Wages and Unions - moved from: Things to do to keep feeling "normal" while living out of your van?

[rruff]

I will disagree. But the cycles are very long. I was born (1949) when union power was at its peak. It has been eroding ever since. I would expect that it will rebound in the next decades; so a cycle of ~ 100+ years?

It's not a natural cycle, and it's only happened once... certainly no way to establish a pattern.

We are entering a period where our socio-economic system is going to be drastically altered. Kinda like the feudal system shifting to the industrial revolution. We will probably revert back to something very like a feudal system, only with AI and machines taking the place of slaves, serfs, and peasants. Most humans will have a status similar to vermin... something that consumes resources and makes a mess, while producing nothing of worth.

 

[towboater]

Regarding "dirty jobs"... a free market would take care of that quite well... but employers balk at the wages required, and instead favor importing illegals.

In other words, for every "dirty job" there is a wage at which you can find enough people happy to do it. Pay it.

Totally agree.
My employer has a severe shortage of personnel in a critical area and because of this the work is performed in sometimes an unsafe manner. I said you can correct that problem if you get out your wallets. They told me I must be a Democrat. Ha!

 

[rvwandering]

Many of the posts that I moved into this new thread are political but I haven't deleted any of them because all of you are doing a great job of being civil while discussing wages and unions. Carry on!

 

[bullfrog !]

I worked as a garage supervisor for an independent school system in eastern Kentucky in the 1990’s. I trained drivers and maintained and developed safety programs for the state as well. The school systems were often the largest employers in many counties as industry jobs in many cases went overseas at that time. Federal laws made exceptions for school bus drivers to decrease costs of transportation of students by public schools. After seeing the district send a 72 year old driver out on a band competition trip across the state for a driving time of 14 hours and an on duty time of 20 hours with no relief driver or accommodations to rest during the 6 hour layover time as they needed to transport food during the event to save money I contacted a union and an attorney and the local news to offer drivers a chance to have their view point expressed. A union was formed but with limited rights as it was a government organization. Basically a seat at the table when decisions were made. Needless to say my time in management was limited but to me it was worth it. When reasonable people work together unions aren’t necessarily needed but that is seldom the case and the people that need them and are doing the physical work aren’t making anywhere near what the decision maker trying to get more out of them is. We all make choices in our lives but many become financially dependent on other peoples choices which are seldom reasonable or fair in todays world with weak unions trying to protect them. Capitalism turned monopoly has a lot of casualties.

 

[tx2sturgis]

It's always a rare and interesting diversion when we get to peer inside the past lives of some of our members.

Most of my working life I was in the logistics and transportation industry, and anyone who has not been involved in that will often be amazed at the money that can be made by people without a college degree, without a shingle on the wall, and sometimes not even a high school diploma.

High school 'drop-outs' with little or zero vocational training can sometimes end up making way past $100,000/yr by the mid-point in their career, if they stick with it. Its very common for truck drivers to make more money than the dispatchers and managers in the same office or warehouse after only a few years on the road.

And no, not just union drivers (teamsters) but others in the non-unionized workplace as well.

Even though the trucking industry is cyclical and seasonal, people are ALWAYS gonna need their 'stuff', and in most cases, their 'stuff' gets there by truck.

Autonomous trucks are WAY into the future, other than a few pilot programs here and there, so that means that for the foreseeable future, truck drivers and warehouse workers will always be in demand.

 

[egilbe]

I will disagree. But the cycles are very long. I was born (1949) when union power was at its peak. It has been eroding ever since. I would expect that it will rebound in the next decades; so a cycle of ~ 100+ years?

Consumers have the most power when there is a free market. Monopolies and collusion rob consumer power.

Governments want people poor and dependent, they are easier to manage.

