We lost a lot of ground around Flagstaff this year

[jimindenver]

As our community grows out of popularity, financial need and the pandemic, our actions are causing the amount of places we can use to be reduced. i know not all of what has happened has been done by those on this board, on the road or even full timing. Then again, some of it is.
 
We are doing a great job of selling this lifestyle without bringing up the down sides or explaining how to act, Most new people are only hearing that you are free to do whatever and it is free out here, so get away with what you can. The problem is its not being gotten away with. You may think that you got away with it but the response is lets make sure they don't get away with it again. The result is what we are seeing now.

So many campfires were left hot by both locals and travelers that they were worried that we were going to burn Flagstaff down. The result was a ban on camping anywhere near town including A 1 mountain road where Bob use to hold the summer RTR.

Last year so many people, (and yes by that I mean dwellers too) stayed in one spot for as long as they could get away with it. Some will not move until a ranger kicks them out. We need people to understand that the rangers know that they are there. They know your rig and its plate. They know how long you have been there. They know if you were in another spot before. Should they have to kick you out of the spot, they likely will kick you out of the whole forest. The fines got much larger last year.

Another issue last year was the trash. Some entitled people take the concept of someone else will clean up after me to a art form. I'm not talking just their site but the road into it and beyond. It's ridiculous considering how many ways there are to get rid of trash here. (and no, filling up the bins at a gas station without spending a cent isn't the answer)

The last thing that I saw is that there were so many people that areas were full. So instead of finding a spot somewhere else they turned spurs that could handle one or two rigs into neighborhoods. Some simply decided to drive across virgin fields over vegetation because that tree just looked so inviting.

The result of the abuse is many roads have been closed. Many areas are now posted no vehicles. Some of those areas still open are posted no camping, no campfires. The entitled idiots that thought that they were getting away with it didn't and we lost a lot of places to camp when our numbers are growing.

We need to be better stewards of the public lands. We need to teach people to be too. Yes you can save money by not having to pay rent but we do it by the grace of those that control the land. Add in that no one said living this way was cheap. Either get permission to get water and toss trash or pay for it. It's unacceptable to put the burden of your existence on someone else just to save a little because what you do affects all of us.

 

[JasonMcD]

As bad as i hate to see it. I don't think human nature is ever going to change. We can send warnings up all day, but i don't think it will do any good. I hate the idea of babysitting these kinds of people, and enabling them even further..but perhaps CRVL, HOWA and other communities that inhabit these places would be well served to create a volunteer fire/trash brigade that takes it upon itself to ensure that these fires, and piles of trash are taken care of before rangers get a chance to see it. Communicate to rangers and blm enforcement that we're aware of it, and we plan on doing something about it. I realize it takes time and resources away from things we'd rather be doing, but its a better option than losing these resources entirely. Just a thought.

 

[bullfrog]

One of the reasons I recommend park passes is because you have access to trash, water, dump station and several services. Sleeping on BLM land and moving often as in going to day use areas during the day solves a lot of the problems. It is better to minimise to a point you don't have to "set up" camp but if you do 14 days is more than reasonable to have a place to sleep for free. Cheap RV living is easier when it is simple.

 

[Ravella and X]

This seems like a good time and place to drop this Escapees RVers boondocking policy...

https://www.escapees.com/rvers-boon... but are generally,pets, and your dust trails.

I personally don't fudge the slightest bit on this policy. I'd sure like suggestions of how to gently guide friends and camp mates without coming off as sanctimonious and judgy. I do not want to throw up walls, and I do want to help others get to the point of also strictly following these ways. I never know what to say when someone tells me they overstay or any of the other issues raised contrary to this policy. I just feel uncomfortable and awkward. :/

 

[crofter]

I am sorry to hear that areas in northern AZ are closed now, but someday they could reopen and at least they did not burn down. Remember Yarnell and other towns that have burned. All should consider the safety and environmental impacts of discarding trash and of burning a campfire.

My fave area to camp host in Oregon on Mount Hood was destroyed by fire last season including plants and animals, closed many access roads and closed a highway, campgrounds, and day areas closed. The threat of fire is real. On the 4th of July weekend, I have put out many campfires some hot enough to melt metal. Camp hosts in remote areas do not have a hose. Water is hand pumped and hauled to put out all those smouldering fire rings. Consider NOT having a campfire.

