The Future of Van Life

[Ardvarkacus]

I don't have much recent experience with long term camping or overnighting in the US but here in Oz, particularly Victoria, NSW, and to a degree South Australia, councils have begun to come down hard on nomads and our small gypsy population, especially in the suburbs.

Which is ironic due to all the money spent on billboards, road signs, and media championing the safety and benefits of "30 minute power naps" for the fatigued.

To add insult to injury, many of our parks and preserves require paid permits to use. About 15-25 AUD a night though there are still places one can use fee free. It just takes perseverance. Then there are the caravan parks around tourist areas or in the middle of nowhere which councils seem to want to herd visitors into at prices not much cheaper than sharing an apartment or house with another.

I'm still on path to go full time nomad though. Councils can't stop people from using private land with owner permission and it helps to have friends scattered all over the place.

My rig is late model and slowly getting tricked out with all the overland gear and mod cons over the coming months and 2019.

My plan is not be stealth at all. They can have a tour of the rig if they seem interested...and an expresso or cappuccino with me if they have the time. Why hide? I'd rather inspire and dazzle them. Worst they can do is laugh and ask I move on.

 

[QinReno]

Good attitude, what. People in the US don't know much about the issues in Oz land. All of our parks here, as well as the vast majority of "organized" CGs require a fee. What about if you go out to the real outback, eg, Broken Hill or up the highway to Alice Springs?. From the movies (Mad Max Road Warrior, of course) that looks a lot like our BLM land here, much of which is free for boondocking. The city councils here all pass their own metro statutes, of course, and the no-rent homeless people tend to leave a mess for others to clean up.

 

[Ardvarkacus]

Alice and Broken Hill are easily enough stayed in though Alice has a fair share of undesirable behaviours which is best to avoid. Broken Hill is touristy.

 

[John61CT]

Aussie culture and most of its landscape is **so** much more open to free camping and the nomad lifestyle compared to most of the US.

Just the idea that it is standard for town councils to own tax-subsidised swimming pools, caravan campsites, tennis courts & golf courses, etc, would have the right-wingers here up in arms with pitchforks screaming about socialism.

Be grateful.

 

[Ardvarkacus]

Back in the day, yes. Now the environmentalists and tax collectors rule the roost. Most of my favourite remote sites have had ditches dug at access points and logs laid over for good measure.

 

[QinReno]

Yeah, actually there are large areas of BLM land anymore in the US that are fenced off and with no access. That was very true when I was up in central Oregon around Bend and Redmond. I drove all over the place in the area. Rich developers are putting in resorts, buying BLM land to do so, and limiting access in surrounding areas. Blocking off roads that used to go into the boonies. Must be some palm-greasing going on. 

Arizona still has large open areas, eg around Quartzsite, but I had plenty of trouble finding places in southeastern Arizona around Tombstone. Still, there are 100s of millions of acres in the western US. I think the places being limited have a lot to do with cities nearby and rich resort developments paying county taxes. Hmmm, just like in Oz.

 

[Brian_and_Jesse]

I think that perhaps the biggest thing nomads have going for them to protect them from any future local laws banning vehicle dwelling is our mobility. Are they going to ban people from going on vacations? Ban road trips? I suppose that urban/stealth dwelling in place in the same neighborhood for months at a time wouldn't really fit with a claim of "I'll be moving on in the morning, officer."

Also, what is the alternative? Do they force us out of our vehicles or trailers and into tents or onto the sidewalks? Do they force us into rentals or mortgages? Do they physically make us live in s&b? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly not understanding how any such outlawing of this way of life would be enforced. How can they MAKE us purchase s&b housing?

I don't think that outlawing this on any sort of large scale would be enforceable.

~angie

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

If it comes to that, Angie, they’ll just round up all dissidents and either put them into (already built and vacant) interment ‘camps,’ or dispose of them.

Personally, I believe that the growing millions of *actual* homeless people, people who literally live on the streets, and people who live in makeshift tents on sidewalks etc., most of whom are either drug addicts or mentally ill, will be targeted long before well-behaved van dwellers will.

Brian and I had an interesting summer, which might help to put vehicle dwelling in to perspective.

