresting cops, and they were not the least bit sympathetic other than they did say that if I would have answered their knock, there probably would have been no trouble. When I told them that I didn't answer because I was scared, and could not see that they were actually the police, one of them said "Normal people don't hide in criminal's cargo vans. If you want to be treated like a normal citizen then get a normal van." They never once complained about me camping on a city street.

If the cops come a knockin, you better answer, but if your attitude is good, you should be okay.

Jay, Margie, & Bindi too, this wasn't all aimed at you, you seem to be pretty level headed to me, but I thought this all might be either relative or informative to others who read it too.

---

the cops rousted me twice. since i am in one town for work, i had to weigh sticking up for my rights to refuse to let them see inside or talk to them, or let them look in the van, be upfront about what im doing. i played up the fact i didnt want to lose my job just because i lost my home. I chose the later about 8 months ago, and since letting them look inside have never been bothered since. i park in a park and ride right below a police barracks, a jail, and 5 mins from the sheriff office.

If i was traveling, i may have took the hardline approach above, but we all have to weigh our risks and rewards.
I should note that i havent found any ordinance in this area prohibiting vandwelling. So location is a factor too.

I think being nice rather than being one of those "I know my rights!" zealots will go a long way in keeping you out of trouble.

When I got into so much trouble, I wasn't even trying to be contrary. I really was scared! I had no windows, and no way of knowing whether it was really cops, or thugs who wanted to rob me.

At least with windows you know who and what you're dealing with.

 

[akrvbob]

Is there a reason you didn't look out the passenger side window? I've had cops know on my door in my box van and I just looked out the passenger window and saw it was a cop and opened the door for them. A neighbor had complained and so I moved on, no big deal

I lived in a box van for 6 years and had a two cops at the door the whole time but never had any real problems. None like you've had!

Cargo vans work great in commercial and industrial areas and in a few residential areas like large apartment complexes. But not in true residential areas.

And the opposite is true for passenger vans. They work great in true residential areas but poorly in commercial or industrial areas.

If you use them to their strengths you won't have any problems with either. I never once in 6 years parked my box van in a residential area, that would be asking for trouble. But parked in a mall, store, docks, warehouse areas--never a problem!!
Bob
Bob

 

[David]

There is one thing I think a lot of you overlook. Society and our govts as a whole depend on the bulk of the population being good little busy bees contributing to society, by living in a house, working 40hr work weeks and paying your taxes.

By living in a van you are able to skip out of having to be a good little busy bee and you do not contribute your part to society. We have a short cut in a sense to enjoying our lives and not having to be that little worker bee.

The problem is if there aren't enough worker bees society as a whole suffers, so society has to shun anyone whom refuses to be that good little worker bee. That's why it's not ok to be homeless and that's what they consider vandwellers.

 

[SoulRaven]

Is there a reason you didn't look out the passenger side window? I've had cops know on my door in my box van and I just looked out the passenger window and saw it was a cop and opened the door for them. A neighbor had complained and so I moved on, no big deal

I lived in a box van for 6 years and had a two cops at the door the whole time but never had any real problems. None like you've had!

Cargo vans work great in commercial and industrial areas and in a few residential areas like large apartment complexes. But not in true residential areas.

And the opposite is true for passenger vans. They work great in true residential areas but poorly in commercial or industrial areas.

If you use them to their strengths you won't have any problems with either. I never once in 6 years parked my box van in a residential area, that would be asking for trouble. But parked in a mall, store, docks, warehouse areas--never a problem!!
Bob
Bob

I had a divider curtain between the front and back, so I could not see out the front windows at all, and not knowing who was really out there, I was scared to move to give away that I was in the van.

I was parked in a warehouse area.

 

[GypsyJoe]

In the US, the only big problem I ever had was when I had a cargo van. The cops came a knockin about 2 am. Of course I couldn't see them to verify whether they were police or not, so I had read to not answer, so I didn't. After being scared to death for about 20 minutes they finally left. I waited till daylight and then left. I didn't get more than 2 blocks before getting pulled over, and getting ordered out of my van at gunpoint. They proceeded to tow my van, and arrest me for felony eluding, resisting arrest, and failure to comply with a law enforcement officer. This was all for me not answering their knock on my van, nothing else. I got fined $5,000 and 6 months in jail suspended. I had the opportunity to talk to the arresting cops, and they were not the least bit sympathetic other than they did say that if I would have answered their knock, there probably would have been no trouble. When I told them that I didn't answer because I was scared, and could not see that they were actually the police, one of them said "Normal people don't hide in criminal's cargo vans. If you want to be treated like a normal citizen then get a normal van." They never once complained about me camping on a city street.

