How soon will electric or hybrid vans/RVs be common?

[JT646]

Yep, and coal-powered EVs WILL be paying their fair share of road taxes...some day...or at least, we can hope.

Remember, the EV is not really zero emission.

Ah but they can be:
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/07/solar-trailer-for-range-extension-from-tesla/Can't make your own "fuel" with an ICE. Moderator: Embrace the future...and let-go of your conspiracy theories.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I do not trade in consipracy theories. I deal in real, provable facts as they are now.

Even if your new EV was 100% recharged by 'green' energy from day one at your house and on the road, there is a huge 'front-end' burden on the environment. HUGE.

The mining and manufacture of steel, lead, aluminum, plastics, copper, lithium, other metals and toxins involved in the manufacture of ICE-Vs or EVs is not a zero-sum equation. It is extremely energy dependent and that energy is coming from coal and petroleum. There are a LOT of environmentally damaging processes involved in getting that shiny new EV to the dealership and your driveway.

Then there is the not green build-out of the green-energy supply chain, manufacture and production and transportation of all the products and infrastructure used in that build-out, and the maintenence, repair, and eventual replacement or disposal of all that stuff in 10 or 30 or 100 years.

And yes, traditional fuel-powered vehicles (including hybrids) have many of the same issues. But we already have most of that figured out and a lot of it is already in place.

For a wider perspective on all of this, I suggest you view this easy to watch video:

 

[tx2sturgis]

I'm not 'anti EV'...I own two of them. Both are small 2 wheel rechargeable, an e-bike and an e-scooter.

I might even one day be able to afford an electric motorcycle...wow! Now those things are fast! But limited in range, at least, for now. Low maintenance and low operating costs are a huge attraction for most EVs, whether 2, 3, or 4 wheels.

But out here in the sticks, and I mean very rural, long distances between towns, and few charging stations, an EV will almost always be a second or third vehicle for most people around here. Large cities, yeah, I can see it...soccer moms and office workers heading out in EVs 5 days a week...20-30 mile round trips every day...no problem. Makes perfect sense in that situation.

But out here in the boonies....our infrastructure is just 'not there yet'...maybe someday...it will be.

 

[user 423]

Can't make your own "fuel" with an ICE. Moderator: Embrace the future...and let-go of your conspiracy theories.

How is pointing out the negatives of EV's a belief in "conspiracy theories"?

 

[WVWildflower]

Zero Motorcycles have upwards of 223 miles of range. I ride manual bikes, so I have not been on one of these, but maybe you would like it.

https://www.hotcars.com/longest-range-electric-motorcycles-ranked/
As far as distances, a Tesla MS can go 405 miles. That would be just fine in the boonies. Any EV could handle the 20 or 30 miles you gave as an example. EVs are more evolved than that.

 

[Username]

Ah but they can be:
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/07/solar-trailer-for-range-extension-from-tesla/Can't make your own "fuel" with an ICE. Moderator: Embrace the future...and let-go of your conspiracy theories.

Well, in WWII the Europeans developed ingenious methods of adapting vehicles to run off burning wood (gas). You can also convert engines to run off ethanol, which is renewable if you pack a still. These are possible conversions to do today, especially if your vehicle has a carburetor and not fuel injected.

My concern with EV RVs is that batteries of today have significant storage falloff past the 10 year mark, while my 1985 ICE as the same power output as it did 35 years ago. Most EVs in general are packed so full of electronics, they're also impossible to service without specialty mechanics and computers. Whereas in theory most minor and even some major engine work on my RV can be done by an amateur following the manual.

What might be interesting is a conversion kit that adds an electric motor (plus also regenerative breaking) to an existing vehicle in a very simple way to supplement the ICE or take over completely if you're out of gas. And then the electric motor is just running off whatever batteries you have on your rig.

But considering how expensive newer RVs are (100k+), the issue is how long will the EV RV last and how easy is it to swap out degraded electronic parts without going to a pricey dealer or service station. If I had to replace my whole ICE, for example, it's a few thousand. Do the same thing on an EV and you're basically paying for the cost of the EV.

 

[user 423]

What might be interesting is a conversion kit that adds an electric motor (plus also regenerative breaking) to an existing vehicle in a very simple way to supplement the ICE or take over completely if you're out of gas. And then the electric motor is just running off whatever batteries you have on your rig.

The batteries in Teslas weigh over 1000 lbs.

How far do you think you'd get in a heavy RV with only a few hundred pounds of 'whatever batteries you have'?

If lead-acid batteries, they would be dead in no time.

 

[Username]

The batteries in Teslas weigh over 1000 lbs.

How far do you think you'd get in a heavy RV with only a few hundred pounds of 'whatever batteries you have'? If lead-acid batteries, they would be dead in no time.

I think you're deliberately misreading / misconstruing what I wrote.

