The earth is flat!!!

[paulrh]

Recently a friend mentioned her interest in this topic, and her belief that there must be something to it since "so many people really believe it and they have good arguments". My immediate response was "what good arguments could they possibly have?!" She didn't have the arguments handy, so several hours of "wasted" time on the internet ensued. Lots of videos and articles there if you are so inclined!

I discovered that she was right about the first part (many seem to really believe it) but I couldn't find any evidence of the second. I always thought it was a joke, not something that anyone was serious about. Then I ran across this survey conducted in 2021, and ~18% of the Millenials (20-40 year olds) agreed with the statement "the earth is flat, not round". I was blown away... https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/conspiracy-vs-science-a-survey-of-us-public-beliefs

The FEs don't concern themselves with having a working model of the flat earth... but the most popular theory seems to be a flat disk with the north pole in the center, a wall of ice around the periphery (Antarctica), and a dome over it. Most of the discussions are around what they believe are evidence that the earth couldn't be round. I went through all I could find and they were easily debunked.... but I realized that to someone who wasn't scientifically trained and practiced the evidence would seem plausible. I mean, when it comes to things that we can't figure out or have personal experience of, most of us just take the consensus view on faith. For many things in life all of us do exactly that... or maybe more commonly in recent years we are just confused and don't know what the truth is.

Still... in order to believe the earth is flat you'd have to believe that all the millions of scientists and regular people since Galileo, who work in any fields related to astronomy, celestial mechanics, satellites, GPS, navigation, etc... are in on the hoax. Who could possibly orchestrate and fund such a effort, and what would be the point?

I pondered what would be the easiest ways to convince a FE believer that the world is round. There are a lot of them, but... I realized that a sincere desire to believe coupled with a ready excuse like "it's fake", or "it's caused by distortion" would make this a lot harder. Maybe no evidence would suffice? I hope we don't revert to the dark ages....

It's exactly the same issue with those that believe in a god. If they want to believe in something that does not have good evidence then no attempt to show them facts will dissuade them and will in all likelihood make them double-down on their irrational beliefs.

As you mentioned, they would rather dismiss overwhelming evidence and default to their indoctrinated viewpoint without sufficient evidence. For religious arguments this is called " god of the gaps". Both FE's and the religious rarely step beyond their fellow believers and honestly examine the evidence. For them it is much more preferable to watch YouTube or be fed a diatribe from their pastor.

Believing in a FE is down to stupidity. Belief in a god and holding on to that belief is down to indoctrination and fear.

 

[GotSmart]

As a proud member of PKD, “The debate thing” answer is pure hokum. Debates are about using documented and proven facts. Source is a common demand and not having a good one will cause a loss. Those so called surveys were treated as a joke by the participants because of the subject matter. They were flawed from the beginning and therefore invalid.

Sort of like taking a survey at a political rally or a bar at closing time.

An example of a flawed question. Do you still beat your wife?

 

[Morgana]

Belief and disbelief in God are both acts of faith.
You can't rationally prove either one.

No need to insult every religious person on the forum (of which I am not one, but fair is fair).

If you think that what your one set of eyes and brains tell you is the whole story --
or if you think you know all the massively complex things that move people to believe or disbelieve --
then maybe you could benefit from more evidence and rationality, too.

Life is just not that simple.

 

[Morgana]

I was waiting at the tire shop the other day when a guy my age (intermediate geezerhood) walked up and started giving religious witness. Part of me was super annoyed but part of me could see that he was really making an effort to do something that didn't come easy to him. (Just how much effort it takes, I could remember from my very-long-ago religious childhood.) So I tried to be nice. The best I could muster was "mmm hmm, OK" but hopefully that was enough.

If he was some pushy glad-hander it would have been different but he was obviously just trying to be positive in his own way. Life is complicated, Horatio.

 

[RvNaut]

The first sentence on the road to wisdom is "I do not know."

Surely anyone that says they do know has stopped exploring what there is to know. There are absolutes in our world, based here on Earth... gravity, the sun, the air we breathe are all knowns and absolutes we take for granted every day, but these absolutes only exist for us in this reality. Were we to "live on the moon" .. air is an abstract concept....

so .. yeah... the earth is round.. it is a function of gravity, creating equal forces in all directions as the mass accumulates. Thus in the universe we experience everything over a certain size, is round. This is this way do to physics.
I highly recommend the audio book, The Human Universe. a great listen...