Because of the ridiculous price of gas in Canada at the moment (circa $6.40 a gallon, on average), we decided to park (store for $180 a month) our trusty RV, and summer in our car.

One of our daughters is chronically ill, and she has an active three-year-old, so she asked if we could come and help her for the summer.

She lives 3,000 miles from where we do, so we loaded up our car and headed east, wheelchair and all.

Thankfully, our car seats recline in to surprisingly comfortable beds, but we had to rearrange our possessions every night, which meant placing my wheelchair on the roof of the car. (I have a plastic ‘disabled’ tag, which I’m sure was to our advantage.)  Still, there was nothing stealthy about our presence anywhere, as our car (a Kia Spectra) has windows all around it, so anyone and everyone could see us sleeping, covered, as we were, with a couple of thick, white duvets.  

The weather wasn’t helpful in that it was baking (well over 100°F) on many days, and uncomfortably cold at night.  Again, thankfully, we have air conditioning and a skylight, so travelling was fun, and our duvets kept us warm and snug at night.

We spent most nights in Tim Horton’s parking lots - a Canada-wide, mostly 24/7 donut franchise - and we used their facilities for our personal hygiene needs, as well as gas stations for simply toileting.

We’re we questioned?  Yeup, even though we’d asked permission from the individual Tim Horton’s managers to sleep there, telling them that we were making our way across the country to help our sick daughter etc., IOW - the truth.

We were questioned by passing LEO’s, who were *all* polite and accommodating, and we were questioned by nosy patronizers of the drive-thru windows at Tim’s.  Some of them were less than cordial, but *we* were polite and friendly, so they had no choice but to leave us alone in short order.  (Some people really need to get a life!)

Due to our infirmities, we drove an average of five hours a day, so the trip took much longer than it used to - eleven days, I think, to drive 3,000 miles - each way.

The *real* fun began after we arrived at our daughter’s place.  She and her husband (who also works another 12-hour-a-day job) serve as caretakers for a small retail/industrial complex, and they live on site.  The complex belongs to our son-in-law’s uncle Rob, who knew that we were coming, so we didn’t anticipate a problem.

We were wrong.

I couldn’t sleep in our daughter’s apartment because she has two cats, which I’m allergic to, and I also need to sleep in a semi-reclining position on ROHO medical cushions. I’ve needed to do this for sixteen years so it wasn’t a surprise to anyone, except, as it turns out, to Rob.

We were there for two days (our daughter kept the cats downstairs), helping Beth and bothering no one, as the complex was completely empty at night, when we were sleeping.

However, some business owner must have come in at the crack of dawn and seen us sleeping.  She (yes, I know who it was) called Rob in hysterics, telling him that ‘homeless people’ were sleeping in the parking lot, and her *customers* (there were *none* at that hour) were complaining.

Long story short: Rob told Beth that we couldn’t stay.

So, we returned to sleeping in 24/7 locations, and on weekends, when Beth’s husband was home, we left town.  Not exactly the summer we had planned, and neither was it one we could afford.

The *only* problems we encountered in a (roughly) 7,000-mile trip, came from the private sector, and not from any authority.

And that was in an anything-but-stealthy car.

In a van, we’d have had *no* problems, period.

We’re buying a brand new van in May - God Willing.

The moral of this saga is: I highly doubt that responsible, respectable van dwellers have anything to worry about any time soon.

Love and All Good Things,

Jesse.:heart:

 

[Brian_and_Jesse]

Just a quick P.S.

We wouldn’t park our white cargo van (overnight) where we parked the car. We’d park it either off the beaten track, or where cargo vans abound.

Jess. :heart:

 

[highdesertranger]

so much misinformation on this thread.

