Flat Tax

[flying kurbmaster]

The flat tax is the only fair way.

We could drastically reduce the amount of money needed by Government by paying off the national debt. It would hurt our pockets for a little bit, but in the long run it would benifit us. The interest on our loans is dragging us down. It is like paying credit card interest on a balance that keeps growing.



Since about 1950 we have been borrowing money to fight wars that benefit big money interests. Can we really expect that our grand children will be able to pay it all back?

I am not sure flat tax is the only fair way, if a person makes a million dollars a year I think he can afford 390,000 in taxes he still keeps 610,000 not a bad haul, while a person that makes 14000 should only pay 5% 700.00  he retains 13,700. 610,000 compared to 13,700 not really fair but better then say the flat tax system of 20% then it would be 800,000 compared to  11,200. In the end a flat tax system will leave less for the government I think. Because  you are a lawyer that came from a place of privilege does not mean you work any harder then the guy who picks vegetables for your salad. We place value on stuff that is of no purpose. The guys who should be making the most money are those that keep us fed, clothed, and sheltered. Not going to happen.
As far as debt goes the US along with every other country should simply default on their loans and print their own money, there is a great documentary about this called The Truth About OZ, worth a watch if you got a free hour and a half. google it you can watch it on line.

 

[B and C]

I am not sure flat tax is the only fair way, if a person makes a million dollars a year I think he can afford 390,000 in taxes he still keeps 610,000 not a bad haul, while a person that makes 14000 should only pay 5% 700.00  he retains 13,700. 610,000 compared to 13,700 not really fair but better then say the flat tax system of 20% then it would be 800,000 compared to  11,200. In the end a flat tax system will leave less for the government I think. Because  you are a lawyer that came from a place of privilege does not mean you work any harder then the guy who picks  vegetables for your salad. We place value on stuff that is of no purpose. The guys who should be making the most money are those that keep us fed, clothed, and sheltered. Not going to happen.
As far as debt goes the US along with every other country should simply default on their loans and print their own money, there is a great documentary about this called The Truth About OZ, worth a watch if you got a free hour and a half. google it you can watch it on line.

As far as a flat tax goes, the first ~20K would be tax free, but everyone would have skin in the game when it came time to raise taxes.  Those at the bottom would not be voting themselves a raise.

 

[rgs80074]

Hello everyone,


everyone is talking about the flat tax I looked at it a while ago and it just don't work the way you want it too. Or at least that's the conclusion I came to agree with. I also read a lot at www.fairtax.org the fair tax seems much more likely to be able to cover all the needs and succeed. you can get lots of information on it at the webpage mentioned and I could be wrong but I think its actually on a vote in congress or the house or something for the first time, every year that goes by it gets more and more support even from politicians.

just my two cents.

 

[ramblingvanman]

I disagree with income tax in and of itself. It punishes work and productivity. It makes much more sense to punish consumption via a national sales tax. This also has the effect of taxing the underground economy. Prostitutes and drug dealers, for example, don't pay income taxes, but they do buy stuff. Same with the very rich.

 

[mockturtle]

I would agree to a consumption tax, too, as long as food and medicine were exempt. But I think that getting rid of the IRS, an expensive bureaucracy, would be the logical first step, regardless of how it's done.

 

[ZoNiE]

I agree, a 10% flat tax is fair. Make a cutoff for "below living income" like $30K for an individual, $50K for a family, for example, and that takes care of the working poor and struggling lower middle class (income wise). They are Exempt.

No deductions at all. After all the deduction bullshit, I pay about 9-11%, give or take.

Corporations? No deductions. Very simple. Tax them 15% on gains. Money in minus money out. Whatever is left, tax it. If there is a loss, no tax. Why 15% instead of 10%? Simple, they make a profit. Much of their costs go to payroll, which gets taxed already at 10%. The rest should go to build infrastructure which allows them to profit in the first place because this is not a third world shithole.

No property tax. Raise sales tax instead. Users pay. The more you buy, the more you pay. It works for fuel. The more you drive, the more you help pay for the roads. This gets the 13 Million illegal aliens to pay up too, at least the ones who are not already paying into it using fake SSN's.