 

[CosmickGold]

I was waiting at the tire shop the other day when a guy my age (intermediate geezerhood) walked up and started giving religious witness. Part of me was super annoyed but part of me could see that he was really making an effort to do something that didn't come easy to him. (Just how much effort it takes, I could remember from my very-long-ago religious childhood.) So I tried to be nice. The best I could muster was "mmm hmm, OK" but hopefully that was enough.

If he was some pushy glad-hander it would have been different but he was obviously just trying to be positive in his own way. Life is complicated, Horatio.

A year or two ago, when I finished my book, I was just like that man you spoke of, "super annoying" people by handing out my card to everyone I passed on the street or in the stores, a card that shows where to read my free book online. My motive was my desire to help others by sharing the 50 most marvelous experiences of my life so that they could experience these great things too. But like your man, I was being a real pain and didn't even know it. It was a hard (and personally hurtful) lesson for me to find that most people do not want to learn anything new. Some even shoving my card back to me, obviously angry. I'd try to explain "But, but...." as they turned their backs to make their escape.

I've tamed it down greatly since then, and now only offer my card to those who first say "How are you?" And even then I hold it at some distance and say "If you want it, it explains how I am now and how I've been for a very long time".

This week, I was waiting for an appointment and the lady stranger waiting behind me began talking with me about Jesus. It was an interesting conversation we were both interested in, so I told her how to find the article I wrote about Jesus on my website next to my book. She took my card and promised to investigate my site and book. But then I made the mistake of asking "Did you know Jesus never said, "Why have You forsaken me" to God while on the cross? Suddenly, she didn't want to be friends any more.

I wanted to explain to her that the original Aramaic of that line is included in our bible -- along with the English -- because the interpreters were not sure what it really meant. So they left the original as is, as well as explain what they thought it meant in English. But in the original, the word "Why?" never asks why, it only tells why, meaning "For this reason". And the word interpreted "forsaken" literally means "set aside for a special purpose". So Jesus was literally thanking God, expressing his appreciation, and exclaiming His success with what should have been interpreted as, "My Father! This is the reason you set me aside and prepared me. This was your plan from the beginning!"

But that poor lady headed for the door. I followed her, not wanting to have left off saying something that sounded impossibly strange, only that Jesus didn't say "Why have you forsaken me." The lady whirled around and exclaimed, "I have to go! I have to meet my husband! He's waiting for me." So that was the end of it. She'll probably spend the rest of her life thinking I was a crazy guy, and never learn the rest of the story; or know how to look it up. And that's sad. I did call to her as she ran, "The whole story is on my website. You'll understand it there". But I'm pretty sure she'll only throw my card away, never learning more.

Further up, Paulrh wrote:

. . . .If they want to believe in something that does not have good evidence then no attempt to show them facts will dissuade them and will in all likelihood make them double-down on their irrational beliefs. . . . they would rather dismiss overwhelming evidence and . . . . [default to their own views] without sufficient evidence. . . . For them it is much more preferable to watch YouTube. . . . Believing in a FE is down to stupidity. . . .

I agree that YouTube is full of pure crap! In searching for the truth, I find at least 75% is fake, and it's sad that they are fooling so many innocent people. But the real stuff is on YouTube too. The video I presented in comment #19 names scientists and specific experiments showing the Earth to be holding still and sitting in the center of the universe (as a Flat Earth would be). Since the first satellite reported these findings, they have sent up two more satellites with different sensing equipment to prove the first satellite's data was faulty, but all three satellites have sent back data verifying the same thing, the Earth is sitting still in the center of the Universe.

If you -- or anyone -- can show how these experiments are faulty, and how the data became wrong, I'd love to hear about it. I really do want to know the truth. But when even top scientists can't find a way to show the data is wrong, I'm not ready to accept that "Believing in a FE is down to stupidity." There's more here than meets the eye (or our current level of technical instrumentation).

 

[BelgianPup]

If the Earth is flat, why can you see the mast on a large sailing ship before you can see the ship itself?