"Just the idea that it is standard for town councils to own tax-subsidised swimming pools, caravan campsites, tennis courts & golf courses, etc, would have the right-wingers here up in arms with pitchforks screaming about socialism"

what the hell are you talking about many small towns have and maintain swimming pools, campgrounds, tennis courts, and golf courses, not to mention parks. NOBODY is screaming socialism. I can't believe this was even posted.

again with the misinformation,

"Yeah, actually there are large areas of BLM land anymore in the US that are fenced off and with no access. That was very true when I was up in central Oregon around Bend and Redmond. I drove all over the place in the area. Rich developers are putting in resorts, buying BLM land to do so, and limiting access in surrounding areas. Blocking off roads that used to go into the boonies. Must be some palm-greasing going on."

the fences have always been there. there are gates in the fences go on in. the fences are to keep livestock in place. my sister lives about 25 miles outside of Bend in the middle of BLM land. I have spent a lot of time there. there were no palms greased and no BLM land changed hands.

the land that "rich developers" are developing is private property. get a land ownership map and read it. there is private property scattered all through the BLM land around Bend and Redmond. it's a regular checker board and its always been this way since the late 1800's.

I can ride my ATV from my sisters house all the way to the Bend airport. I can also go the other way and ride it all the way to the Redmond airport going that way you do have to jog around some private property but you can do it. the old right of way roads are still there.

do you know what it takes to "sell" BLM land or transfer title? it must be approved by congress. this crying of wolf that the government is selling off all the BLM/Forest Service land is pure propaganda put forth by groups with a certain agenda.

rants over. highdesertranger

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why BLM land is checker board?

 

[QinReno]

HDR, thanks for the additional information. If you've been visiting your sister in the area for years, then you obviously know many more details. If you go 25 miles east of Bend, especially on Hwy 20, then there is BLM land more accessible. I stayed looked in.

1. I drove Cline Falls Hwy from Tumalo to Rte 126, and found nothing accessible. Did not see gates that looked like I could enter. The huge Eagle Crest resort is at the north end of that area, as well as some burbs. You may be right that that was private land beforehand, but I drove down several roads and there was no access off them into BLM land that I could see in.

2. I drove down Barr Road south of 126, and just past the OHV parking area, there was a locked fence blocking the road that goes south for miles. Some 4x4s had made a bypass in the rough, which I wasn't willing to drive over it in my van. Apparently that huge area is all BLM land, but I had no access.

3. I drove up a number side streets in the area west of Terrebonne, and there were gated communities blocking the ends of roads, where their private houses butted up against BLM land.

4. I drove the Butte Hwy from 126 south to the Bend Airport, and the BLM lands were fenced all along the way with only one access point that I could find. And that road was one of the roughest roads I've seen yet. Off of Butte Hwy, I drove the road to Pronghorn private resort and the BLM lands were fenced all along the way, with one access spot.

So my Benchmarks OR Maps shows roads all over through the BLM lands in the area, but very difficult to find ways in there. I do know there is a lot of BLM further out to the east of Bend. I was surprised at how much was blocked off where I looked.

5. In regards greased palms by developers, despite what you say, I'm sure it's 100% totally true. Nearby there is a FS road called Joy Lake Road that runs from Rte 431 down to US395, been there forever, shown on the Forest Service maps. Today, it is blocked off 1/2 down by the the wonderful gated St James Development. See the picture of the gate they put in the middle of the road. I know a 20-something guy who lives in the Galena Forest area above there (39.354573, -119.842234), and he said he had been driving down to Hwy 395 all of his life until they put St James in there recently and blocked the road.

6. Likewise, they put Montreux Country Club to the north of the same area, and they then closed off half a dozen access roads to the north. I went up there one day and talked to people living in Galena Forest, and they were terrified if there is ever a wildfire. Today, they are fenced in on 3 sides by rich developers. 

7. There is another area unfolding right now to the east of the Mt Rose wilderness that is just to the west of town. Private people have bought all the land on the boundary (39.437617, -119.824657), and there isn't even one access point into the wilderness. They have signs to that effect. If you're rich you can buy up and block off county roads, and access to public lands that have been there forever.

 

[John61CT]

Class action lawsuit time.

Even the current Supreme Court blocked that billionaire trying to keep the hoi polloi of "his" CA beach. Yay for silver linings!

