The Future of Van Life

[lenny flank]

it would be far better to limit the number of people period.

don't ask me how I have know idea.

Mother Nature will inevitably do it for us. Though we probably won't like the results very much.

 

[Dan 1]

Yep. Many of them are teens who think they are being rebelliousy and edgy. Others have stars in their eyes and envision a free and easy life of chocolate fountains and unicorns.

The blunt reality is that vanlife is mostly boring. We have to do the same dull day-to-day drudgery of everyday life that everyone else has to do--we have to make a living, we have to do laundry, we have to cook dinner, we have to wash up, but we have to do all that in a space that is smaller than the average prison cell. "Glamorous" is not the word I would use for it.

But when you look up and out from your daily chores and behold the beauty and new things of interest, that are all around you, because you frequently change your Living Environment, surely One might forget that they are "bored"?

 

[Dan 1]

What I foresee in the future is a society in which "jobs" barely exist, and we will all be forced to decouple "consumption" from "income". In a society where virtually nobody still has a job (having been replaced by automation, robotics, and AI), it will no longer be viable to have people use job income to buy their necessaries of life. So as a society we then have a choice--we let people live in the woods and fend for themselves as best they can, or we provide people with their necessaries of life whether they have a job income to pay for it or not. It would, in either case, completely remake the entire political, economic and social structure of our society.

One of those options would be socially sustainable. The other would not.

An "Earned Guaranteed Income" might be helpful in this circumstance. New Economic design and construction might provide some solution too. I'm thinking "Alternate Economies" as augmentation to the "failing" Capitalist Establishment. One thing I am "seeing" here is that corporate capitalism is failing the Middle and Worker Class, as to the provision of jobs in which to earn a Living. We The People, whether Nomadic or not, have to take responsibility for Our selves and build mutually supportive social systems...including easily transportable and transferable mediums of exchange. What the corporate government does, We can do just as well...or Better.


One of "Our Responsibilities" is to achieve the kinds of Education that makes Us more valuable to Each Other, as well as the corporate structure.

 

[Dan 1]

I think it depends on a lot of unknowable things. Mostly though, I suspect that if things go as lenny is predicting (and there are good reasons to think it might!), we may have a lot of people vandwelling more out of necessity than anything else. Even looking at current trends, I know that I bought a house because I was told that it was a good investment and a hedge against inflation in terms of housing costs. It has been those things for me. However, s&bs may be less of a good investment these days and sure aren't the same hedge against inflation that living in a van would be. There are also trends with younger people choosing experiences over material things and if that continues, I expect we will see more vandweller nomads.

Like others here, I don't think the true nomads will have too much trouble. They simply are not in one place long enough. What might change is the availability of free boondocking. There will always be campgrounds one can pay for. From what I understand this is more or less the situation in many places in the East of our country. Even in places like the town where I live, where sleeping in a vehicles is prohibited, the enforcement is lax. Anyone who moves on quickly will be ok. I recently got exited because some van dwellers parked in front of my house. I watched them get ready for bed and then they moved on, presumably to park someplace else. I suspect that they were not hassled. I wonder though how that might be different if there were hundreds of people doing this every night in my town? I imagine that folks would not like it and there would be a call to increase enforcement. So for nomads, I guess it depends on the trends. Usually though, things like this go in cycles. From a political point of view, what I would do to help would be to help young people and poor people find the housing they would prefer and just count on a lot of people finding S&Bs to be their preference.

The people who may have the most trouble are people who need to stay in one place for various reasons. I brought this up with my city council person since the ordinance is that there is no sleeping in vehicles and I want to sleep in mine in the backyard. His answer was to just do it but to remember that if anyone reports me I could be asked to stop. The point is to do it in a way that doesnt bother the neighbors and I am cool with that. Again, a lot depends on trends. What can be acceptable to a community when one or two people are doing it can quickly become unacceptable when many are. This is especially so when the people who are doing it are too poor to do it in a way that keeps them out of sight.

At any rate, it is the kind of thing which can be killed by popularity although as was also mentioned, if enough people are doing it, they can organize and work to make it more acceptable and mainstream

Well considered and shared, "slynne". But I have to admit here, that I am a bit confused by the need for Wheeled People to stay in communities. Maybe these are the Ones who are "Wheeled" by circumstances and not by choice and who intend to regain roots in sticks and bricks, as soon as they can.

 

[Elbear1]

We cant get people to understand that rain and sun and earth belong to none and available to all. Artificially currency distribution aint gonna fly. Especially when its supposed to represent human effort. What would actually makesl sense upon full automation is the elimination of currency altogether.

