Too poor to retire and too young to die

[buckwilk]

In 2008 a lot of people woke up one day and the world had left them broke, many others were on their way to being broke and homeless. I'm sure all of them got just what they deserved, right? 

Like a friend who had been a faithful employee of Bank of America for 20 years, then in 2009 they could save a buck so closed his whole division of IT and sent it to India. I'm sure they all got what they deserved. I guess I'm not as good a friend as you are because I never could bring myself to tell my friend from Bank of America that he got what he deserved. I guess I should have made him feel a little worse than he already did. Like you said "What's the difference?"

I look at Karma a little differently than you do. I think I can either be part of correcting people and making them feel a litttle worse, or I can be the part that offers them hope and compassion. No one needs more hope and compassion  than I do so that's what I try to spread around. It seems to be working pretty well for me so far. I hope your way is working well for you.
Bob

You and I often disagree, you are dead on here.

 

[morongobill]

My best advice for the lady is to just quit paying the credit cards and go bankrupt. It is obvious she can never get them paid so go bk before they change the laws again.

I will leave the personal judging to others more qualified to do so.

 

[Seadog729]

I agree with Snow Gypsy
Something tells me that this woman is actually enjoying the moving around and having the jobs that she has and that a news person decided to exploit her situation. I have seen several stories like this that were negative toward the RV lifestyle. Most of the people failing in the RV lifestyle were failing in the stick/bricks lifestyle and just took their problems along with them. A lifestyle change is more than just moving from a fixed resident to a mobile one.

There are plenty of resources in my community where you can go to food banks, soup kitchens and clothing exchanges. There is a site on facebook for free stuff. I camp for free on my friends property for up to 6 weeks in the summer. I down sized from a high top camper van to a cargo van to save money on gas, and made a real difference. There are so many creative ways to NOT spend money, it amazes me. It allows me to pay it forward when ever I have the chance, and I do.

 

[morongobill]

I agree with Snow Gypsy
Something tells me that this woman is actually enjoying the moving around and having the jobs that she has and that a news person decided to exploit her situation. I have seen several stories like this that were negative toward the RV lifestyle. Most of the people failing in the RV lifestyle were failing in the stick/bricks lifestyle and just took their problems along with them. A lifestyle change is more than just moving from a fixed resident to a mobile one.

There are plenty of resources in my community where you can go to food banks, soup kitchens and clothing exchanges.  There is a site on facebook for free stuff.  I camp for free on my friends property for up to 6 weeks in the summer.  I down sized from a high top camper van to a cargo van to save money on gas, and made a real difference.  There are so many creative ways to NOT spend money, it amazes me. It allows me to pay it forward when ever I have the chance, and I do.

Of course she does. You are right I would bet. She could do like a lot here and do city boondocking and find a local job to help out, she enjoys the travel.

The point about the negative stories is true judging by what I have read as well. Of course the establishment looks askance upon those that aren't following the rules and playing the game like everyone else. Or being square pegs that don't fit in the nice little cubbyhole that they want us to.

Or as Carlin said being just smart enough to turn on the machines and do the paperwork, not smart enough to see how they are being screwed. I paraphrased the last as his version was xxx and quoting that might get me banned We are the smart ones and know that we are being screwed by the establishment and this is our way of getting around it.

 

[Patd4u2]

I am having trouble with finding sympathy for someone that orders a prime rib meal to avoid grocery shopping while hungry or that goes on a $100 home tour rather than getting medical treatment that they need.

The math is fuzzy but I don't see how this woman's income comes anywhere close to covering her bills. A calculator online showed a minimum payment on her credit cards would be around $1,250 and would only lower her balance by 1%. Add the payment on the RV and she is up to $1,500 a month with 'just' those two items.

She isn't alone in that respect. A friend called me yesterday and related how he had $30K in credit card bills, an outstanding loan against his 401K, had used all of his tax refund to pay off his automatic check overdraft protection balance (19% interest) and was staring down an expensive trip to court to fight it out with his crazy EX. In spite of this he regularly spends money on himself and digs the hole deeper. This time it was tickets to a Beach Boys concert. HA! I'm always expecting him to ask for a loan when he calls. I have NO sympathy for him, he has brought every bit of it on himself and he has the most education and is the highest paid of all of my long term friends.