Trash is a big deal threatening the lives of wild animals. In the stomachs of birds and wild animals can be found many items of trash that cause the animal to starve to death. Even waste such as spilled food needs to be cleaned up as in can hurt the animals who consume it, or create a dependance on human camp areas for food. And yes trash is ugly also.

You can compact trash to fit into a very small space by stepping on it after filling the bag.  Spend a half hour per day picking up trash as a meditation. Focus on getting the shiny bits that birds are attracted to. Check fire rings that you pass by for heat or trash. Teach clean camping skills to others.
-crofter

Link to closure map, Hood.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mthood/fire/?cid=fseprd835619

 

[WanderingRose]

I’ve been concerned for some time that the steady increase in vehicle dwellers was going to negatively impact the lifestyle for everyone, for many reasons.

It’s good to remind everyone to be a responsible adult out there, but the fact is not everyone is a responsible adult nor cares one whit about how their actions affect others.

I don’t know that there is a good way to remind irresponsible others that there’s more than just them out there, as people like that generally don’t take well to criticism.

In my experience.

That said, I would sure like to hear others thoughts on how to address this.

 

[crofter]

Link to closure map, Hood.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mthood/fire/?cid=fseprd835619

Story, link to fs site.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/7ba1715929bb4cc591b3bbade3e30895

Impacts closure map, interactive

https://landslides.usgs.gov/hazards/postfire_debrisflow/detail.php?objectid=334

 

[RVTravel]

Less than 1% put out campfires correctly. They should all be banned permanently in all national forests.

 

[crofter]

....I don’t know that there is a good way to remind irresponsible others that there’s more than just them out there, as people like that generally don’t take well to criticism...

Teaching in a way that shows your love for wild places plants & animals rather than as criticism. Can catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

Even trash can be fun. Earlier I posted about picking up trash as a meditation. Picking up trash could also be a group bonding time or even a contest.

Getting people to not run over all the plants with their vehicles is more difficult, they will probably want to run over you also if you try to approach. (Why the FS uses road closures instead of travel tickets).

Fear of catastrophic fires is a real threat and most dwellers do not have the water reserves to douse everyone's campfire. An alternative is covering with dirt to smother the fire, beating it out with wet burlap, or digging a fire break. All are a lot of work, so enlist the help of others. Then stick around fir a while to make sure the fire dies not start up again.
-crofter

 

[G0ldengirl68]

I honestly wondered about this very post of Jim's showing up, or one like it . I'm with Jason on this one, I don't think people are going to change, you either thing about others or you don't. There are always going to be those that are not willing to follow the rules, even the simplist ones that would keep things open for all. I am so sad, but yet I knew that thinking these things won't happen as long as humans exist, is just not believable.

 

[G0ldengirl68]

One of the reasons I recommend park passes is because you have access to trash, water, dump station..

I called today about a pass for State Parks bullfrog, because I just feel better all'round staying where there are rules, and might be a better chance of them being enforced.  I don't know if I could afford full-timing but I'll be checking out prices on some campgrounds that I might want to go to.  I don't know what else to say except that there's a lot of good people out there that don't deserve to get shut out because of the few bad apples.   :s

 

[crofter]

...follow the rules, even the simplist ones that would keep things open for all...

Something positive you can do: make your next meditation walking around picking up trash in your area. Others will see you doing this and be thankful for your action, may follow your example.

Forgot to mention earlier:  good idea to wear disposable gloves.
-crofter

 

[lab_nomad]

I both love and dislike this idea. I love it b/c it's helping and as you said, you may set a good example. I dislike it b/c I think it might perpetuate the idea that others will take care of things, so do want you want and don't worry about it. 