 

[DannyB1954]

I don't think sales tax for the wealthy would amount to as much as a percentage of their income. You would have to put sales tax on housing and investments. You would also have to have sales tax on shipping and import taxes. They could buy their toys over seas and ship them in.

 

[mockturtle]

Good point, Danny. Maybe a combination of both a low flat-rate income tax [with a minimum income exemption] and a VAT type consumption tax, exempting food and medicine. Either way, the IRS could [and should] be dismantled.

 

[Canine]

Hello everyone,


everyone is talking about the flat tax I looked at it a while ago and it just don't work the way you want it too.  Or at least that's the conclusion I came to agree with.  I also read a lot at www.fairtax.org  the fair tax seems much more likely to be able to cover all the needs and succeed.  you can get lots of information on it at the webpage mentioned and I could be wrong but I think its actually on a vote in congress or the house or something for the first time, every year that goes by it gets more and more support even from politicians.

just my two cents.

I can't believe that you didn't get any "thanks" for this post. Even the video explaining the fair tax has only 1800 views. A very excellent post nonetheless. To give the constituent more control over how much tax he/she wants to contribute is an awesome idea. And no more IRS. That would save billions and billions of dollars. Some of the IRS agents are being armed to do their job now. They have enormous power and now have guns? I would love the fair tax. Would also love to stick it to the clandestine businesses; just because they are criminals, doesn't mean they should avoid paying taxes like the rest of us.

 

[Spirituallifetime]

Be very carful, politician's like to start new taxes but don't remove the old taxes. They may put in a sales tax and not remove the income tax, then we would be paying both taxes! We already pay a lot of different taxes most of them hidden from the public, but we pay for them every time buy goods and services. They are called excise taxes, there is a long list of them in the Internal Revenue Code.
As long as the Fed's collect a tax of any kind the IRS will be there to collect it, so any plan will not get rid of the IRS!

 

[Spirituallifetime]

I can't believe that you didn't get any "thanks" for this post. Even the video explaining the fair tax has only 1800 views. A very excellent post nonetheless. To give the constituent more control over how much tax he/she wants to contribute is an awesome idea. And no more IRS. That would save billions and billions of dollars. Some of the IRS agents are being armed to do their job now. They have enormous power and now have guns? I would love the fair tax. Would also love to stick it to the clandestine businesses; just because they are criminals, doesn't mean they should avoid paying taxes like the rest of us.

They have been armed when the ATF (alcohol tobacco firearms) was created to colect alcohol, tobacco and firearams taxes. The ATF is a part of the IRS and was not created to enforce gun laws! But now is their only duty it seems.

 

[gcal]

Hope we can talk economics without crossing over into politics.Just wondering how many folks besides myself would be in favor of a flat federal income tax rate.Say 20%.If you make $10 you pay $2.If you make $10 million,you pay$2 million.

I have never seen a budget based on a flat tax that works. First, you are probably paying less than that, now, if you dont include payroll tax. If payroll tax would be included, it won't pay the bills. Americans are famous for wanting government services, but not wanting to pay for them. If you look at what has been happening to real income in the past couple decades, you might just see another problem. I've seen a lot of pie in the sky plans, just never one where the numbers work out.

 

[Canine]

That is a good point. Taxes don't go away. The fairgrounds here built a fence and said that once the fence was paid for, they would stop charging entrance fees. The fees are now higher than ever. Toll bridges are an even better example. Some have said that once the bridge was paid for, the toll would be eliminated or decreased to an appropriate amount to cover maintenance costs. I'm not aware of bridges that have done this.

Are there examples of taxes being eliminated or changed rather than adding new tax onto the old?

 

[Canine]

No pie in the sky,just a fair way to pay our country's bills.Base the rate on last fiscal years expenditures.Adjust the rate every year to reflect expenses.I think it would drastically reduce our mis-guided knee jerk tendencies to bully the world with our military.When a politician voted for a war,he would be voting to increase everyones taxes immediately.I can't see how millionaires wouldn't love a sales tax.It would be the greatest Christmas gift ever for them.Folks who are having a hard time affording clothes and food would have to scratch up an extra 10?15? 20? percent premium on things they desperately need.People would cut back their buying.Factories would close.Unemployment would skyrocket.