Guy

I feel the same way, hard to have sympathy for someone who at her age has still not learned how to prioritize.
I got rid of my cable last summer and watch mostly youtube videos on subjects that interest me. One of them is people that are now living in poverty in America, In many of the situations they find themselves living in now was not the case a few years ago, They all  were in the middle class with good paying jobs or business owners living a very comfortable life. Then lost everything do to the economy tanking. What I find interesting is that none of them thought of the future and lived like they were going to be making the same income until they retired. Big five bedroom house with a built in swimming pool in the back yard, new cars in the double or triple car garage, boat and RV in the driveway, vacations every summer, going out to eat all the time, and when they lost their job; wham, bankrupt and on the street.
People have forgotten how to live within their means in this country, it's all or nothing here. Put it on the credit card, I want it now... and when that one is maxed out get another one.
I was watching a youtube video of a guy demonstrating a new electrical gadget that fits into your wallet that you put all your credit/store/debit cards in and when you get to the cashier you can choose which one to use making it a lot easier to max them out. And I have seen it when I go shopping, people in front of me at the check out trying one credit card after another trying to find one that is not maxed out, and the things they were buying were not essential items, just "I want it".
Our media is much to blame for this situation. We are bombarded by advertisements non-stop on TV telling us what we need, or how sick we are and what medication we need to tell our doctor to prescribe to us.
And who suffers the consequences for all this brain washing?
The average family.

 

[Gypsy Jane]

I don't understand the debt, either. How did she even get anyone to give her that much credit? We moved into retirement with no debt. But I do know people our age who are still paying off cars and 2nd\3rd mortgages. That is just baffling.

It's really easy. You have excellent credit and pay your balance each month. Then sit happens. You get sick, vehicle trouble and unemployed all at once. You use your credit to prevent becoming a bag lady while you fix the vehicle so you can look for work and get to the doctor. Things don't get better fast enough, despite only buying necessities. You use credit to pay the credit bills. You run out of credit, miss payments, and the interest rate skyrockets. You've borrowed maybe $15,000 but now you owe $ 50K. That's how that happens.

 

[buckwilk]

Ever heard this--There but for the grace of God go I. If you are not dead, life may have some surprises in store for you. Hopefully they will be good ones, if not I hope they who judge you will not be harsh.

 

[Wanderer]

My best advice for the lady is to just quit paying the credit cards and go bankrupt. It is obvious she can never get them paid so go bk before they change the laws again.

I will leave the personal judging to others more qualified to do so.

I wouldn't. She could let them lapse, they "Might" try a lien on her vehicle, but that only prevents sale and...well, it's a POJ.

Since she only gets SS and a pension check then they can't touch it. Plus, she could go with an "E-Bank"

But she could chat with a lawyer about a BK. But frankly, I just ignored the calls and after awhile, they quit (Except for one) they'll die in 3 years...maybe 4.

 

[morongobill]

I wouldn't. She could let them lapse, they "Might" try a lien on her vehicle, but that only prevents sale and...well, it's a POJ.

Since she only gets SS and a pension check then they can't touch it. Plus, she could go with an "E-Bank"

But she could chat with a lawyer about a BK. But frankly, I just ignored the calls and after awhile, they quit (Except for one) they'll die in 3 years...maybe 4.

Been there, done that. Sure would be hard to find her if she didn't want to be found. Unfortunately it seems to me like her financial windows that once were still open are closing now and that old rv or the toad ain't gonna go on forever and she'll need cold hard cash if her credit is gone. The sands of time are running out too, not enough time to let bad debts drop off.....

Probably should hold off on a bk all things considered and spend the dough for the lawyer somewhere else.

 

[DesertDweller]

In 2008 a lot of people woke up one day and the world had left them broke, many others were on their way to being broke and homeless. I'm sure all of them got just what they deserved, right? 

Like a friend who had been a faithful employee of Bank of America for 20 years, then in 2009 they could save a buck so closed his whole division of IT and sent it to India. I'm sure they all got what they deserved. I guess I'm not as good a friend as you are because I never could bring myself to tell my friend from Bank of America that he got what he deserved. I guess I should have made him feel a little worse than he already did. Like you said "What's the difference?"

I look at Karma a little differently than you do. I think I can either be part of correcting people and making them feel a litttle worse, or I can be the part that offers them hope and compassion. No one needs more hope and compassion  than I do so that's what I try to spread around. It seems to be working pretty well for me so far. I hope your way is working well for you.
Bob

I couldn't have said this better, Bob. We lost four houses in Vegas in the crash, and watched the U Haul trucks drive out of town on a daily basis. "There, by the Grace of God go I" is more appropriate when someone is down. We're fortunate that we still have one property left, even though it's a dump. We know all too well what it feels like to lose everything, along with the death of three beloved family members all while the economy collapses around us. If we're ever lucky enough to meet this dear lady, I'd be honored if she would have dinner with us. If we had a good day at our vending, I'd even make us all a delicious prime rib dinner! 

 

[morongobill]

Dolores Westfall, the lady profiled first in the article this thread was based on, passed away from Pancreatic cancer the end of April, 2017.

This article goes into detail of what happened for her after the original article was published, and the end of her journey.