The problem is due to differences in personality. You'll never make someone who is disagreeable and low in conscientiousness do the right thing just because (I'm referring to the Big Five model of personality).  And it doesn't work to confront people when you see them doing something (we should know that by the whole masking thing). There is going to have to be consequences and more enforcing of the rules. Honor system doesn't work unless we start a eugenics program. ;-)

 

[G0ldengirl68]

"There is going to have to be consequences and more enforcing of the rules. Honor system doesn't work unless we start a eugenics program. ;-)"

Well said, your whole post. That's what it is bound to be no matter how some have been responsible campers ;( Another type of lock-down for all.

 

[G0ldengirl68]

walking around picking up trash in your area.

I would do this, and yes, wear the gloves, but I wouldn't expect anyone, that is not concerned the least in how their poor choices might effect others ;( , would learn anything from me doing what they don't think they need to do.  I doubt the thought crosses their mind even when doing wrong.

 

[highdesertranger]

Stop advertising/promoting places to go. Let people find out on there own. For the past ten years everybody and their brother has been saying go to Flagstaff in the summer. Stop it, Please stop it. And these websites that do this promoting stop using them and stop passing the links to them along.


What did you all think was going to happen? Are you all surprised by this?

Highdesertranger

 

[wayne49]

Unless you need a fire to survive, just don't start fires.

There's some sort of fire burning now in the Nevada National Security Site, started three days ago, it looks to be in Area 20, the area where they did the underground testing until 1992, aka Paiute(or Pahute) Mesa. Area 20's underground water is heavily irradiated.

We are wondering what material is burning and what's in the heavy smoke drifting east currently.

I'm across US-95 about 42 miles south of Area 20. Image was taken yesterday at sunset.

 

[WanderingRose]

Stop advertising/promoting places to go. Let people find out on there own. For the past ten years everybody and their brother has been saying go to Flagstaff in the summer. Stop it, Please stop it. And these websites that do this promoting stop using them and stop passing the links to them along.

Highdesertranger

I agree with this completely.

People start threads on many forums asking the best places to go in whatever area, and I am always stunned when people reply with exact locations.

 

[crofter]

I would do this, and yes, wear the gloves, but I wouldn't expect anyone, that is not concerned the least in how their poor choices might effect others ;( , would learn anything from me...

Who knows, maybe they will copy you and pick up trash  just to be cool, like you.
-crofter

And yes HDR we will stop telling anyone that there are good spots to camp.

However I think this group and any other RV group should defend the right to use public land for boondocking or organized campsite type camping & dwelling (longer stays). If you looked at the fire response plan I posted above, citing safety concerns FS  plans to wait for all the trees to fall down before allowing public entry (called hazard trees) and estimate 100 years before the area has trees again. If you zoom out on the impacts map, there are a lot of areas in the west that burned last year= so expect less camping spots will be available.

Not politics, but we should be asking for campground repairs to be a priority and commenting on the FS and BLM plans that affect our access.
-crofter

 

[G0ldengirl68]

Stop advertising/promoting places to go. 
Highdesertranger

You are right, it's like finding a good swimming hole.  How are you going to stop people from sharing the good news though.  There's so darn little of it.  I just think groups are good and to let people/towns know who we are and build a good reputation that benefits those towns.  It's common sense that if they shut down the areas, they won't make as much money off boon-dockers or campground campers.  We have to weed out people, it's sad to say, but I think that's just being realistic.  

So in the areas that are still open to us, can't we get tough on those that aren't following common sense camping rules?  If they don't listen, they can't stay in the group.  We might have to have a "neighborhood" watch, and I know I don't like to be rat-fink, but dangit, if someone doesn't know enough about putting out a fire, than I'll show them how, but if they don't want to listen happy trails.  Build a good reputation for "your group" have a name for it so word gets out, and when you are moving in close to a little town, introduce your selves or have a spokes person go in and let them know what we are about.  

I don't think the whole thing will last very long if we don't literally take a chance and change our ways.  Rules are good, and nothing that is unreasonable, vote on it, have a meeting, talk about it.  Have one of your big gatherings, put it on Zoom for those that can't be there physically!  We could do this.  Elect some fearless leaders, com'on!!  I think we could be respected, and have little towns glad to know us and we're gonna spend our dough in their town. And one more thought, help people out with temp. work in their town, carry someone's groceries. We could have hats with the name of the group, or t-shirts. Anyone seeing dollar signs for the group!! LOL!!