So why is Van Dwelling illegal?

[GypsyJoe]

So I'm doing my research.. looking at ways to buy my first van. And I keep running into the fact that you can be arrested for living in your vehicle.

Why in the world is this the case? Is it crime to be poor or to be frugal? For example I'm sure I've paid close to 100k in rent in my lifetime. I've been on my own since the age of 17 (moved out in high school). I paid my own way and worked the whole time.

Almost thirty years later and I got nothing to show. So I'm contemplating the van life. And it's a downer for me to discover that I would be breaking the law by simplifying my life.

I don't want an expensive mortgage or to waste more money by giving it to a landlord (making somebody else rich)! As long as I drive a neat & clean van or rv, keep it repaired, pay my bills and taxes, who cares that I live in it!

Sorry but finding out that living your RV means you are an outlaw really got me mad. I know it's not news to you regulars. But does any one have a clue why many cities and states are like this?

 

[Zil]

Some van dwellers bring grief to all by their poor behavior. However being a van dweller in it self is not illegal. Sleeping in a vehicle is illegal in many cities. I have found not as much trouble as some others post here.

 

[GypsyJoe]

Some van dwellers bring grief to all by their poor behavior. However being a van dweller in it self is not illegal. Sleeping in a vehicle is illegal in many cities. I have found not as much trouble as some others post here.

Thanks Zil. I plan on beingC very low profile. Keeping my van neat and clean. And having paid for insurance, license, and registration. I might also have a friend who'd be willing to let me rent his driveway. His family needs extra money and I'd stay out of there way. If that works out my anxiety will go down.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Joe....There are many places you can live in a van without being bothered.
We're just careful where we park and have yet to have any issues, save for one time when a church asked us to move when we parked (the RV) on a patch of dirt near them on a weeknight when nothing was going on.
That was my own fault for not asking first.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Just stay out of urban areas and you will not find too many ordinances against sleeping in your car. Those laws only apply to within the city limits of said city, so go elsewhere. With that said, if you never *admit* to "living in the vehicle" it is pretty hard for the po-po to arrest you.

Firstly, you should never talk to a police officer anyway. And NEVER allow them to search your vehicle or even look inside it. Always lock your doors to prevent them from an unwarranted search. If they can not search/view your van, they can not get "probable cause" that you are living in it. Without that (or your admitting to it) they can not arrest you (not legally of course).

Of course, the easiest way to avoid it is to camp somewhere in which you are not violating any such law. We van-dwellers live on the *fringes* of society, so don't park your van right smack in the middle of that society... park on the fringe.

 

[Iggy]

Here on the west coast, it seems that every town over a few thousand has a law about no overnight camping. The reason is to give the police teeth if someone calls in a complaint about people living in their vehicle. So, yeah, I'm breaking the law by existing. So a person needs to accept that fact and deal with it. Have you ever went over the speed limit? Ever got creative with your tax return? Ever put a pop can into a trashcan? Ever removed the tag from your mattress? We break laws all the time. The important thing is to not be hurting anyone else by your actions. My conscience is clear when I stealth park. I follow the spirit of the law not the letter of the law. Which is Do no harm to others.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Well said

 

[mconlonx]

I ride a bus as part of a commute and one of the perks is a free newspaper. I frequently check out the police logs.

One town, very wealthy, nobody minds their own business, I see that the cops frequently sweep the beaches for anyone still parked there at 4am or so and ask them to move along. Some indicate that the dwellers were snitched out by residents, others don't which to me signifies that the cops do sweeps on their own.

The next town over, bigger, there were two reports over the past couple of days: resident complained about people overnighting in an RV, police told RVers that per city ordinance they need to move every 72 hrs, told resident that it is a legal parking spot and it is legal to overnight in an RV. Same town different location, parking spot legality unknown, but a person sleeping in their minivan was asked to move along.

No arrests.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Towns and city have finite limits. It is easy enough to park outside those limits too. Our own personal inconvenience is not a valid reason to violate a law. "Harm" can easily be defined, by those that live in those towns, as decreased property values due to large numbers of "homeless" (let's face it, that is what they see us as). So even though it is easy for us to say we are "doing no harm", we may in fact be just in a second-hand fashion.

Now, even with all my preaching, I break the law regularly and I do agree with your basic concept Iggy. So, don't take my devil's-advocate-tone as an argument. I do actually agree with you, but when it comes to the law... we are being unlawful and we will need to accept the consequences if/when they come.

Good ol' society, pushing their beliefs onto all. As John Muir once said, "Civilization drives its victims in flocks, repressing the growth of individuality".
I am in an individual!

 

[Iggy]

Yup, I can see both sides of the argument. Hopefully I'll never be one of those that give Vandwellers a bad rep. Doing my best to be a good neighbor and respectful as to where I park. Last night I found a perfect spot twice but there were already Vandwellers there. So rather than crowding them and drawing attention by parking in a cluster, I looked elsewhere.

 

[GypsyJoe]

Wow this is all great advice. Thanks guys.. as usual I was worried people would think I'm nuts!

