We lost a lot of ground around Flagstaff this year

[MotorVation]

Bell-bottoms are back, since a few, maybe more months ago.  The real floppy ones too.  I'm not into them this time around

NO! Make it stop!

 

[rvwandering]

Please stay on topic folks.

 

[jimindenver]

I think it's hilarious when people who are making money on YouTube and the spillage from it complain when people actually do what they're recommending. LOL!!!! I can't get enough!!

I stopped shooting years ago choosing to actually do solar instead of just talking about it. The last video I did was a class for HOWA on how to read a NFS MVUM map so people could know where to camp. In that class I also talked about following the rules, not over staying your welcome and not being a burden.

Are locals responsible for some of the things that have happened? Yes but that doesn't mean that they were not dwellers. Not only was the worse offender last year a local, so were many of the van/car dwellers I met. On the other hand, I have known plenty of forum dwellers happy to flaunt the rules.

Being in a car or van is not a requirement of being a dweller. I am and live in a RV as do many that frequent this forum. It is called cheap RV living after all. (i haven't lived in a car or camped in a van since the 80s)

The first step is education. Those that sell the lifestyle are responsible for also making it understood that there are downsides as well as rules and responsibilities involved. This post is a effort to show that the rules are more than just a annoyance and the effects of not following them.

 

[crofter]

Please stay on topic folks.

Yes. I think this is the most derailed thread in recent memory.

Important to remember that the same people who hand out the dispersed camping flyer are the ones putting up the no camping signs.

Have you ever seen a no camping sign when you were lost and looking for a spot? No. You can only find the no camping signs the next day.
-crofter

 

[WanderingRose]

Are locals responsible for some of the things that have happened? Yes but that doesn't mean that they were not dwellers. Not only was the worse offender last year a local, so were many of the van/car dwellers I met. On the other hand, I have known plenty of forum dwellers happy to flaunt the rules.

Some of the movement toward non-traditional housing, be those tents or vehicles of various sorts, come from people who can’t or won’t maintain traditional housing for whatever reason.

These same attitudes and behaviors go with these people into vehicle dwelling, and the general disregard for rules, expectations and the rights/needs of others.

Looking at the litter and whatever discarded by some gets old fast, as does constantly cleaning up after people who can’t be bothered to clean up after themselves.

I, personally, am more into established NF campgrounds as opposed to many miles down a dirt road, so there are Rangers, camp hosts, etc., who maintain these areas.

But when adequate staff cannot be maintained, as last year during the height of the pandemic, loops or entire campgrounds are closed.

How to deal with this, short of constantly cleaning up after others, is a real question.

 

[PeterPiper]

There is little (if anything) you can do other than suffer the consequences of their irresponsible actions...or take it upon yourself to quietly clean up the messes they leave behind.

Tens of millions annually have to suffer tight airport security yet only a handful have ever done anything to cause all of that inconvenience.

It's the price of living in a "civilized and free" society.
You will not find litter a problem in Pyongyang North Korea...but you won't find freedom either.

 

[G0ldengirl68]

NO! Make it stop!

You gotta admit, well, you don't have to, they are better than these

 

[G0ldengirl68]

It's the price of living in a "civilized and free" society.
You will not find litter a problem in Pyongyang North Korea...but you won't find freedom either.

Something to think about for sure, because like with my suggestions/thoughts earlier in the thread, whenever you give people the power to rule over a group, I guess I don't have to say more. I think you hit the nail on the head :s

 

[G0ldengirl68]

Please stay on topic folks.

I didn't see this and it was in my line of sight, apologies rv :s

 

[MotorVation]

I stopped shooting years ago choosing to actually do solar instead of just talking about it. The last video I did was a class for HOWA on how to read a NFS MVUM map so people could know where to camp. In that class I also talked about following the rules, not over staying your welcome and not being a burden.

Are locals responsible for some of the things that have happened? Yes but that doesn't mean that they were not dwellers. Not only was the worse offender last year a local, so were many of the van/car dwellers I met. On the other hand, I have known plenty of forum dwellers happy to flaunt the rules.

Being in a car or van is not a requirement of being a dweller. I am and live in a RV as do many that frequent this forum. It is called cheap RV living after all. (i haven't lived in a car or camped in a van since the 80s)

The first step is education. Those that sell the lifestyle are responsible for also making it understood that there are downsides as well as rules and responsibilities involved. This post is a effort to show that the rules are more than just a annoyance and the effects of not following them.