 

[user 423]

^Nope, just pointing out how impractical that (likely expensive) conversion would be.

BTW: A DC motor large enough to power an RV would probably be pretty heavy and that would mean even quicker depletion of a battery bank.

 

[Username]

Nope, just pointing out how impractical that (likely expensive) conversion would be.

BTW: A DC motor large enough to power an RV would probably be pretty heavy and that would mean even quicker depletion of a battery bank.

If you have an ICE which is supplemented by an (optionally engaged) electric motor running off your house batteries, then there is nothing stopping you from adding as beefy a battery bank as you want since it's modular setup. Even if it only has a 50-100 mile range per charge, for example, this still can be highly useful especially depending on the solar and other circumstances (e.g. using it for power assist, short drives, as a backup, etc)

I'm not sure why you are strawmanning me as if I was suggesting trying to run an electric RV solely off a lead-acid battery, unless you had some particular axe to grind.

 

[tx2sturgis]

As far as distances, a Tesla MS can go 405 miles. That would be just fine in the boonies. Any EV could handle the 20 or 30 miles you gave as an example. EVs are more evolved than that.

Let me help you with this.

Even Tesla recommends not charging to 100% unless you need that range for an upcoming longer charger-to-charger trip, as in traveling across several states or across the country.

The way most people use EVs around town is to charge them to between 60% and 80% for local driving. And millions of Americans park their cars in driveways and parking lot of apartments and condos, not to mention offices and workplaces that have no on-site charger. So they will be making a lot of short 5 to 30 mile trips, back and forth to home, office, school, grocery store, recreation, etc, end to end, before they take the time to plug into an available charging station at the mall or other public charging station, once a week or maybe twice a week.

I can buy a nice $20,000 car today that can go 500 miles on one tank of gas, I can then spend 5 minutes getting gas, and then go another 500 miles, easy. No waiting, no range anxiety. When an EV can do this, and sells for 20 grand, call me.

Also for our purposes here, many of us who might consider an electric pickup, SUV, or van, would want to pull a trailer. Most larger and premium EVs can pull a trailer, but the range drops to 50% or less, especially if the trailer is larger and or heavy, or with a larger frontal area such as a camper or cargo trailer.

Many years ago (maybe 5?) on this forum we had a discussion thread about building out a camper trailer with a large on-board tesla style battery installed under the floor of the trailer, to help provide the EV combination (truck and camper for example) the original range it had without a trailer. Being able to charge the EV while in motion would be an excellent way to extend the range. Then we also discussed hooking up the EV and the 'camper battery' to the 30 and 50 amp RV hookups at the campground as one would do, and what (or if) the campgrounds might be able and willing to accommodate in this scenario.

So you see, we are not fossils here, many of us would be willing to operate on the 'bleeding edge' of technology as long as it provides us with what we need, at a reasonable price/value ratio.

Mainly: longer range with no restrictions, easy recharging nearly anywhere (no 2 to 4 hour waits at charging stations with a 25 foot camper hanging out in the access lane near the charger) no expensive battery replacement in 100,000 miles, hopefully a reduced negative impact on the environment, and importantly, it has to all be affordable and good value for the money spent.

Lots of electric vehicles including Tesla, Ford Lightning, Chevy Bolts, and Rivians have had numerous safety recalls (some EVs spontaneously catch fire!) so an owner who is nomadic might have difficulty finding and scheduling a repair, while trying to live in (or out of) that EV. At least Ford and Chevrolet do have a network of service facilities around the country.

Then there is the difficulty with repairs after a collision. EV repairs are very specialized and expensive, and parts are in short supply. Tesla and others have been involved in 'right to repair' lawsuits. This alone might be reason enough to avoid them for the time being. Maybe the future will look brighter for E-RVs, if and when we can get past some of these issues.

For now, and the next few years, EVs make sense in a limited set of scenarios (mostly local commuting and grocery-getting not to mention fans of Tesla, Rivian, etc) but not really suitable for most of the 'rank and file' van dwellers and RVers that this forum is dedicated to.

This might change in the future, but I would not advise a van or RV shopper today to wait for an all-electric powered 22 foot E-Camper van or 35 foot electric E-Motorhome in the $75,000 price range that can go 500 miles, and stop for 10 minutes to fully recharge almost anywhere, then return to the road and travel another 500 miles with no worries. Cuz those wont exist for awhile.

 

[bullfrog]

Along the same line of thought 18 volt tools an appliances have evolved and are now widely accepted by our community. Electric bikes are also improving and more are being used by the nomadic community. Hybrid vehicles that are “almost good enough” like the Prius still cost more than most can afford here but the possibility of climate control and possible fuel savings have drawn many to the used car buying sites. “Cheap” is still an important part of what is discussed on this forum.

 

[WVWildflower]

Let me help you with this.