 

[Zerpersande]

I think I remember Newton had a law of physics that stated "What goes up, must come down.”

Nope, you remember wrong.

So does the fact that Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 will never return to our solar system break that law? I think not at all.

I alsothink not at all. But prinarily because that’s isn’t one of Newton’s Laws to be broken.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[RvNaut]

The first sentence on the road to wisdom is "I do not know."

Surely anyone that says they do know has stopped exploring what there is to know. There are absolutes in our world, based here on Earth... gravity, the sun, the air we breathe are all knowns and absolutes we take for granted every day, but these absolutes only exist for us in this reality. Were we to "live on the moon" .. air is an abstract concept....

so .. yeah... the earth is round.. it is a function of gravity, creating equal forces in all directions as the mass accumulates. Thus in the universe we experience everything over a certain size, is round. This is this way do to physics.
I highly recommend the audio book, The Human Universe. a great listen...

 

[maki2]

I am happy as long as I can find a relatively flat spot to camp but as that is not always the case I know for sure the earth is not flat.

 

[Happy Camper]

I'm just waiting for Google maps to end and say "Here be dragon's!"

 

[CosmickGold]

If the Earth is flat, why can you see the mast on a large sailing ship before you can see the ship itself?

According to the web page: https://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/FlatEarth/

• Einstein said that gravity bends light, so the reason that a ship on the horizon disappears hull first and mast last is because the Earth's gravity is bending the light rays from the hull into the ocean before they reach our eyes.

 

[RvNaut]

because the Earth's gravity is bending the light

Nice try... the gravity of the earth isn't powerful enough to bend light.... besides, if you start to quote Gravity as a cause then that also means you understand why the earth and every other celectial body larger than "x" is a ball. ( x being around 500 miles diameter depending on what it is made of)

 

[CosmickGold]

I said I think I remember Newton had a law of physics that stated "What goes up, must come down." You correct me with:

Nope, you remember wrong.

And you are right. I stand corrected. I tried looking up "What goes up, must come down", and while some sites claim Isaac Newton stated it they don't say where. Other sites say the phrase is an idiom from the 1800s. Still, other sites claim it was a saying among the early cavemen!

Looking at Newton's actual laws, I see they are far more scientifically detailed than a simple "What goes up, must come down". So you are again right in stating:

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Clearly, I should have looked the matter up again from good sources before trying to explain it.

 

[GotSmart]

Anything from the smu webpage is an opinion. They are non peer reviewed papers on random subjects. Not a hard fact to provide back up light.

 

[Happy Camper]

What goes up, definitely goes somewhere.

Happy Camper - 2022

 

[CosmickGold]

I'm just waiting for Google maps to end and say "Here be dragon's!"

 

[rruff]

If you -- or anyone -- can show how these experiments are faulty, and how the data became wrong, I'd love to hear about it. I really do want to know the truth. But when even top scientists can't find a way to show the data is wrong, I'm not ready to accept that "Believing in a FE is down to stupidity." There's more here than meets the eye (or our current level of technical instrumentation).

The problem appears to be that you do not understand the topic you are questioning, and you deem any alternative "theory" as equally valid or maybe more valid just because you like the sound of it. And you apparently don't understand how the physics (or any hard science) community operates.

This video is about the proof that (1) the Earth is stationary in space, not moving at all; and (2) the Earth is located at the very center of the universe. Scientists have not been able to find a way around these proofs, but they certainly keep trying as it seriously messes up their standard theories. Though not exactly proof that the earth is flat, it is closely related and gives reason to accept such a possibility. (This is just one of a fair number of videos about these specific proofs and how they put the rest of science into question.)

This is a good example. Why do you believe "scientists have not been able to find a way around these proofs"? Seriously, I want to know how you decided this was the case... is it just because the guy in the video said so?