If the cops come a knockin, you better answer, but if your attitude is good, you should be okay.

Jay, Margie, & Bindi too, this wasn't all aimed at you, you seem to be pretty level headed to me, but I thought this all might be either relative or informative to others who read it too

I think being nice rather than being one of those "I know my rights!" zealots will go a long way in keeping you out of trouble.

This is probably the best city van dwelling advice I've seen on here. The fact is the police can do whatever they like. Being confrontational or trying to circumvent them just spells trouble. This is me speaking as a regular citizen and future van dweller. It also gives me food for thought as to figuring out some way of parking that will avoid trouble. I do not like interactions LEO's and would rather avoid it all costs.

 

[communistsrthieves]

That and bathing....Two words....GYM MEMBERSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!

You can shower, shave, and keep out of the streets until "nap time" at the gym. A + if the gym has a pool and hottub, you will be living better then many homeowners. Gives you something to do and keeps you out of the cold in winter and out of the heat in summer. What with all the public restrooms everywhere poop is not a problem. Just park near a wal mart or close enough to a gas station.

I have lived out of a van twice. Once after my drug addict father stole from me and screwed me over and another time when my drug addict biological sister screwed me over. Wasnt homeless that long in either instance because I was working. If I had to Id be willing to live out of my vehicle again. People who try to or want to make homelessness or van-dwelling illegal tick me off because I remember HAVING TO live out of my van after being messed over.  I have never and will never con, do drugs, or any of that kind of crap and I despise con-artistry, thievery, drugs, and that kind of stuff. Not everyone who lives in a van is a derilict but some people seem to thing that if you are living in a van you must be a criminal.

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

yeah the problem with laws assuming you dont have legal means to dispose of waste is just that, an assumption. You dont know if they have blackwater tanks and go to dump stations, use public or private restrooms, portipottis, composting etc. Since you dont know, you cant hold people accountable for something illegal they might conceivably do. a house is bound to a place, so dumping waste or moving house to a public restroom arent options. tho i dont agree even with some of those laws, as outhouses worked fine for centuries and some ban those and composting.

 

[gcal]

There is one thing I think a lot of you overlook. Society and our govts as a whole depend on the bulk of the population being good little busy bees contributing to society, by living in a house, working 40hr work weeks and paying your taxes.

By living in a van you are able to skip out of having to be a good little busy bee and you do not contribute your part to society. We have a short cut in a sense to enjoying our lives and not having to be that little worker bee.

The problem is if there aren't enough worker bees society as a whole suffers, so society has to shun anyone whom refuses to be that good little worker bee. That's why it's not ok to be homeless and that's what they consider vandwellers.

David, I think you are over estimating the attractiveness of your life style to the average person. Society is the way it I because most people don't want to live that way. They want their big houses and their 401k's and the corporate jobs and the nice neighborhoods with the good schools. We certainly did for years.They think you are odd, maybe up to something, that you are jealous of them and might do something to act out that jealousy. If you read this forum and others regularly, you will see that they are right more than we like to admit.  Didn't someone just mention a forum with instructions for breaking into vending machines? 

So, live the way you want, but know that few others will "get it." Take the chip off your shoulder and adjust your own attitude. After all, if it wasn't for all those tax paying worker bees, you would not have the roads, the parks, the monetary system, the shops, the vehicle, or anything else that supports your lifestyle.

 

[Bela's Mom]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"By living in a van you are able to skip out of having to be a good little busy bee and you do not contribute your part to society."[/font]

I started working when I was 15 years old. I think 47 years of being a busy little bee and contributing to society is enough for me.  And I still pay taxes....gasoline tax, sales tax, income tax, etc, etc.

 

[John_Camping]

I think it's about fear and finances. The wealthier the community the less it's members have really encountered or gotten to know poor people. They fear poor people will bring/cause crime, degrade the appearance of the community they built, and lower property values. And most people rich or poor fear what they don't know or understand. Rich/city people aren't that different from us, they just have different goals, resources, knowledge about the world and they, just like us, fear anything they perceive as a threat to their way of life. To slightly revise the quote... Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance and/or fear.

 

[Sameer]

I am retired and a traveler...! I don't hide and I fear anything. I consider my van.. a mini-RV. I am just doing what millions of retired people do all the time. Travel-Camp-Enjoy Nature. Although true...I have lived in my van for almost 3 years, I have discovered that doing what is the right thing has causes me absolutely no problems. I camp on BLM land, I park where it is legal..I ask if there is a doubt. I have had no problems ANYWHERE!
I am a retired traveler...I have paid my dues and will do what I please..."this land is my land..this land is your land".