The reason why the US had such a strong economy was because post WW2, it was the only developed country who didn't have to rebuild their entire infrastructure from the gound up. The US supplied all the finished goods to the bombed out countries so they could compete with the US. The US had a highly motivated and trained workforce already churning goods out of pristine and mostly brand new factories to be shipped overseas. All the demand and limited supply meant the US could charge what they wanted and pay what the unions demanded. The supply and demand came full circle when the developing countries were able to finally retool and start mass producing their own consumer goods by a populace happy to be alive.

 

[eDJ_]

Just as an aside...........

A lot of the attitudes that exist in our culture come from the arts. Music in particular as it comes thru the airwaves continuously.

I recall a lyric in a song by Prince titled "Raspberry Beret"

"They pretend to pay and I pretend to work".

I remember POTUS G. H. W. Bush warning that our infrastructure is crumbling and we disparately need to do something about it. But that is usually done with Tax Payer's Money. So if the uber wealthy who pay so little in taxes themselves pay barely enough for people to get by......how will the infrastructure that their industries depend on continue. I know, I know....."let them eat cake".

Historic footnote reference to this strike:

In the early 1950's in Guatemala the president....Jacobo Arbenez had made land & labor reforms in the country. This included redistribution to the peasants of some of United Fruit Company land. UFC didn't like anything Arbenez did or stood for and forces were brought to bear against him such that he was deposed in 1954.
One of the orchestrator's of this was E. Howard Hunt. (mentioned by name in President Eisenhower's speech in that same year) Che Guevera was in Guatemala during this same time and witnessed what was happening and saw Arbenez's reforms as being quite mild and moderate. This led Che to join with Castro afterwards and do what Arbenez didn't do......learning from Arbanez's "mistakes". They resolved to not go the way of Guatemala which they saw not so much as a Banana Republic but rather a Banana Colony held by the oppression of UFC.. At this time the USA cut off purchases of sugar from Cuba and Cuba turned to the Soviet Union for a market to sell their sugar in exchange for the goods that they needed. Castro had not been a "communist" prior to this. He had offered to buy back rural lands held by US interest for the peasants in Cuba with 20 year bonds at 4.5% apr thus demonstrating he was willing to play by capitalist rules. USA Government began to pay southern farmers to grow sugar cane and produce cane sugar after this and Castro branded to be seen as communist ever after. The CIA, American Corporate interest, and other wealthy interest were those bringing the pressures to bear against Cuba. This from David Talbot's new book "The Devil's Chessboard" pages between 252-344.

There may be a lesson in all of this for America's Unions.

 

[rruff]

The US supplied all the finished goods to the bombed out countries so they could compete with the US.

An oft repeated fallacy. The US had very little foreign trade, before and after WW2. We were essentially self contained... and so were the countries who needed to rebuild. That's why they were poor for decades after. But their poverty did not benefit us in any way.

The idea of international competition for trade is is another piece of propaganda that was foisted on us starting ~1980. This was the excuse for why our jobs were disappearing if they could be done cheaper elsewhere. It's our "lack of competition"... because we are overpaid! Total horse poop. Nobody trades unless it's for mutual benefit. In this case it benefited the wealthy greatly, but screwed the rest of us.

The "idea" which still hasn't happened, was that we'd farm out the labor intensive jobs and replace them with higher value added exports. But what they really wanted (and which has been the case for over 40 years) is to replace the lost jobs with trade deficits and perpetually escalating debt... and no jobs. This is how they made the US$ the world's reserve currency... and incidentally gutted unions and depressed wages, and made the rich, really rich.

 

[RonDean]

In Post WWII U.S. the GI Bill helped a lot! It increased educational levels and also spurred a housing boom. This, in turn resulted in more consumer spending as well as industrial expansion. Yes, helping to rebuild Europe via the Marshall Plan also helped our economy. It could also be argued that the stronger Unions at that time resulted in higher wages that also produced more dollars in middle class pockets. Finally, it didn't take long for the US to consider the USSR to be a threat and Cold War defense spending and its associated jobs also kept the economy in high gear.