 

[QinReno]

I believe CA has had an open access law pertaining to the entire 800-mile coastline for decades. I've always wondered about some places, like Sea Ranch north of Frisco. There are always rich NIMBy aholes looking down from their high castles, and thinking "it's all mine".
- https://www.npr.org/2018/08/08/636721621/new-challenges-to-californians-beach-access

For reference, I have these books, vol 1+2.
- https://www.amazon.com/Hiking-California-Coastal-Trail-Monterey/dp/0939431181

What I wrote about, and HDR objected to, were my experiences this past summer boondocking in the triangle around Bend, Redmond, and Sisters. There is a good spot west of Terrebonne, 44.365629, -121.259349 shown on freecampsites.net, that I stayed at, but I figured I should move to fulfill the "usual" 14-day reqs.

 

[lenny flank]

I'll skip all the silly conspiracy-theory stuff.

Sadly, though, much public land is offlimits to campers. Partly that is because too many people go there and make a mess of everything--for which all of us then pay the penalty. Partly too it is because all those wild areas we love are destroyed utterly when too many people go there, so the only solution are (1) let everyone in and destroy it, or (2) limit the number of people who can get in. That is the sad reality of 21st century life.

Me, I like wild areas and don't want to see them destroyed, and if that means I can't go there whenever I want and stay as long as I want, well, c'est la vie. As a longtime backpacker, this is not a new problem, nor is it a new solution.

 

[highdesertranger]

ok Reno in regards to #4 all that BLM land along 126 is open yes you need to know how to access it there are several ways in and out. you need better maps. my sister property is off of 126 and yes the road to that development is closed to the public. but it is not a right-of-way it was not built until they developed the property. however if you go across BLM land on the right-of-way it cuts right through my sisters property, there is a gate and they must let though drivers pass they cannot lock the gate.

as far as your friend traveling a certain FS road forever and now it's blocked. go to the FS and ask for a key or pass. if it was truly a right-of-way
they can't block access. same with all gated roads go to the agency and ask for the key. legally they can't stop you from using a right-of-way. as far as them closing state/county highways sorry but again this just doesn't happen. the only roads they can close are private roads. this is propaganda. don't let them intimidate you stand up for your rights.

as far as why the land is a checker board the 3 main reasons are in order of the amount of land that was transferred,

1. the government deeded every other section to the railroads as an incentive to lay track. this is really obvious to this day in Northern Nevada along the train tracks that follow the Humboldt River/I-80. get a land use map it's a checker board the whole width of the state. the railroads sold some of this land mainly for agriculture. but the checker board is still there.

2. the homestead act deeded land to homesteaders. in some areas this was 100% of the land but in other less desirable areas you have blocks within the BLM and Forest Service that is private property. this is the most common type of inholding that is being developed. you can be guaranteed that 80% of these inholdings were homesteads. those that weren't were.............

3. deeded mining claims. back in the day in order to develop the west you could file a claim and work it, after a certain numbers of years you could petition the government for a deed, this was called a patent pretty much all the more developed mines got patented the lessor mines no. it also meant that once the mine was patented the owners had to pay taxes on it, same with homesteads.

there are a few other minor ways land got to become private property like town grants but these other were relatively minor.

note, none of these ways to acquire land are active now. the only way now-a-days is with land swaps and these are mainly done by pseudo enviro groups. I know I have witnessed it first hand and have dealt with these groups, you talk about pushing the BS these guys take the cake.

highdesertranger

 

[Smitty716]

What HDR said , info is power don’t be scared to use it , just make sure your right before you go flexing your information muscles

 

[QinReno]

as far as your friend traveling a certain FS road forever and now it's blocked. go to the FS and ask for a key or pass. if it was truly a right-of-way they can't block access. same with all gated roads go to the agency and ask for the key.
.............
note, none of these ways to acquire land are active now.  the only way now-a-days is with land swaps and these are mainly done by pseudo enviro groups. 

