We lost a lot of ground around Flagstaff this year

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Cousin_Eddie said:
 . . .
Sharing camping info is not the problem . . .
Click to expand...

The experience of many on here belies that statement.  I have seen some of my favorite camping spots trashed after publication on sites like this.  I don't publish anything anymore, except privately to a few chosen friends.

Added restrictions have been coming for a while and our governments stupid response to COVID has accelerated the issue.  Other areas, not just Flagstaff are dealing with rationing, restricted camping, and outright closures:
https://www.inyoregister.com/content/blm-proposes-camping-limits-alabama-hills
https://coloradosun.com/2021/05/21/...gL0Vl78sEMEl4hNbbjtBj2ELrf8VsbVWaE9Y7DiBH3Fug
https://sierrawave.net/update-on-dispersed-camping-summit-plans-in-mono-county/

I expect to see more of this, quickly if this summer is anything like 2020.  Eventually there will be restrictions/permits/rationing for all public lands.  I just didn't think it would happen this fast.
 
I just left a dispersed area after my two weeks were up. I have a Senior America The Beautiful Pass and used it for admission to a very well known park. Admission includes trash disposal, potable water, showers and laundry. At the time, the showers and laundry were closed due to covid but I think they're open sometime this week. I'm probably going to go back only to an area I haven't yet seen. Works for me. Who the hell owns these places? WE DO


As George Carlin said "Well, actually, we stole it from the Mexicans and the Indians but. Hey, it was nice when we stole it."
 
Some of you are missing my point altogether.

IT IS THE NUMBERS NOT THE TRASH.

I am not yelling I just want to emphasize it doesn't matter how clean people are the shear numbers do the damage. Do I need to repeat that?

IT'S THE SHEAR NUMBERS THAT DO THE DAMAGE.

Look at it this way, If one person pisses in a pond it's not a problem but when ten of thousands all piss into the same pond it is a problem.

To many people IS the problem.

Just like with most of our environmental issues that we face today. We have learned how to have minimal impact but with billions of people nothing is minimal impact. Until we come to grips with this we will NEVER be able to live in harmony with nature. NEVER. This is what turned me off to most of the mainstream environmental groups, they tap dance around this because it's an unpopular topic and they can't raise money being unpopular.

Boy you all got 4 cents worth of rant out of that one. LOL carry on.

Highdesertranger
 
I agree, which no one really cares, but I see it as numbers too. I was thinking about finding camps where you can go swimming or at least get wet, but when the areas full, how many people are pee'ing in the river, or pool for that matter. I think I'll just have a spray-bottle, LOL!
 
This too shall pass. That's why earlier on in the thread I asked if anyone remembered bell bottoms. Remember the Harley craze? So do I. It's a memory. I have an old Harley that I haven't ridden in about 3 years. It's worth less then this 19 year old van because you can buy newer low mileage Harley's for peanuts compared to what they used to cost.

Remember the twist?
 
^^^

Exactly why I am seeking places like the Owyhee drainage.

The enjoyment of nature is far more important to me than having a nearby grocery store and 24/7 full cell signal.

When I was looking for boats and planning... the last thing I wanted was to be cruising around marinas and popular ports.

When I was 19 and longlining in Alaska we spent most of our time a few hours from Attu. The equivalent is what I hope to find doing van travel.
 
I think the numbers AND the irresponsible are both problems, one probably exceeding the other in any given place at any given point in time.

NPS will likely start limiting entry to certain areas, as they already do in the BWCAW and are doing this year at Glacier.

To keep numbers down, and to know who’s out there.
 
desert_sailing said:
^^^

Exactly why I am seeking places like the Owyhee drainage.
Click to expand...
I would go into much more isolated places if I weren't alone.  Some women will do it and I admire them because they don't have the fears I do, and men, well not all, but many are adventurers like that, just born to be ;)

I live in a city, small, but still too many people for my tastes. Funny how I've learned more about nomads, and they do have groups some travel in.  To be honest, I wouldn't like it anymore than I like living in this building of people.  Don't misunderstand, I love meeting people, but I need my space, where I have my own rules for that space.  But when I step out and someone's dog has been allowed to crap on my doorstep (just for one example of rules not enforced where I live) I wish I didn't have to put up with it since I always end up stepping in it.

All good things come to an end, I don't remember who said that, it wasn't me.  People have had the right answer right on through this thread, and I agree,  and I'll add that the only thing wrong with the Earth is human-beings.  Garth Brook's wrote "I could have missed the pain, but I'd a had to miss the dance".  That's me, I'm not liking how it's all ending up, but what amazingly wonderful memories I have :heart:  And I'm going to make a few more before it's all over.
'
 
I've had some interesting conversations with a variety of rangers this week. We have had them in camp more than usual due to a abandoned car that has been here for months.

The first visit the ranger spoke with one of the people in camp that has a nicer class B with only a mat and chairs. They were talking about the closures and how they travel. The ranger said that it was not people like them that was the issue because he viewed them as vacationers. The issue was the people that come to the area come to the area and stay for three months and then move on to Lake Havasu City or Quartzsite for the winter. Those people are still working while out here, in other words living on the forest land and not using it for recreation.