Thanks to the Times staffer who kept in touch with her and who was there out in the California desert with her family where her ashes were scattered.

A sad farewell for Dolores Westfall, whose 'retirement' was motoring from job to job in an RV

 

[TrainChaser]

People who have a good, steady income most of their lives and don't save anything, aren't going to change once they lose nearly everything. That's just how it is. I have a brother and a sister like that. I have a neighbor and two friends like that. They don't even seem to understand the concept of changing. There's no point in beating them over the head with it. They will die in debt, and it will finally end.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I've carefully watched people my entire life and have always strived to learn from other's mistakes, including my parents. I was a hard worker from as early as I can remember.....i'd walk around the neighborhood and knock on doors seeing if anyone wanted their lawn mowed, leaves raked or snow shoveled depending on the season. I saved as much money as I could from all my jobs starting way back then and continuing til today. I lost it all overnight in 2008 and rebounded extremely fast, through a bit of luck, a lot of hard work, and learning a few lessons from my personal mistakes made prior to the crash.

All that being said, I often wonder.....why do so few people save or plan for retirement? I feel like it's wide spread info at this point, everyone knows someone that's struggled with retirement. But it doesn't seem to change many people's behaviors. It seems my grandparents generation (WWII) were much better at financial planning than my parents (Baby Boomer) generation. What changed? I wonder where my own generation (Generation X) will land in that department. The view from my limited bubble is we aren't going to fare well. Most my friends are close to a six figure college debt, car loans, credit card debt and living at home in their 30's. I try and give them advice on what's worked for me but it always falls on deaf ears.

 

[waldenbound]

Rest in peace Dolores.

 

[Richard]

In light of some criticisms in this thread, perhaps some will find this insight useful:

The just world hypothesis, also known as the just world fallacy, is the idea that all actions have predictable and just consequences. The hypothesis implies (although sometimes only subconsciously) a belief in some sort of universal force that ensures moral balance in the world, in such a way that a person who exhibits good and moral behavior will eventually be rewarded, while evil and immoral actions will eventually be punished. It is both a concept in theology and considered to be a cognitive bias in psychology. It is summed up by this phrase "Everything happens for a (good) reason."
...
In psychology, the just world hypothesis also goes under the name of "system justification theory." Just world or system justification can be seen at work when people blame rape victims because their hemlines did not meet specification or define individuals who are poor as just lazy slobs, otherwise they would have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps already. Just world thinking is correlated with religiosity, conservative political orientation, and admiration for political leaders, but also altruism in some cases.

Some accounts associate two motivators underlying the "just world hypothesis." The first is the desire to believe that all the good things one has are attributable primarily or solely to one's self, hard work, and superior character and morality. The second is a refusal to accept that bad things can happen to one's self and one's loved ones due to circumstances beyond control.

--excerpted from RationalWiki's Just world hypothesis page.

Additional reading:

• Just World Hypothesis, PsychCentral.
• The Just-World Fallacy, You Are Not So Smart.
• The Just-World Theory, Santa Clara University.

 

[user 37446]

People who have a good, steady income most of their lives and don't save anything, aren't going to change once they lose nearly everything.  That's just how it is.  I have a brother and a sister like that.  I have a neighbor and two friends like that.  They don't even seem to understand the concept of changing.  There's no point in beating them over the head with it.  They will die in debt, and it will finally end.

Unfortunately, I too have a brother who isn't saving. He and his wife have a combined $3,500 monthly income, a 3,600 sf paid for house and still cannot save. Why? A variety of reasons for sure - he would tell you it's their over $800 a month medical premiums and constant copays. (I would think that to go to the dr for every sniffle is an issue). Then there's the drug costs (again I would hazard a guess that lifestyle choices, being that they both are between 50-80 pounds overweight, drink alcohol, eat out on a regular basis and she doesn't exercise) due to aches and pains. So yes, if you lose $1,000 a month for medical costs, that's a lot. Then there's paying the utilities and property taxes on a $500K Colorado property, that's a bit... :s

Oh, I failed to mention the $25K hot rod, the 2014 Diesel top end Chevy 4x4, the (2014) new 32 foot 5th wheel..., her sports car...  :huh:  

It's all choices. I have a Prius and a 2 bedroom condo. I'm not pleading poverty at all, I actually have too many things still. (No storage unit, but I do have a 1 car garage).  

He's been retired now for, umm, 6 or 7 years, and lives each month like its his last.  
Is there a problem with living "to the fullest" every month?  Well, some would say so and some would not. It's his/her choice.  

I have often asked them to sell out now that real estate in Denver is "high" (pun intended) again, and then they could pay off the c cards and have enough savings for the later years however each wants their luxuries too much. I fear for them if a pension fund goes broke (his is in danger), but they won't budge.  While they actually are very, very fortunate as compared to many CRVL members who just have their van, they have access to all the same news and information that we do, yet that's their choice.

