Traveling with firearms for security

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I talk to a guy every week who served 10 years in prison for shooting a man. This person came to his property with other assailents, threatened to kill him and his family, said he had a gun, reached into his pocket to pull it out. He didn't have a gun in his pocket turns out, i guess that's why the guy got manslaughter. It sounds to me like i woulda done the same but you might still go away.

When I took the LFI class with Massad Ayoob about 15 years ago, we talked about this some. It's called the "mood of the courts".

Short summary is this. There's the written law, and then there's the way the courts in your area INTERPRET the written law.

Mas's advice to us was not to depend on what the written law said, but to schedule an appointment with a good attorney in our locale and get his read on the local mood of the courts, and how they tended to interpret the written law.

Of course, that's hardly practical for those of us who wander the road to come-what-may. Best we can do is avoid the places where they're known to be weird about such things, such as NY, MA, NJ, MD, etc.

Regards
John

 

[highdesertranger]

you forgot kalifornia where everything is illegal. highdesertranger

 

[Ballenxj]

Van Tramp, Thanks for this truly informative thread. From the stats and real life scenarios I have witnessed, I have to believe the bad guys are severely curtailed when they have to worry that their intended victims may have the ability to fight back using potentially lethal force.
Levels the playing field now, doesn't it?

 

[GrayWhale]

Yep, if I am going to pull then I am fully expecting to use the full lethality of that weapon. If I were to go out of my way to use a less-lethal bullet, then I shouldn't be pulling that weapon at all. If killing is not required, then neither is the gun.

Guns are not meant to be "less lethal", nor are the laws about using that gun. Prepare to kill or don't draw at all. That's my opinion anyway.

I respect your opinion and how you chose to use such tool, in this case a gun, but I disagree.

To me, it's about the risk(s) you're willing to take. Be it the risk of pulling out my gun and not shooting someone due to hesitation, thus getting shot by them or shooting someone and going to jail for a long time for it. Cops, with all of their training, still sometimes hesitate due to the legal troubles that they can have afterward, and sometimes they get shot and die.

I've brandished a gun a few times. Most of the time that I brandished it, I had very little intentions of shooting anyone, especially the times when I merely lifted up my shirt to show my gun that's tucked in my waistband to hopefully end the threat, which they all did. I know that there are people who aren't afraid of having a gun pointed at them and luckily, I haven't ran into any of them.

I'm also decently trained in Krav Maga and a good amount of gun disarming. And what I'm doing with my nonchalantly brandishing, goes against much of such KM principles. Because if someone just shows me their gun in the waistband at striking distance, they can pretty much consider themselves knocked out. Someone pointing a gun at me within arms length, then I'll probably go for the disarm, take it, pistolwhip them in the face a few times with their own gun and maybe shoot them. Or I can get shot and die.

But I don't have the mindset that if I draw a gun, I'd have to have 100% intentions to kill anyone. I probably could, but haven't yet, nor want to. There's really no training for such a thing. Even if someone's a hardcore and well experienced killer, each situation is different. Just like fighting, and I've been in over 100 fights at least, ranging from streetfights to competition fights. There's just little or no planning at all for them. Just that with a gun, a simple pull of the trigger can inflict massive damage to death, which may follow with massive legal problems and financial burdens.

 

[Van-Tramp]

I hear what you are saying GrayWhale. I too have "pulled" my weapon three times and in none of those cases have I pulled the trigger. The real question is "would I"? Most certainly, without hesitation, if it was necessary to protect my life or the life of another. Would I pull that trigger in an attempt to just injure or scare? Nope... If I draw it is likely that person dead soon. That is what I am saying... if you can not accept that you will be killing someone, then you should seriously reconsider carrying at all. Otherwise, all you will be doing is supplying the means to your own death when he takes it from you.

But you are right, each situation requires different reactions and thought processes. The better trained, the better decision you will make in the heat of the moment. The fact that I did not kill anyone in those three times I drew my gun is because the situation resolved itself once I did draw (they ran, like the wind!). If they had advanced on me, yes they would have been a corpse.

Now, as for your brandishing - it is illegal to do what you say you have done in many states. Lifting your shirt to "show" is illegal in some states. Heck, "warning shots" are illegal in much (most) of the country. If you are not in enough danger to pull it out and actually use it, then you should not be brandishing it at all if you ask me. If you are in enough danger, then you need to have that gun up and ready, with finger on the trigger with full intentions to take that life.