As even vandwelling shows people arent happy to just live. To have needs met. We have to have more. "Thats survival not living"

 

[Dan 1]

"

But advocating to help the more-truly homeless, fighting for dignified housing, just as with food & education,

as a fundamental right of citizenship,

will help address the underlying causes of the problem and prevent it escalating.

Bravo, well said, John.  I notice too much "us vs them" regarding the truly homeless.  They are citizens in need of aid, not vermin to be despised.

I met a man stranded on an onramp who had been sitting there in his broken down van, which was obviously fitted out for off-grid living, for two weeks.

Two.  Weeks. 

He was desperate, he needed a tow to a mechanic, he had run out of food for himself and his dogs and had no water.  I gave him a bag full of biscuit sandwiches I had just bought, along with two gallons of water and $20.  He burst into tears.  I wish I could have given him a tow as well, but I'm not set up for that.  This was a guy who had been living OK until the breakdown put him over the edge.  In hindsight, I wish I had simply called a tow truck and paid for it.  I still wonder how he made out.  LE was actually treating him well, but not giving him what he needed, which was a tow and whatever repairs he needed.


The Dire Wolfess
[/quote]

"[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]They are citizens in need of aid, not vermin to be despised.[/font]" They are both. We should try to help those that can be helped. But should not waste time and valuable resources on those that cannot and will not be "helped". I suspect that More can be helped, than those who cannot. I would have helped the Individual you helped too. The "over the edge breakdowns" are a terrible thing."

 

[CityWoman]

Dan1, it's obvious that you like to respond to posts in older threads, and that's fine - BUT can you at least make an effort to trim your quotes?!  Just include the most relevant part and then select and cut out the rest of the quote.  Seriously, in every thread you revive, it's getting ridiculous.  There's no need to include the entire quote in your posts!  It makes reading through the thread a chore.

 

[Dan 1]

We cant get people to understand that rain and sun and earth belong to none and available to all. Artificially currency distribution aint gonna fly. Especially when its supposed to represent human effort. What would actually makesl sense upon full automation is the elimination of currency altogether.

As even vandwelling shows people arent happy to just live. To have needs met. We have to have more. "Thats survival not living"

I believe "artificial currency" development and distribution could be helpful. (Though illegal from the viewpoint of corporate new world order capitalism) It could fulfill economic need along with Fair Trade of Goods and Services and Conditional and Unconditional Gifting.

 

[Dan 1]

Good Morning, "CityWoman". I apologize for any stress I cause You and Others with my communication. I will try to comply with Your's and Other's needs in this matter. I think I understand what You mean by "trim my quotes", by "selecting and cutting out the rest of the quote".

I will do this here in this response. Hows that? Better?

Well. That didn't work as I thought it would. I cut out the least pertinent parts of your response and lost the whole thing. Hmmm. I will work on it.

 

[Dan 1]

Thank you for this explanation, "B and C".

 

[Qxxx]

mean by "trim my quotes", by "selecting and cutting out the rest of the quote".

The moderators usually step in and say this after a while.

 

[highdesertranger]

I added a new "How to" in the How to section. just to make it clear it wasn't only intended for Dan. we have had several complaints lately. highdesertranger

 

[winterwanderer]

IMO, the rapidly ballooning numbers of people living in vehicles is definite cause for concern. Here in Buena Vista CO, one of the few places where public lands camping near town is free and generally unregulated, we have unbelievable numbers of people living up in the hills during the summer season. Fortunately, they are very neat and well-behaved, but even so, there are many problems caused by sheer numbers.

As far as social stigma, our society has never approved of tramps of any sort who take more from a community than they contribute. Here in BV, the large number of raft guides and other seasonal workers who camp out on public lands is a major impetus for law enforcement to "look the other way".

The issue of overcrowded public lands has definitely pushed me to consider alternatives to public lands camping. The current system of free camping does not appear to be tenable. Perhaps they should quit maintaining all those thousands of miles of dirt roads. Save funds and thin out the herds of campers at the same time...

 

[Dan 1]

IMO, the rapidly ballooning numbers of people living in vehicles is definite cause for concern. 

The issue of overcrowded public lands has definitely pushed me to consider alternatives to public lands camping. The current system of free camping does not appear to be tenable. 