I was referring to Bob's YouTube channel which in turn gave you enough recognition to start your solar business. Not a damn thing wrong with that. In fact, I'm currently making use of my solar to be able to travel around the country and see the things I've been seeing.

Bob goes into great depth about taking care of the land and I believe most people are following that advice. His channel also promotes living on the road and even has videos on how to snowbird. Well, that's what I'm also doing. When I first got here the other day, the site I was planning on camping in is now posted with no camping signs so I had to go to plan b which is where I am now. The other site is right outside a neighborhood and it probably did get trashed. I don't have a crystal ball but I can imagine the locals going there and shitting the place up with shell casings and broken glass, maybe even a homeless camp with lots of trash. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen that.

It just pissed me off that someone with high visibility who is indeed promoting boondocking by designing mobile solar systems goes off on the fact that people are actually boondocking now. The people following the weather are naturally going to go up and there's only so much up to go to. This isn't just dwellers. There are high dollar rigs out here now that don't have to suffer the suckability of the campgrounds with hookups and can camp in nature.

Bottom line, I don't blame dwellers for everything that goes wrong in dispersed camping areas. Not even close. It was the words "we" and "us" that set me off. I am not part of any "we" or "us" that Flagstaff is worried about burning their city down. And another thing not necessarily directed at you. There is a big fat 'ninby' going on in the RV world. The 'ninbys' promote and camp on pristine land here out west, but they don't want anyone else doing it when it inconveniences them.

Yes, trash is a problem. I don't know what the solution is

 

[bullfrog]

It is an increased numbers problem in my opinion. A huge number of people with a house got tired of being in the house during covid and chose to go recreate outdoors. Record numbers of sales of vans, RVs,4x4s, UTVs, ATVs motorcycles and boats. Many more will soon join those ranks as renters are now having to face back payments of rent and higher rents they cannot afford not mention remote workers and the high cost of buying a house has made the decision of living on the road a cheap alternative. There is a lot of camping in the west but it seems popular areas have been overused and forced closures to cause people to find more remote areas and even those are becoming over crowded and over used as there is not enough enforcement of 14 day stay, littering laws and rules in general that are designed to protect the land. Even private land owners are experiencing difficulties due to increased pressure from new numbers of neighbors they never thought would move in. Hopefully given some time society will learn how to deal with this surge of people and deal with some of the problems they have caused. One of the reasons I promote National Recreation Areas is they attempt to deal with these problems and have a voice in the government, granted they are not doing too well but the public will not allow them to be shut down and will eventually demand they get fixed, not so much for BLM or state lands as they just get closed as that is the easy solution due to their size.

 

[jimindenver]

I was referring to Bob's YouTube channel which in turn gave you enough recognition to start your solar business. Not a damn thing wrong with that. In fact, I'm currently making use of my solar to be able to travel around the country and see the things I've been seeing.

Bob goes into great depth about taking care of the land and I believe most people are following that advice. His channel also promotes living on the road and even has videos on how to snowbird. Well, that's what I'm also doing. When I first got here the other day, the site I was planning on camping in is now posted with no camping signs so I had to go to plan b which is where I am now. The other site is right outside a neighborhood and it probably did get trashed. I don't have a crystal ball but I can imagine the locals going there and shitting the place up with shell casings and broken glass, maybe even a homeless camp with lots of trash. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen that.

It just pissed me off that someone with high visibility who is indeed promoting boondocking by designing mobile solar systems goes off on the fact that people are actually boondocking now. The people following the weather are naturally going to go up and there's only so much up to go to. This isn't just dwellers. There are high dollar rigs out here now that don't have to suffer the suckability of the campgrounds with hookups and can camp in nature.

Bottom line, I don't blame dwellers for everything that goes wrong in dispersed camping areas. Not even close. It was the words "we" and "us" that set me off. I am not part of any "we" or "us" that Flagstaff is worried about burning their city down. And another thing not necessarily directed at you. There is a big fat 'ninby' going on in the RV world. The 'ninbys' promote and camp on pristine land here out west, but they don't want anyone else doing it when it inconveniences them.

Yes, trash is a problem. I don't know what the solution is

Wait...what? Me being upset that people are doing what I have been talking about for over a decade? I don't remember saying that It's kind of funny considering my discussions on forums, talks at the RTR's, videos with Bob and my own YouTube, helping people and as you mentioned, designing solar systems all promote it.