Even Tesla recommends not charging to 100% unless you need that range for an upcoming longer charger-to-charger trip, as in traveling across several states or across the country.

The way most people use EVs around town is to charge them to between 60% and 80% for local driving. And millions of Americans park their cars in driveways and parking lot of apartments and condos, not to mention offices and workplaces that have no on-site charger. So they will be making a lot of short 5 to 30 mile trips, back and forth to home, office, school, grocery store, recreation, etc, end to end, before they take the time to plug into an available charging station at the mall or other public charging station, once a week or maybe twice a week.

I can buy a nice $20,000 car today that can go 500 miles on one tank of gas, I can then spend 5 minutes getting gas, and then go another 500 miles, easy. No waiting, no range anxiety. When an EV can do this, and sells for 20 grand, call me.

Also for our purposes here, many of us who might consider an electric pickup, SUV, or van, would want to pull a trailer. Most larger and premium EVs can pull a trailer, but the range drops to 50% or less, especially if the trailer is larger and or heavy, or with a larger frontal area such as a camper or cargo trailer.

Many years ago (maybe 5?) on this forum we had a discussion thread about building out a camper trailer with a large on-board tesla style battery installed under the floor of the trailer, to help provide the EV combination (truck and camper for example) the original range it had without a trailer. Being able to charge the EV while in motion would be an excellent way to extend the range. Then we also discussed hooking up the EV and the 'camper battery' to the 30 and 50 amp RV hookups at the campground as one would do, and what (or if) the campgrounds might be able and willing to accommodate in this scenario.

So you see, we are not fossils here, many of us would be willing to operate on the 'bleeding edge' of technology as long as it provides us with what we need, at a reasonable price/value ratio.

Mainly: longer range with no restrictions, easy recharging nearly anywhere (no 2 to 4 hour waits at charging stations with a 25 foot camper hanging out in the access lane near the charger) no expensive battery replacement in 100,000 miles, hopefully a reduced negative impact on the environment, and importantly, it has to all be affordable and good value for the money spent.

Lots of electric vehicles including Tesla, Ford Lightning, Chevy Bolts, and Rivians have had numerous safety recalls (some EVs spontaneously catch fire!) so an owner who is nomadic might have difficulty finding and scheduling a repair, while trying to live in (or out of) that EV. At least Ford and Chevrolet do have a network of service facilities around the country.

Then there is the difficulty with repairs after a collision. EV repairs are very specialized and expensive, and parts are in short supply. Tesla and others have been involved in 'right to repair' lawsuits. This alone might be reason enough to avoid them for the time being. Maybe the future will look brighter for E-RVs, if and when we can get past some of these issues.

For now, and the next few years, EVs make sense in a limited set of scenarios (mostly local commuting and grocery-getting not to mention fans of Tesla, Rivian, etc) but not really suitable for most of the 'rank and file' van dwellers and RVers that this forum is dedicated to.

This might change in the future, but I would not advise a van or RV shopper today to wait for an all-electric powered 22 foot E-Camper van or 35 foot electric E-Motorhome in the $75,000 price range that can go 500 miles, and stop for 10 minutes to fully recharge almost anywhere, then return to the road and travel another 500 miles with no worries. Cuz those wont exist for awhile.

I have done my best to correct the misinformation posted about Teslas here.

There are not 2 to 4 hour waits. Batteries are meant to go 300k-500k for NCA technology and double that for LFP (which don't catch fire), not the 100k that you repeatedly postulate. I actually own one of these and used to consult for Tesla. This is my fourth Tesla. The information presented is not accurate and I have tried my best to clarify it.

If anyone has Tesla questions, you can always PM me.

 

[tx2sturgis]

And we appreciate your input. But, this thread is about electric (and hybrid) RVs and vans in general and not about Teslas in particular. I think you are getting confused and if so, that might be partially my fault.

Let me try again.

Yes, a typical new EV (any make) has an 8 year/100,000 mile battery warranty, but what will happen in the real world as the vehicle ages, and sees use in extremely hot and cold temps...and maybe even pulls a trailer or carries heavy camper loads, (water, food supplies etc) up steep mountain two tracks into the boonies (you also mentioned boondocking). At the ripe old vehicle age of 10 or 15 years, you might have to fork over $15,000 or $20,000 for a new high capacity battery in an E-RV...who knows what the cost will be in 15 years, or if they will even still be available.

And there might be a 2 hour or more wait in an E-RV with an electrified camper...1 hour or so for the EV and another hour or so for the camper's EV battery...which is what I was talking about when I mentioned it...unless you want to (and are able to) occupy two charger slots. at the same time. The high capacity batteries needed for such a large vehicle will have a longer charge time (assuming todays typical charging stations) than simply topping up a nice streamlined and very efficient Tesla for another 100-200 miles.