Just 2 things. In regards the last statement, the BLM has current programs for selling parcels of land to private people and groups. Cf, "Land Sales". I think some of that 1880s stuff is out of date.
- https://www.blm.gov/programs/lands-and-realty/land-tenure/sales-and-exchanges
- https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/FAQs about Federal Land Sales.pdf

In regards the first statement, it's not that the FS closed a gate and locked it. You will notice in the picture I posted that St James put their private access gate right square in the middle of Joy Lake Rd, ie the old FS road. Also, at the bottom of the road by US 395, there is another unmanned gate that requires some sort of access card  (39.331776, -119.813220). Zoom out on the map, and you can see the St James schmoo, with the 2 gates on each end blocking Joy Lake Rd.
- https://www.google.com/maps/@39.331...4!1sV4AciQWeGrFT9sBVQLFZMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Maybe conspiracy theory to some, but in this world, the rich do whateverthehell they want. There are reasons why 1% of the population owns 50% of the wealth, but we needn't go into that. It's clear to everyone.

 

[highdesertranger]

did you read those BLM web sites you posted? this is taken from your links,

"The BLM does not offer much land for sale because of its congressional mandate"

"The law states that the BLM can select lands for sale if, through land-use planning, they are found to meet one of three criteria: 1) they are scattered, isolated tracts that are difficult or uneconomic to manage; 2) they were acquired for a specific purpose and are no longer needed for that purpose; or 3) disposal of the land will serve important public objectives, such as community expansion and economic development"

you will probably jump on the last sentence and say, see I told you so. but important public objectives mean projects like highway widening, airport expansion, etc. in the case where the BLM land is surrounded by private property within the city, see #1 above then it might get sold to a developer. but I am telling you the BLM selling property is rare and they don't do it in the middle of no where to build condos.

as regards to your gate across the road. according to my land use maps(which are very good) Joy Lake road does not access any FS land except for the first 1/4 mile and that is before the gate. when they built the 580 they realigned the bottom of Joy Lake road. here is the plat for that area. Joy Lake road starts in section 14

https://www.nv.blm.gov/LandRecords/data/status_plats/mtp/north/nv210170n0190e00001.pdf

here's my land use map and you can see Joy Lake road crosses Forest service land for the first 1/4 mile or so in sec 23. if you follow the road it never again enters Forest Service land. so basically it appears your friend was on private property. however I have dealt with this situation before. if it was truly a FS access road you would go to the Forest Service explain that you wanted access here and they would give you a key/pass/card to get access. I have done it before.

in fact on our ranch as they were developing all around us we always had access through gated communities because there was a historic right-of-way. any gated community that balked we sent the county/city on them, never
got denied.

come by my camp at RTR and I can show you how I get this information. I touch on it lightly at the prospecting seminar but I would be happy to go into more detail anytime.

highdesertranger

 

[QinReno]

You are a tough cookie, HDR. You certainly know how to look this stuff up. If I show up at RTR, you'll probably beat me up, LOL. I may be there, but I will give another name. I would be happy to listen to the prospecting seminar.

you will probably jump on the last sentence and say, see I told you so. but important public objectives mean projects like highway widening, airport expansion, etc.

Yeah, very likely. Obviously housing developments are always important to public objectives. Tax bases for counties, shopping at local merchants. Eagle Crest is about 2 miles outside of Redmond. America loves growth. 

Would be interesting to know who actually owned the property prior to the development. There are also a bunch of private houses located in the area just due south of the eastern part of Eagle Crest, looking like they had been in there for decades. Then south of there is a large BLM region with no access that I could find, and I went up every single road looking for a spur road.

I thought I had given this link,
- https://bendtrails.org/trail/cline-butte-xc/
"The gate is now locked at the bottom of Cline at FAA road access. According to the map posted below (and signs) it’s not available for use by the public. Portions of the start of the XC route also go in and out of private land – so ride at your own discretion. Cota is working on solutions".

Would also be interesting to know the deeding on Joy Lake Road, who owned it before St James. Obviously, a big development of expensive houses means a lot more to the county base then bare undeveloped land. They did realign the road very slightly at the bottom to take it over to the underpass under 580.

 

[highdesertranger]

no don't get me wrong I am not going to beat you up, LOL. I am just trying to give you some education, I deal with this stuff all the time. most of the development goes on old homesteads. family members don't want the ranching life and sell out to developers or land speculators.

also back in the day, even 20-30 years ago no trespassing signs were not so common. people were not so uptight about others crossing their property. my how times have changed.

your buddy, highdesertranger