 

[Canine]

What's wrong with the IRS?If not for the IRS,who would try to ensure that people don't cheat on their taxes?Who would keep records of how much you pay into Social Security and Medicare?Somebody somewhere has to keep the books.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Income tax withholding was introduced during World War 2 and touted as making taxes "convenient" for the American people.  It actually put a disconnect between what the government was doing and how much it was really costing each one of us. 

You want to bring the government under control?  Do away with withholding.  Require every taxpayer to pay their annual taxes in October, just before the elections.  Watch how much that changes the way government operates.

Regards
John

 

[Spirituallifetime]

Most people wouldn't have the money to pay their income taxes if it wasn't withheld from their pay checks. And the politicians don't want people to see how much they actually pay. I've known a lot of people who don't look at the deductions they just look at the amount on the check. We should go back to pre 1913 when there was no income tax. The US was not involved in many wars!

 

[gcal]

Most people wouldn't have the money to pay their income taxes if it wasn't withheld from their pay checks. And the politicians don't want people to see how much they actually pay. I've known a lot of people who don't look at the deductions they just look at the amount on the check. We should go back to pre 1913 when there was no income tax. The US was not involved in many wars!

I don't know anyone at all who is not aware of what comes out of their paychecks. Noone at all. Who isn't paying attention to this? Surely, they would come to some awareness when they filled their tax forms out and looked at their W2 forms! What kind of fog do these people live in?

 

[compassrose]

I prefer a consumer tax WITHIN LIMITS! and there's the key. I figure if I have to live within a budget, then the government should learn to live within a budget too. Personally I don't think the government should ask so much. God only asks for 10%. So why does the government think they should get more than God. Yes, that means a lots of government spending would be curtailed. And many would lose their fav perks and handouts. I also think that the oft touted sacred "Social Security" (which isn't) should be changed. Better to invest the SS money into Gov bonds. Or let people pay into a special savings account or mutual fund. You would get a better return on the money and the money would not be at risk of being pilfered like it is now. The current Social Security system is a Ponzi scheme at best. What I think really doesn't matter because nothing will ever come of it. Elected politicians (all elected positions - from city up to federal) will never be limited to 2 terms. Those cushy pensions for elected officials will never be done away with. Each state will not be responsible for their own elected officials (pay, housing, offices). And the DC politicians will not be able to get their work done in a timely fashion (they should only be in DC for a week per month MAX). I will never see it be a firing offense for a politician to vote "present" on a bill or law. I will never see the general public realize that it is NEVER "Government money". The government has no money, they only have "taxpayer's money". I will never see any of that.

 

[gcal]

I prefer a consumer tax WITHIN LIMITS! and there's the key. I figure if I have to live within a budget, then the government should learn to live within a budget too. Personally I don't think the government should ask so much. God only asks for 10%. So why does the government think they should get more than God. Yes, that means a lots of government spending would be curtailed. And many would lose their fav perks and handouts. I also think that the oft touted sacred "Social Security" (which isn't) should be changed. Better to invest the SS money into Gov bonds. Or let people pay into a special savings account or mutual fund. You would get a better return on the money and the money would not be at risk of being pilfered like it is now. The current Social Security system is a Ponzi scheme at best. What I think really doesn't matter because nothing will ever come of it. Elected politicians (all elected positions - from city up to federal) will never be limited to 2 terms. Those cushy pensions for elected officials will never be done away with. Each state will not be responsible for their own elected officials (pay, housing, offices). And the DC politicians will not be able to get their work done in a timely fashion (they should only be in DC for a week per month MAX). I will never see it be a firing offense for a politician to vote "present" on a bill or law. I will never see the general public realize that it is NEVER "Government money". The government has no money, they only have "taxpayer's money". I will never see any of that.

A consumer tax means that you will be paying a much higher rate than rich people do. Most people spend most of what they earn on living expenses.  The wealthy do no you can invest in s special account, 401k's or IRA's. As far as getting rid of social security, just think about the last market crash and imagine what would happen to all those old people if they lost their investments. There would be a lot of them moving into their kids' house.