The problems are mainly in scalability...more weight equals a lot more power to move it.

Lets take a couple of examples in the e-van segment..which might be a starting point for a vandweller who wants to go all electric...today or in the next year or two.

The Rivian based Amazon Electric van is rated at about 150 miles range. That means you will be needing a one hour charge about every 2 hours of driving. More or less.

The Ford E-Transit is rated at 126 miles range. A DC fast charger will bring it up 45 miles of added range in 30 minutes, but a standard home or garage charger running on 240v will take 10 hours to fully charge the van...and you will still get less than 2 hours of driving time with that one.

Ok, another one?

The Bollinger Deliver-E...fun name. I cant find range for that one, but the Bollinger B1 is rated at around 200 miles range.

These E-vans are gonna be a good thing for these package and delivery companies because the delivery business is all about short trips around a local or regional distribution warehouse or other place of business...but a vandweller who spends over $100 grand on the base vehicle then also spends $50,000 or more on the conversion, and can only travel about 100 miles before they need a minimum one hour charge (assuming no waiting) is likely going to be very unhappy with the entire experience unless the only camping and boondocking they actually do is at the cracker barrel or walmart parking lot in the next town every other weekend.

I'm sure your Tesla is working well for you. But many of our members just need a bit more 'vehicle' especially if full-timing.

 

[bullfrog]

I’m a bit curious about Tesla charging times using a standard 120 volt 15 amp circuit. Since I live in a remote location which is over 110 miles from Green River Utah which is on a stretch of Interstate 70 which is between Grand Junction Colorado, over 100 miles to the east and Richfield Utah which is 100 miles to the west. From here in Bullfrog Utah the nearest grid power is 66 miles In Hanksville Utah. We continue to have visitors show up needing to charge their Tesla vehicles not realizing only 120 volt 15 amp charging will be available to them. Many have never used this charging option. Realistically how long will it take them to recharge their vehicle from almost a dead battery? It seems most need several days charging to make it to a higher amperage charging station.

 

[peteg59]

Like most Americans, I welcome EV powered vehicles breaking onto the scene.
However, the gov't. has no business mandating their exclusive use among the driving populace as it is rabidly trying to do today.

IF it becomes a viable means of transportation for the "masses", users will make the transition when they are comfortable in doing so.

Many arguments today can be made for and against EV's.
For those with any automotive knowledge, all legit issues with EV's must be thoroughly considered on a case-by-case basis regarding one's transition to the "new" technology.

Others that blindly leap into a new EV because the Gov't. told them to either have extremely deep pockets for myriad of reasons, or are likely trying to do the right thing for themselves and the planet.

Until battery technology advances I will stick with ICE power, probably the rest of my days above ground and breathing. Yeah, I'm old...

 

[WVWildflower]

I’m a bit curious about Tesla charging times using a standard 120 volt 15 amp circuit. Since I live in a remote location which is over 110 miles from Green River Utah which is on a stretch of Interstate 70 which is between Grand Junction Colorado, over 100 miles to the east and Richfield Utah which is 100 miles to the west. From here in Bullfrog Utah the nearest grid power is 66 miles In Hanksville Utah. We continue to have visitors show up needing to charge their Tesla vehicles not realizing only 120 volt 15 amp charging will be available to them. Many have never used this charging option. Realistically how long will it take them to recharge their vehicle from almost a dead battery? It seems most need several days charging to make it to a higher amperage charging station.

Forever. They would get 2 to 3 miles every hour. When I had my AC running in camping mode, I was getting between 0 and 1 mph at 120v. See attached.

From Tesla's website:
" A 120 volt outlet will supply 2 to 3 miles of range per hour charged. If you charge overnight and drive less than 30 to 40 miles per day, this option should meet your typical charging needs.

You can also purchase an adapter bundle and charge with other outlet types, including a 240 volt outlet. Commonly used in homes to power larger appliances, a 240 volt outlet will supply up to 30 miles of range per hour charged."

 

[bullfrog]

Yep, we try to get them charged but usually they extend their stay several days. The only other option is a $800 or more roll back ride. Seems in areas without grid power some alternative power needs to be developed that will insure electric vehicles will be viable. Seems it would make sense to standardize batteries so they could have some standardized exchange system so charging could be done at the most efficient time with little or no waiting.

 

[mpruet]

I suspect that we’ll continue to get incremental improvements in efficiency, much like tungsten to led, 12volt DC compressor fridges, battery improvements, solar improvements, etc. I suspect that instead of EV by itself, that the solution will be lighter but stronger construction methods.

 

[maki2]

I do not have a crystal ball handy. Like anything in the automotive sector it all depends on funding for product development at the vehicle companies. With all the current delays in manufacturing and the loss of incoming revenue from that situation and the Ukraine situation as well all previous and current predictions on such schedules are likely to be invalid assumptions.