The experiment he is talking about is the Michelson-Morley experiment done in the 1880s. They were trying to find evidence of the "ether" a substance never detected, but postulated based on the idea that electromagnetic waves probably need to propagate through some substance, as other waves do. Their experiments didn't show that "the earth is the center of the universe" which would be ridiculous. It was well proven that the Earth orbited the sun like the other planets, and spun on an axis. What their experiments showed was that there was no ether! Or rather they failed to detect any. You can read a little about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson–Morley_experiment

A couple decades later a nobody patent clerk presented a paper with a theory that resolved many of the physics conundrums that existed at the time. The author was Albert Einstein, and the subject was what we now know as the Special Theory of Relativity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

Einstein's theory fit with existing data, which meant it *could* be true (ie accurately describe physical reality). What do you suppose the physics community did... bow down and worship this new theory... make it a part of their dogma? No, they set out to prove it wrong... by testing it's implications. Including Einstein himself! It was not just "accepted". And physicists have been trying to disprove it for over 100 years! This will never stop since they'd be famous if they did. As far as we know the Theory of Relativity describes the physical world precisely. And there is no ether.

Some quack hack making a video to defend his dogmatic belief that the earth is the center of the universe, because it says so in the Bible... is not worth paying the slightest bit of attention to. His "proof" was disproven 117 years ago! Well actually long before that when it was proven that the Earth orbits the sun and could not be "the center of the universe" in any sensible way.

According to the web page: https://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/FlatEarth/

• Einstein said that gravity bends light, so the reason that a ship on the horizon disappears hull first and mast last is because the Earth's gravity is bending the light rays from the hull into the ocean before they reach our eyes.

So... determine how much Earth's gravity would bend a light ray (you can probably look this up), and whether it is enough to account for this phenomena. This is HS level stuff... geometry mostly.

EDIT: I looked it up. It's <1/1,000,000 of a degree. Now calculate if that is enough to account for the phenomena we observe with ships. Another FE favorite is that the apparent curvature is caused by distortion of light rays due to the atmosphere. But you can investigate that topic as well, and see if it makes sense.

In conclusion, if you wish to know the truth about the physical world, then look up the current accepted *actual* scientific theory on the topic and go with that. Physicists who are experts in their field and know way more about it than you, are busy using those theories to make things that actually work every day. Satellites, space probes, nuclear reactors, particle accelerators, etc. These theories are regularly tested in search of "flaws"... situations where they do not describe reality accurately. They have it well in hand.

There is plenty of room for wonder and all sorts of supernatural speculation, but it's good to ground yourself in what is real and proven, rather than make everything subject to belief and imagination.

 

[rruff]

I wanted to explain to her that the original Aramaic of that line is included in our bible -- along with the English -- because the interpreters were not sure what it really meant. So they left the original as is, as well as explain what they thought it meant in English. But in the original, the word "Why?" never asks why, it only tells why, meaning "For this reason". And the word interpreted "forsaken" literally means "set aside for a special purpose". So Jesus was literally thanking God, expressing his appreciation, and exclaiming His success with what should have been interpreted as, "My Father! This is the reason you set me aside and prepared me. This was your plan from the beginning!"

I did a little research on this topic. First it would be good to realize that religious people have been very uncomfortable with this passage from near the beginning... because it does not fit the dogma they teach. Some in the early days actually edited it out. Even Luke for instance who used Mark as a source for his gospel decided to omit that part. Matthew left it in (Mark was the first gospel written, and Matthew and Luke used it as a source). Some actually edit the Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic words, but others have been content with just reinterpreting it.

There is a recent "theory" that Jesus spoke a northern dialect of Aramaic that the listener didn't understand, and that his voice wasn't clear, and that he meant something completely different than what was written down. I would respond that if the author of Mark got it wrong, then that disproves Biblical infallibility. You can't have it both ways. At any rate this is a very fringe theory that most scholars dismiss even though it fits better with their dogma. And unlike most things in science, there will never be a way to prove it one way or another.

I'm fine with the original since it shows Jesus's humanity, and fits quite well with the Garden of Gethsemane scene. No matter how "identified with God" a person might be, severe physical abuse and imminent death, can weaken that connection and bring focus back to a different level. No shame in having a brief feeling of abandonment at a time like that.

 

[Tony's Dream]

Personally, I love a good debate. If I tell you the sky is green and you debate me that it's blue. I respect that. If you roll your eyes and walk away, then I think less of you. Some people take the position that you should not waste your time debating with idiots, but debate is necessary in our world. It makes me sad to see so many things that you can't talk about these days.