I get the basic idea here.. I like the idea of parking out of the city limits. The city I'm going to need to be around for awhile has lots of rural areas around. I didn't know that the ordinances didn't apply outside city limits!

That's really useful information.

I really appreciate this forum.. you guys are teaching me a ton. I know it's not a smooth road.. and I'll run into some issues. But hell, look where towing the line my whole life got me.. NOWHERE! .

Can't be worse than that right?

 

[Reducto]

It's illegal because house owners have pushed for laws against it. Enough of them fear all the evil they imagine (and occasionally see) us doing.

I've heard very few instances of anyone actually getting a ticket much less anything worse. In the vast majority of cases if there is a problem you'll just get a knock on the window and be told to go away or you'll get a notice telling you to move within 3 days. In a way rural can be worse because you really stick out. In a more crowded area you're just another vehicle that might belong to a resident.

The only areas I rule out completely are in very high end neighborhoods (where they are more likely to call the cops) and anywhere that will raise a big red flag such as next to playgrounds, banks, government buildings, things like that. Otherwise it's all about convenience, fitting in, and not being in anyone's way. Try out a bunch of different spots and find a dozen or so to rotate between. You'll be fine!

 

[flying kurbmaster]

given enough time everything will be illegal unless they can figure out a way to tax it.:huh:

 

[highdesertranger]

you are so right kurbmaster. highdesertranger

 

[akrvbob]

Everything said is all true and wise. But we've missed the one reason why it is illegal:

Since humans first started living in cities they noticed one very important thing:
We're all full of shit!!

So when we started to poop wherever we wanted we learned the second very important thing:
Shitting anywhere you want makes us sick!

We had to reach a common agreement how to deal with sewage and every since those first cities the number one job of every city government is to control sewage. It's not exciting, but if you don't do it right people start to get sick and die.

Now with millions of us living in tiny spaces it's more important than ever: SEWAGE MUST BE CONTROLLED!

So nearly every town makes it the law that every residence must be hooked up to the city sewer system or an approved septic system. That may make you mad as a rugged individualist but it is absolutely necessary and justified. My poop doesn't just affect me, it affects every person around me and I don't have the right to do whatever I want to do with it.

Vans don't have any way to legally dispose of sewage, so by definition they must be illegal as a residence.

So I accept the fact that I'm breaking the law and I am just very careful to follow my most basic moral tennent: Do all the good I can, and harm no one unless totally necessary.

I poop in a bucket and wrap it up and put it in the trash just like I did when I had children and changed their diapers away from the house and just like I do for my dog in the city. It was the moral and right thing to do for my children and my dog, and is for me as well.

Or you can use a porta potti and put it down any toilet into the city sewage system.

That's why vandwelling is illegal.
Bob

 

[SoulRaven]

In many parts of the country being on the street at 3am can kill you.

http://wnep.com/2014/05/23/16-year-old-charged-in-scranton-cab-drivers-murder/

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Bob: That's right. Someone in here posted a link to a story about a woman who was trying to live in her house with no utilities and was being evicted. These laws were in place long ago and its not just about people in vans. When you build a new house you have to get a certificate of occupancy. It means that the house has passed all the inspections through each phase of its construction and is now safe to use.
The point you make about sewage is indeed at the heart of a lot of the requirements of designing and building a house. The bath room cant be connected or part of the kitchen etc. Cleanliness. When the drainage system is plumbed in, all the roughed in fittings/pipes have to be sealed with temporary plugs and the system is pressurized and monitored for leakage. They want to be sure there will be no sewage leaks.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

brilliant Bob, a few coin operated public toilets strategically scattered around, problem solved.

 

[GypsyJoe]

Makes sense Bob. Also human beings are chaotic. While most of us are probably the conscientious sort, there are people who will dump poop in the streets or public waterways. I saw that when I lived a large city for many years. I think the point is like you pointed out.. be responsible. Don't be one of those people that leaves a mess for others to clean up.

I'm pretty sure I can handle being a responsible RV'r or Van Dweller. This forum has been full of great advice from folks.

 

[SoulRaven]

Forget worrying about whether or not it's legal. If you're not trying to hide, and you're polite to the police if they contact you, the worst that is going to happen is they'll tell you where you can park.

DO NOT take the advice of not answering them knocking on your van, that will get your van towed and you arrested.

I have found the best stealth tactics to be no stealth tactics, other than window vans always attract less unwanted attention. Other than that, just be a good neighbor, and leave no trace, if the neighbors don't complain, odds are the cops will leave you alone even if they know you're living in your van, and they DO know.

Those laws are there to give them the power to do something when necessary. If you're not a problem, I doubt they are going to go out of their way to cause you any problems. The only time I ever had big problems was for the short term that I had a cargo van.

I spend about 6 months a year on the road, and spend about half that time in cities, and half in the forests. When in the city, it is not unusual for me to stay parked for over a week without moving, and use my scooter to run around with. For the most part nobody seems to care, only once did a neighbor tell me that it wasn't okay for me to park there, so I just moved a few blocks away.