 

[GrayWhale]

Now, as for your brandishing - it is illegal to do what you say you have done in many states. Lifting your shirt to "show" is illegal in some states. Heck, "warning shots" are illegal in much (most) of the country. If you are not in enough danger to pull it out and actually use it, then you should not be brandishing it at all if you ask me. If you are in enough danger, then you need to have that gun up and ready, with finger on the trigger with full intentions to take that life.

It depends. There's this one time, two guys followed me from a road rage incident and got out of their car. I fought 2 on 1 before, but only because I had to. I had my gun on me and lifted up my shirt to brandish it and they turned around, cussed at me and left. Now what you did is called "wielding", where you took it out and pointed at them in a threatening manner. So I'm not sure why "brandishing" would be more illegal than "wielding". I mean, of course if they called the cops, then I'm certainly going to cry bloody murder that I thought they were going to kill me. It's not like my weapon was brandished due to a parking space dispute.

But it's still hard to say whether or not I can shoot someone. There's really no training that can replicate real life when it comes to shooting people. Like gangbangers, they hardly have any training, just real life killings of each other. Now the ones that have killed before and more than 1-5 times, they certainly can kill people. To get up close to someone and shoot someone in the face one cue is pretty freaky. Most cops never even experienced this. Even soldiers in theaters of war, the distance is not that close most of the time. A mob hitman, absolutely that they can kill. Me, I would more likely keep warning someone with my weapon drawn and if that doesn't work, then maybe escalate to pistolwhiping them into a bloody mess to see if that ends it. Hopefully I made the right choice.

 

[steveh2112]

i read that link on the OP about states gun laws, so please correct me if i'm wrong but is it legal and no trouble at all from the police, to drive around the USA with an unloaded 12 gauge shotgun in the van?

also, suppose i wanted to do a bit of skeet shooting in a quiet area on BLM land or similar area, is that ok?

thx

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

also, suppose i wanted to do a bit of skeet shooting in a quiet area on BLM land or similar area, is that ok?

thx

Were you going to police up every scrap of broken clay bird when you were done?  If not, I'm pretty sure you'ld be littering.

Regards
John

 

[steveh2112]

Were you going to police up every scrap of broken clay bird when you were done?  If not, I'm pretty sure you'ld be littering.

Regards
John

no idea, never done it but i assumed since they are 'clay' that they are biodegradable. i guess it depends what type you buy

http://whiteflyer.com/targets/

 

[wagoneer]

I crossed the Mexican/Texas border in my then stepvan home 25 years ago. I got the ol' please pull over there and get out of the vehicle, I explained my purpose for having a printing press in the back and saw where this was going so I volunteered the fact that I had a Mossberg 12 Ga. above the driver side window just in case . It was reg. in my name they ran the numbers and after 3 hours told me to have a nice day.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Unloaded guns are generally fully legal to carry in your auto in any state. Federal travel laws protect you if you are "passing through" a state, but some states like to ignore those laws and arrest you anyway (NY, NJ, CA) but mainly do so for pistols. Unloaded shotguns are fairly safe, just have your ammo locked up and in a different compartment (trunk) or at very least well outside of your reach (rear of van).

The Federal Law requires the firearm to be 1) unloaded, 2) locked in a case/box/trunk (glove box or center console is not recommended but can still be legal), 3) ammo locked in a separate area than the driver (out of reach of the driver if no separate areas, like in a van), an 4) you are "passing through" the state, not stopping for any length of time. Fueling up at a gas station is OK, but parking overnight would not be considered "passing through".

Skeet shooting in BLM and National Forest is 100% OK and legal (unless otherwise posted). Do pickup your spent shells and any other targets. Do buy the biodegradable clays (they melt away after a rain or two) to avoid all the trouble of picking those up and they do not cost any more than the others.

@Wagoneer - I do not know of any states that require registration of long guns like shotguns. In many states (like my CO) it is actually against they law for the Government to have any form of registration.

Also, I think we should be very clear that crossing into or out-of Mexico with a firearm (loaded or not) or even a single bullet (already shot or not) will get you arrested in Mexico and you will NOT be coming home anytime soon. I know you were not saying that you did so recently, but I'd hate for anyone to think that your experience 25 years ago was valid today. Mexico is EXTREMELY anti-gun. Do not cross that border with one.

 

[Seraphim]

There are some ways to properly phrase your words, should you find yourself explains why you shot someone.