I believe a combination of affordable education and retraining and more support for creating new jobs in emerging industries, such as clean energy and transportation could spur our economy and improve the living standard and happiness of many Americans. Maybe that is just because I want a better world than the one we currently have and would rather work toward that instead of being full of doom and gloom.

I don't know what the future holds, and I doubt anyone else here does either. We all listen to our own drummers, as far as our information streams go. I think it could go either way. But it's certainly not cast in stone.

 

[wayne49]

At the Bretton Woods Conference in 1944, the US Dollar was designated as The World Reserve Currency with the stipulation that each USD would be backed by physical gold held in reserve.

Nations had to borrow USD to rebuild, creating a demand for USD that raised the value of USD. So, yes, USA did prosper during the overseas recovery from WW2.

France in 1970's began redeeming USD holdings for physical Gold per the Bretton Woods Agreement. The US Gold Reserves were going to France, as a result Nixon closed the Gold Window, abrogating the Bretton Woods Agreement.

The irony is that France, the former colonial master of Vietnam, was screwing the US, as the US was bogged down in an unwinnable war in Vietnam. France also kicked US military bases out of France.

Since that point USD has been freely "printed" without any physical backing. Digits in a computer at a Federal Reserve District Bank transferred to another computer at a major investment bank. Money for Nothing.

Fifty three years of inflation by the Federal Reserve Bank creating dollars via electronic deposits to the Wall Street investment banks has taken its toll. The Trillions for bailouts during the Mortgage backed securities debacle was all electronic dollars with no physical backing.

 

[eDJ_]

Just saw this in Yahoo.

How do you see this ?

Despite the wave of boomers returning to work after the Great Retirement, there are still 2 million more retirees than America’s workforce can handle

 

[WanderingRose]

That link doesn’t work for me, but I found the article here on msn…

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/ret...an-america-s-workforce-can-handle/ar-AA1jL39s
When one can retire is such an individualized issue, based on so many factors.

 

[Morgana]

People are gonna bitch if we (seniors) do work and bitch if we don't work and they'll have a fancy argument either way. Social Security is supposed to support you fully or was never meant to be more than a supplement and they'll have a fancy argument either way.

Capitalism is a flawed system, and this is not the only piece that just doesn't add up. I don't know whether there's a better option out there or if we just have to keep tweaking this one. But it sure could be improved.

 

[bullfrog !]

Personally I’ve always managed.to be employed pretty much my entire life except for physical illness or extended travel. With the internet many today don’t even have those limitations by working remotely. Social Security for me is a small amount because I have had several years of work that did not participate in Social Security but in return furnished a small pension. My personal opinion is people should work as much as they can to substain a minimum living standard, anything that they make above the amount to do that should be taxed to help provide a minimum standard of living to those that cannot. In the United States where there is much prosperity there should not be people without a safe place to live, uneducated, malnourished or lacking medical/mental treatment. Social Security was and is a lifeline to older people and disabled people and in my opinion. It has never been enough or offered to enough people to fully meet the needs. If other programs were developed to coincide with it better it would be much better for everyone. It is sad people struggle to live long enough not to have to struggle only to find in many cases it is a false hope. I was fortunate to learn to live simply, survive and stay somewhat healthy at a young age. Everyone should receive that training and develop those skills and receive help to do so while young. Shelter, food, water and good health training and care shouldn’t be an issue in a country like the United States especially if you have survived to older age or have disabilities in my opinion. United we stand divided we fall means I worry about others around me because working together we can do more to make things better. Keeping people sheltered, healthy, educated and able to work makes everyone’s life better. In my opinion everyone should help to achieve those things but our government’s main responsibility should be to make everyone’s lives better and improve Social Security by increasing taxes to do so while improving education and health care programs as well as providing security and opportunities to all that come here seeking to live in this country.