 

[John_Camping]

That's the same thing I think, some of these guys are always talking about stealth, which to me translates into hiding, which to other people translates into "what are they hiding".

ps. I don't think stealth is about hiding. It's about blending in and not drawing attention. An effective end result is hidden, but the path is very different. You can wear bright orange and hide, but if you're stealth you can be invisible walking down the street. The world bombards us with sensory information far beyond what we can process, most of it useless to us. The animal brain is wired at it's core to pick up things that change, are different, or unfamiliar. You don't need to hide to be stealth, just blend in.

 

[Brian_and_Jesse]

I've always assumed that the laws against living in your vehicle were a variation on the vagrancy laws.

I remember the phrase "no visible means of support" as being somehow related to whether one was, or was, not, a "vagrant".

I think the assumption was that someone with no visible means of support probably resorted to either begging or petty theft to get by.  The vagrancy law permitted the cops to deal with such a person WITHOUT catching him red handed begging or stealing.

I was doing a little research on this on Wikipedia and I came across an article on what may have been the first vagrancy law  - A British Vagrancy Act of 1824.


The most interesting thing about this law is the actual title it was introduced with:

"An Act for the punishment of idle and disorderly persons, rogues and vagabonds."

That pretty much says it all, don't it?  The whole Puritan "Idle hands are the devils playground", no layabouts or ne'erdowells allowed.

Regards
John

Charming!

Jesus Christ was homeless for years and He didn't carry a porta potty!

I read earlier on another thread where a church (a church, if you please) asked a van dweller to move along because he was parked outside of the church on a night when it wasn't even active. I'm guessing Jesus is still shaking his head over that one!

There's nothing in The Bible nor any other holy book that says there's anything wrong with sleeping out under the stars. True, we're told to 'Render unto Caesar,' and so we must, but it isn't remotely 'legal' from God's point of view.

Millions of people on this planet still live in tents - take Bedouins for example - and they've been doing so for millenia.

And TPTB have the nerve to call America the land of the free!

Shalom, and happy Father's Day!

Jesse.

 

[VanLifeCrisis]

ive encountered similar things with some churches. ive encountered far more that paid 78 dollars a night to put people up in motel rooms for a night or even two though.
to be fair, there were a lot less people in biblical times in one area.

 

[caseyc]

Law breaker over here too...check!

 

[SoulRaven]

Several years ago I worked with a number of churches to open their parking lots to vehicle dwellers. In several, the end result was actually cheaper than the amounts they were paying to put people up in motels.

For two of them, we actually built some portable shelters to house some of the homeless people.

At still another church we constructed a huge hoop style greenhouse on church property, which was heated by the sun during the day and a double barrel style waste oil furnace at night, and the homeless could pitch tents inside. The church's school kitchen provides all the waste oil needed to run the furnace.

It's amazing what good a little forward thinking can do.

 

[eDJ_]

A number of years ago I used to check these two books out of my Public Library.  Learning to better use my Van in my occupation and travels payed off for me. 


Rolling Homes; Handmade Houses on Wheels (1979)  Jane Lidz

http://www.amazon.com/Rolling-Homes-Handmade-Houses-Wheels/dp/089104129X


Roll Your Own: Complete Guide to Living in a Truck, Bus, Van, or Camper (1974)  Jodi Pallidini & Beverly Dubin

http://www.amazon.com/Roll-Your-Own-Complete-Living/dp/0020810504


I'm sure the information is dated now, but the "Roll Your Own" gave some insights as to which were the best states to register a vehicle in if you intended to travel and live in it.  There were many other insights offered
as well.  

I don't know if any such publication exist today with the quality (and timely) info this book contained in
1974.   I'd like to know of it if such does.  It would be nice to have something like a "Road Atlas", or "Van travelers Bible" for those who dwell/travel in retirement etc to know the laws of the land in each state. 
Even a list of websites and publications, such as Campground Atlas, that could be used to those ends.

I strongly agree with belonging to Gym's which are National franchises where one can go work out and use the
bath rooms and shower facilities.  Laundromats are still fairly common.  Some larger Service Stations still have
facilities for RV's to dump and flush their tanks for a fee. Public Libraries are good places in inclement weather
as they are warm or cool.  The will generally permit travels to tender their drivers license to use the computers
for an hour or two of use.  Some truck stops offer showers and laundry facilities to travelers for a fee.  But using pubic toilets can avert that impact to local environments. 

Whenever I was on the road, I always tried to be clean, decently dressed and respectable in appearance.
I've seen a lot of travelers feature emblems of Fraternal Organization, or Military affiliation by the VIN on the Drivers side of their windshield. Not a shure fired off the hook, but it may get one the benefit of the doubt.