I freely admit that I visit twice a year, enjoy steaks and beer for dinner, and am blessed by their generosity. So no throwing rocks.

 

[slynne]

I do the thing where I pay myself first and have retirement money deducted from my paycheck before I ever see it. I do this because I am a bad saver. It is a personality trait and frankly one that people have less control over than people think. I see a lot of people's financial problems, even the ones where it seems like their own fault or a moral failing, as being more outside of their control than people think. Not being a saver is not a fault imho. It just is what it is. Luckily for me, there are ways to trick oneself into saving and what has worked for me is two things. I never see the money and I don't allow myself to think of my retirement accounts as my money. Because it isnt my money. That money belongs to Future Lynne. Not everyone realizes that they have to trick themselves into saving though and just focus on having more will power. That works about as well as dieting (ie there is a reason most people who try to lose weight gain it back and it isn't that they lack will power) On a side note, willpower with food uses the same parts of the brain as willpower with money such that in Psych experiments, it has been demonstrated that if you put a person on a strict diet, they are more likely to make bad financial decisions or if you put people on a strict financial budget, they are more likely to eat poorly.

The only reason I have any money at all for retirement is that my parents put a lot of pressure on me to sign up for my company's 401(k) program so I could get the match. Not everyone has parents or social networks who will keep us from making bad decisions when we are young though. Our systems fail people imho. For instance, if people had to opt out of 401(k) programs rather than opt in, a whole lot more people would have retirement savings. That is one reason why pensions were so good for people, they didn't have a choice to opt out.

This is why, imho, Social Security is so important. You can't opt out or at least not easily. I feel sorry for people who have to live off just social security but my goodness, could you imagine people's situations if that weren't an option? Even though I have a significant amount of money in my 401(k), I don't know what kind of bad luck market forces completely outside of my control might cause me to lose all of it. I take great comfort knowing that if push comes to shove, I could move into a van and live comfortably on my SS. At least as long as I didn't suffer any major health issues.

Who knows that the future will bring? If I end up destitute, does that make me a moral failure if sometimes when I was younger I took expensive vacations or ate out at nice restaurants? I don't think so. I am planning on keeping my job for as long as I can but there are no guarantees there. Still, I don't think it is entirely out of line for me to spend some of the money now rather than being like my grandparents who saved everything. My coal minor/auto worker grandparents died with over a half a million dollars in assets and it breaks my heart that they never really did a lot. One trip to Russia and Poland to visit relatives and that was it! That was the ONLY real vacation they took in their entire lives. That is no way to live either imho.

 

[VanKitten]

I know a fair number of seniors who scrimped and saved their whole lives. Never bought anything they could not pay for on the spot. Never enjoyed a vacation. Never indulged a whim. Saved and saved. Plan for the golden years.

Finally, found they could no longer live independently and needed to move into assisted living. Within only a couple of years spent every single penny of a lifetime of savings. For-profit stripped them of everything. Then nursing homes took all of their income, and dumped them onto Medicaid.

Why did they live a "financially responsible" life? From where I sit it sure looks like they did it to feed the for-profit health care industry. The investor class took it all. The 10% are growing fantastically wealthy at the same time that the huge bubble of elders population are paying all their savings to their business of health care.

In the end it was just the same as the people who saved nothing, but....the road to get there was filled with depriving themselves.

In spite of her having to live and work all the way to the end...I still think Delores had a far better end than these sad people in nursing homes. If I must pick...I will remain on my own, in my car/van/RV till the heart attack....and then hope no one gets to me fast enough to haul me off to the for-profit medical center followed by for-profit nursing home.

 

[gcal]

In spite of her having to live and work all the way to the end...I still think Delores had a far better end than these sad people in nursing homes.      If I must pick...I will remain on my own, in my car/van/RV till the heart attack....and then hope no one gets to me fast enough to haul me off to the for-profit medical center followed by for-profit nursing home.

I don't think the tragedy of Delores's life was that she had to work. I think it was that she did not want to work, but had put herself in that position with decades of bad decisions.

 

[VanKitten]

She could have been very responsible...saved her money...and ended in just the broke, sad environment of the nursing home on Medicaid. Made all the "right" decisions...and ended far worse. Unless you have many millions...you will not have enough savings to continue to pour money into the for profit healthcare business and not be bled dry.

Just my opinion. But..."forced to work" and live (LIVE) on the road...or nursing home? Even she herself opted for the experience over the "right" thing. (Tour or dentist)

It is all just in the perspective. Many "normal" people living their lives in their ruts see me as a tragic figure. Living as a nomad..."homeless".