"Too Many" is a real concern. The settlements and production centers of "Our Society" has been feeling and dealing with this for a long time. Nomadism (if well done) is a solution that reduces the population pressures on the cities and distributes this pressure out over the land. These traveling groups (or Individuals) should endeavor to live as lightly on the land as they can and move on when the land begins to show wear and tear. Of course, the Ideal is to leave the land in better condition than before the arrival and stay...even if it takes volunteers to do restorative work on it (for it) From what I have seen and heard the government agencies that are involved in the custodianship of the land, are doing a pretty good job of making it off limits, in order to give it time to "heal". But this process gets harder as the Human numbers that enter Nomadism increases and the land takes quite a while to "heal". There will probably be a time when the maximum number of Nomadic Humans, in relation to the "carrying capacity" of the available land, is reached and the ensuing stresses will cause drastic solutions. Maybe some catastrophic events will intervene with this issue.

 

[crofter]

In the part of Oregon I was in this summer season, Forest Service was actively closing dispersed camping areas and covering the ground with stumps and logs, placing large rows of boulders across roads, and putting up no camping signs. Increased staff then did more expensive ticketing of those who camped there anyway in places historically camped in the dispersed mode. There have been some incredibly messy dispersed campers in the area.  A trails crew member tells a story of camping near another party in one of these posted no camping areas, and when they were all told to leave, the other party threw garbage out of their vehicle in a giant purge.  The trail crew member spent a while and multiple garbage bags cleaning up the mess before leaving. Many people have stories of cleaning up messes made by others in the dispersed areas. Were the people throwing all the garbage out of their car mentally ill or poor? probably. Forest Service cites the reason for the closures as water quality concerns and does not refer to the garbage messes so many of us have cleaned up. The water quality concern probably comes from buried waste, runoff from soil erosion, or possibly grey water from soapy water that was not biodegradable or dumped too close to the river. From what I have seen, there is a lot less free dispersed forest camping now than there was even 2 years ago when I was last up there for the season. In this small corner of the world, loss of access for dispersed "free" camping is definitely a "thing."     ~crofter

 

[lenny flank]

There have been some incredibly messy dispersed campers in the area. 

As always, it is the small number of shitheads who cause all the problems. But we end up paying the price anyway.

(sigh)

 

[Qxxx]

In the part of Oregon I was in this summer season, Forest Service was actively closing dispersed camping areas and covering the ground with stumps and logs, placing large rows of boulders across roads, and putting up no camping signs.

You didn't say where you were at, but I am guessing it was near some city, or within a few hours drive of such. Rather than miles from nowheres. From the Willamette Valley, 1-3 hours drive gets you to all the primo spots. Near in places are always hard hit by the idiots. This past year, they've been closing down places near Flagstaff and Cottonwood north of Phoenix for these reasons.

 

[owl]

As HDR said there is an incredible amount of disinformation in this thread. In almost 50 years of full and part time nomading there are some things that have never changed and ( my opinion ) never will. I will use the term nomad because it covers much more than vandweller. The name of this forum says it all, there are nomads here in all sorts of vehicles and a huge number in s&b, some have never been on the road. That does not diminish the knowledge they share regularly. Like every lifestyle ours undergoes changes and adjustments. In and around cities you may notice some increased restriction on private land as well as public. This isn't due to class conflict, it is because of numbers. When you are the only vehicle camping in a parking lot there's no problem. When you are one of a hundred I don't have to tell you how that changes things. The idea that sleeping in any kind of vehicle can be legislated out of existence isn't realistic. That the administrators of an entity decide that that is the answer for their problem isn't unusual. Time to find another stomping ground. Very few people find this lifestyle to their liking for long, for every one that has survived for two years hundreds quit. Don't believe everything you see on youtube and be particularly careful taking their advice. Social exposure of campsites ruins them, I don't share sites. I encourage folks to find sites the way I do, explore. I also no longer encourage folks to join the lifestyle, I make an effort not to discourage them as well. What works for some will never work for all. People who know me know how I live and where. I never share my lifestyle with strangers, I feel like that is only opening the door to issues. Remember knowledge is power.

 

[highdesertranger]

bravo Owl I couldn't agree more. highdesertranger

 

[1shemp]

I agree with HDR about the effects of over population.However,there are people who oppose abortion and even contraception .I have given thought in the past to selling an acre of land for someone to live and camp on.But,as Forrest Gump said;"You never know what you are going to get".Unfortunately many people in the van dwelling life are just a breakdown away from going from a nomad to a homeless squatter.All the talk about freedom and how great it is to travel sounds good,but I think most people living the life are doing so because they can't afford to live differently.As more and more folks will be living this way when the economy slows and jobs are hard to come by, the overcrowding will only get worse.I don't know what the answer is,or even if there is an answer.