"I was in fear for my life"

"I couldn't get away."

"I shot to stop his attack. When he stopped attacking, I stopped shooting."

Some states are stand your ground, others expect you to walk away from a situation if you can. If a 70 year old man, with a cane has a knife and is 30' away from you, if you can walk or run away in the opposite direction, you're probably going to get charged if you shoot him, because he was not close enough to cause you harm. If you were backed into a corner, and no way out - that's different. Follow this basic rule in any state - don't rely on stand your ground. That can be the gray area for many people - professional or not.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Just to add to this...

A loaded shotgun is illegal to carry in a vehicle in almost all states (hunting laws) to prevent people from hunting from the roadways. "Loaded" usually means "one in the chamber" so you MAY be able to have some in the tube, but I wouldn't bet on it, The fine is not worth it. If you are carrying it for skeet shooting, unload and safe that sucker. If you are carrying for protection, get the right tool, such as...

A loaded pistol is legal to carry in a vehicle in more state than you may think. Some require it to be visible (open carry) while others require it to be concealed at all times. Some states require you to inform any officer that may pull you over, others do not. Most states (31 at my last count) allow openly carried and loaded pistols on your body and in autos WITHOUT A PERMIT.

Obviously, you would have a lot of homework to do before a cross-country trip, but it is quite possible to stay within those states

 

[offroad]

Contact NRA. Am sure they have free literature.

 

[highdesertranger]

x2 on cleaning up you mess when target shooting. once we were target shooting when we were done we were cleaning up, we had just finished when up pulled mr. ranger. he said he was watching us through binoculars we didn't know he was there and we were in a no shooting area. however since we did such a fine job cleaning up and most people don't even bother he was going to let us go with a warning. moral of the story, if you do the right thing when no one is watching good karma will come back to you. highdesertranger

 

[Van-Tramp]

Agreed. My normal thing is that I go out with a lot of boxes of ammo, targets, etc. When I have shot through all the ammo/targets, each box must be filled with trash before I haul them back out. This usually means that I pack OUT more than I brought IN. I was amazed one time when a couple 20-somethings noticed it and came over to say thanks. Usually the 20-somethings are the problem, but even they understood. That was nice.

Since my teenage son (and some of his friends) regularly shoot with me, they too are being taught this as normal practice. I'd like to think that my doing this will result in dozens of generations, of my family, doing the same. I hope...

 

[LeeRevell]

My local outdoor range is administered by the Federal Parks department. They are positively weird about trash - you can (and I have seen it done!) get fined for carrying it OUT. They consider that the job of their paid contract clean-up crew.
In Florida, it is legal as per state statues to carry a loaded pistol in your locked glove box/console, if it is also holstered. It is considered that if it takes two r more separate 'movements' to access the weapon, you are legal. I keep mine holstered, under the inside tray, and the console box locked. No way to quickly access it for a 'road rage' action. But if I do need it, it is reasonably quick to access. I do not yet have a CCW permit. Working on that.

 

[anm]

i read that link on the OP about states gun laws, so please correct me if i'm wrong but is it legal and no trouble at all from the police, to drive around the USA with an unloaded 12 gauge shotgun in the van?

also, suppose i wanted to do a bit of skeet shooting in a quiet area on BLM land or similar area, is that ok?

thx

I have been told by National Forest and BLM personnel that it is perfectly acceptable to shoot on their land, and I and my son have done so. The land they manage is public land. Of course common sense rules always apply, and you will need state issued hunting permits if that is your intention. Target shooting and plinking should be no problem...

 

[anm]

I crossed the Mexican/Texas border in my then stepvan home 25 years ago. I got the ol' please pull over there and get out of the vehicle, I explained my purpose for having a printing press in the back and saw where this was going so I volunteered the fact that I had a Mossberg 12 Ga. above the driver side window just in case . It was reg. in my name they ran the numbers and after 3 hours told me to have a nice day.

That will not happen now. You cross into Mexico with ANY firearm you will be spending time in their jail, it doesn't matter if it's registered or not. What many people do is put their gun in a plastic bag and bury it in the desert on the US side before crossing. Also make sure you have no ammo in your vehicle, they treat that just as bad as a firearm. Do not attempt to cross into Mexico with a weapon and/or ammo in your vehicle...

 

[anm]

Also the Mexicans use a green light/red light system at the border, if you receive a red light then you and your vehicle will get a very thorough search. I'm not sure what the criteria is that determines which light an individual receives...