 

[rruff]

Capitalism is a flawed system, and this is not the only piece that just doesn't add up. I don't know whether there's a better option out there or if we just have to keep tweaking this one. But it sure could be improved.

It's always been flawed. Marx accurately pointed out its tendency to self destruct 150 years ago, which is why it's been heavily regulated and controlled. Measures have been taken to spread the wealth to workers, who tend to be heavily disadvantaged when it comes to bargaining for their share of the "pie".

Every developed country uses a regulated/controlled form of capitalism. Some do it better than others... and we could learn from them. Society is always a mess though, and it could be a hell of a lot worse in the US than it currently is. We may not be "the shining light on the hill", but we ain't Mexico...

 

[Gr8ful]

Linemen obviously were not a category, else they would have been #3 with 42/100k.

In your other link, they only checked a single year. That isn't good data, as it is a small sample size and it fluctuates. They also say they make $68k/yr... is that good data?

I don't know why Linemans pay is dragged up again but I just found this in Zip Recruiter

18 of the Highest Paying Journeyman Lineman Jobs in 2023​

The best Journeyman Lineman jobs can pay up to $126,500 per year.​

A journeyman lineman builds and maintains the electrical power system. This is an advanced position that requires several years of experience in the field. In this career, you construct, maintain, and repair electrical distribution and transmission systems, both above and below ground. Your duties require you to be able to lift up to 50 pounds and be comfortable working at heights up to 60 feet, as you climb poles and lift equipment regularly. Responsibilities include operating aerial and excavation equipment, troubleshooting system problems, setting transformers, and more. Documentation and detailed reports are necessary. You may also train apprentices. Qualifications include apprenticeship completion, a Department of Labor Journeyman certification, a high school diploma, and the ability to work in various weather conditions.
To get a job as a journeyman lineman, you must first complete the apprentice level of training. In this entry-level position, you learn how to work with high voltage lines while assisting an experienced journeyman with maintenance and repairs of both electrical distribution and transmission systems. You are required to learn how to operate various equipment such as aerial devices, excavators, and more. It’s important to take this time to develop an understanding of all safety requirements. This job has some hazards, so safety is critical. To get into an apprenticeship, you need experience with manual labor, but it does not have to be within the electrician field.
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/g/Highest-Paying-Journeyman-Lineman-Jobs

 

[Morgana]

We may not be "the shining light on the hill", but we ain't Mexico...

Not yet anyway.
PS - VOTE

 

[RonDean]

People are gonna bitch if we (seniors) do work and bitch if we don't work and they'll have a fancy argument either way. Social Security is supposed to support you fully or was never meant to be more than a supplement and they'll have a fancy argument either way.

Capitalism is a flawed system, and this is not the only piece that just doesn't add up. I don't know whether there's a better option out there or if we just have to keep tweaking this one. But it sure could be improved.

I think too many people misunderstand various economic systems and the fact that in today's world there are no "pure" economic systems. It is a matter of estimating how much of each system different countries apply. Just as China and Russia do have parts of capitalism, so do we and most other most western countries employ some measure of government control. We try to limit monopolies and unfair practices, for example.

All that said, I agree that right now we are seeing some of the worst of the capitalist system playing out. And we seem unwilling to look outside our own borders to see what works better.

 

[Gr8ful]

I think people are changing also. At least here you can't find anyone that want's to work. It seems like no one has the drive or hustle they had pre-covid or before. Most think they're owed something. I owe no one & no one owes me as it should be. People don't even want to work 40 hours anymore. I almost never worked under 60. People today have as much or more oppertunity as we ever had. As far as Soc Sec goes, My employers & I payed 13% of my wages all those years into the fund so it's no handout like SSI,SNAP etc are. Also people used to be able to disagree & respect each other's views & still be friends, not any more & that's really sad IMHO.

 

[WanderingRose]

so it's no handout like SSI,SNAP etc are.

That’s a little harsh, isn’t it?

Disability and food stamps?