Doing it in a way that negatively affects everyone is another thing.



As far as the We and Us thing. Being part of the "We" means part of this community. It doesn't mean you are being blamed personally for the problem but it doesn't exclude you from being part of the solution either. Teaching one person to not leave a hot fire, not trash out the place or stay too long could have a bigger impact than you think.

 

[Cousin_Eddie]

“We lost a lot of ground around Flagstaff this year”


Sad to here, I never camped in the area but would like the option to do so. I have some really great free campsite I’ve seen trashed over the years and they have all remained open so far. Some areas are going to have more tolerance than others. Forest fire concerns, campers destroying land and vegetation, over staying the camping limit and trashing an area are on a long list of concerns.


People trashing parks and camping areas is nothing new and this certainly will continue to worsen
as more people visit parks and more are attracted to low cost nomad lifestyle. Why would anyone think of the need to hold an adult class on how to properly not leave your bags of trash behind at a campsite. People know better and don’t care period.


I’ve attended two RTR’s – The “WE” includes many who visit here. The same people who left bags of trash, who ripped-off toilet paper from the porta potties and also dumped trash and buckets of fecies in them. Take a walk in the washes and you would find toilet paper and other such non desirable about.


Sharing camping info is not the problem. There is not a person on this board that hasn't got free camping info from someone. Many of you are experienced and have a nice database of your favorite go to campsites, but that was certainly not the case when you first started out like many here. Do some here believe somehow they are more entitled to free camping spots than others?


I’m very thankful for the resources that are available and to the people who take the time to share the info. That helps me plan my destinations on road trips. Like most here, I’m a responsible adult and good steward of public lands. We often leave it in better condition than we found it. As such stewards, we should never be denied the resources for any and all camping areas.


Whats next? Should we not share info on auto repairs when in fact those very people may go out and cause an accident, injury or worse.

 

[Zmann]

...wisdom and discernment...I seek every day...

 

[Scott3569]

Not sure if this has been said in this thread or not..

But, something that would help all of us..

If we see it, take care of it, don't just leave it because someone else was not responsible enough..

I think if this is done, authorities will see the efforts..

and in all honestly, if we all chip in, and set the example.. I am willing to bet you would see change on this subject for the better

 

[G0ldengirl68]

Wait...what? Me being upset that people are doing what I have been talking about for over a decade? I don't remember saying that It's kind of funny considering my discussions on forums, talks at the RTR's, videos with Bob and my own YouTube, helping people and as you mentioned, designing solar systems all promote it.

Doing it in a way that negatively affects everyone is another thing.



As far as the We and Us thing. Being part of the "We" means part of this community. It doesn't mean you are being blamed personally for the problem but it doesn't exclude you from being part of the solution either. Teaching one person to not leave a hot fire, not trash out the place or stay too long could have a bigger impact than you think.

I agree and learned this some time ago.  It wasn't easy the first time to admit where I was wrong, but to do so changed my life more than almost anything I've learned.  I am part of the problem and totally understood it when you spoke it that way Jim.  I am also part of the problem if I don't do a thing to change it for the better.  This has been the best post I've seen on this site because it opened my eyes to what I suspected would, or is happening "out there" and I'm using it to decide on how to proceed from it.

 

[G0ldengirl68]

and in all honestly, if we all chip in, and set the example.. I am willing to bet you would see change on this subject for the better

I hope you are right, but one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, or, spoil our freedom to live as responsible gypsies.

 

[G0ldengirl68]

Whats next? Should we not share info on auto repairs when in fact those very people may go out and cause an accident, injury or worse.

I agree, with all your post, but I think the crime needs to fit the punishment, but that just doesn't happen all the time in America.  I don't see it getting better either.  If we didn't discipline our children, how might they turn out?  Seems like rules and laws are made, but not enforced in some cases.  So, everyone others that are conscientious suffer too when our freedoms are shut down/No Camping.

 

[Scott3569]

I hope you are right, but one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, or, spoil our freedom to live as responsible gypsies.

It is a pretty simple concept, those who care, go into a spot, may need to clean up a little from the people before, if this is done by everyone that is concern about losing what we have.. it will work..

 

[bullfrog]

Just so you know certain areas in Colorado public lands are starting to establish campsites and use a reservation system to limit problems with trash and overuse where dispersed camping used to be permitted.