The interesting part is even though we are in the same site, he assumed that my friend was not with us. my trailer looks older and I have things unpacked to be able to do solar. The person I am helping has a brand new 5th wheel but her site looks cluttered because she had to unload the storage bays to allow us to get to the areas we needed to installing her solar. (only 1500 watts with 600 Ah of lithium that saw 1203 watts coming down when we turned on the system at 3 PM)

So the appearance of your camp site has a big impact on how you are seen.

Yesterday a ranger implied that the closures were due to dwellers that were going deeper in, staying too long, trashing the place and chopping down trees.

Today was another friendly chat as they again checked on the abandoned car that obviously had someone living in it at one time. He asked if we had been visited by whoever it is that accounts for who is in the forest and for how long. We told him that we had been visited by a number of rangers due to the car but that no one mentioned that to us. We told him that we assumed that it was a guy on a dirt bike that stopped and took pictures of all the rigs in camp. He said that unless the motorcyclist had a ranger uniform on, it wasn't them. Also that while the ranger may have not stopped and talked to us, that they use a app to identify rigs so that they would know if someone was here in Walnut canyon and then went to another area without leaving the forest first.

In the past even those that did move every two weeks would go from one area to another all in the same forest. Last year a couple we knew told us of how they were visited by a ranger in Williams letting them know of the 2 week rule when he recognized their rig. He looked up the plate and asked if they hadn't recently been in the same area. They said a while back but since then they had been to Flagstaff and even stayed in a RV park. He said that's great. Can I see the receipt for the RV park? He wanted proof that they had been out of his forest.

Please be careful and plan accordingly as things are different than we have been use to. People seen as dwellers are being targeted.
 
Thanks for the follow up Jim.

You can tell that they are starting to crack down. This is only going to become more common.

Highdesertranger
 
This is sad, because it’s not those who are conscientious and mindful of how what they do impacts everything and everyone that are causing these changes.

I was at Chaco Canyon some years back https://www.nps.gov/chcu/index.htm and commented to a Ranger about how heavily patrolled the area is.

He told me that wasn’t the case when the area initially opened up, when much more was available to explore than today.

They had to cut back, close areas and increase patrols because of abuse of the land by people who would not follow the rules.

People ruin things every time.
 
Thanks Jim,

I'm glad to hear that they are checking things, not just what you mentioned but also with Summer coming on, we all suffered and worried for not just ourselves, but family and friends effected by the forest fires, some reportedly started my human-carelessness. Many up this way, are started by lightning, I grew up where every year we had lightning storms in Oregon.
 
A ranger comes up and asks if another ranger had been by previously. They don't coordinate? Or maybe the ranger was checking up on the other ranger, who was supposed to do the previous check, and did not do it, but claimed they had done the check. Weird.
 
If you are worried about getting tickets from rangers for being somewhere too long.and having to prove you did not deserve it then cover your ass by keeping a time and location dated travel.
 
It is a busy weekend, lots of overtime and extra rangers are out on the roads. Not worth worrying about what they are doing. Just behave yourself and don't give them grief or waste their time in long conversations. Answer their question briefly and then let them get on with their assignments. That way they will have time for breaks and lunch and that will make them more pleasant to deal with and less inclined to act like a hungry Grizzly Bear.

Bringing up other campers bad behaviorrs in conversation is a bad idea. Why remind them of those unpleasant situations? Don't you realize it adds extra stress and negativity to their brain and body? Do not bring the subject of past misbehaviors by other campers in conversations just for your own benefit of having someone or something to talk about. Be polite, be courteous, answer questions but don't get off track into what other people do versus what you do or don't do.. They share that stuff in staff meetings, they have already heard all about it.
 
If you don’t want a ticket, don’t wear out your welcome and especially don’t stay in one spot until they kick you out.

If a ranger drives by, wave. Never hide as it makes them wonder what's going on.

If they pull into camp, go out and greet them. Don’t make them come beat on your door when it’s obvious that you are there.

Most rangers are pretty friendly unless they are there thinking something is wrong.

Should they pull in saying that they just stopped by to make sure that you know that the area is two weeks only or that there is a fire restriction going on, say thank you for letting us know. They will stay or go of their own accord.

On the other hand you will notice that they can be fairly chatty because it gives them a chance to casually check out the site. Find out where you are from and such.

The ones that have stopped by to check on the car have asked if anyone has been by it, have we seen anyone cutting trees down. They have explained the changes and why they are happening. They also want to make sure that you have any questions that you may have answered.

The rangers doing their job is not the problem. Entitled people abusing the lands are.
 
"The rangers doing their job is not the problem. Entitled people abusing the lands are."

Amen to that.

Highdesertranger
 
Sounds like they are all over it though.

Most cases forest staff is too busy to talk to each and every camper unless there is a fee to collect or a ticket to write. Signs take care of the education part, unless there is a new hazard to tell people about like fire season or angry bears, lions, etc.  They must have extra manpower if they are free to patrol without leaving a paper trail.

I guess I prefer to receive less attention, and would probably find a different spot that FS was less interested in "protecting."  

There are always alternatives, including writing the ranger's name on a comment form. If you have not been provided with a comment form, be sure to ask for one. All campers have the right to comment and are encouraged to do so.
-crofter

Link to online comment form for BLM.

https://www.doi.gov/contact-us
 
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