Flat Tax

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Canine

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Hope we can talk economics without crossing over into politics.Just wondering how many folks besides myself would be in favor of a flat federal income tax rate.Say 20%.If you make $10 you pay $2.If you make $10 million,you pay$2 million.
 
That's way too much, 5% total, 1% each to city, county, state, feds, and fed emergency management.

Then make em live within those budget constraints.
 
Off Grid 24/7 said:
That's way too much, 5% total, 1% each to city, county, state, feds, and fed emergency management.

Then make em live within those budget constraints.

I agree, the lowest tax rate now is 10%. This could increase taxes for some people! I think the idea of a flat tax is to simplify the income tax but it should also reduce the tax burden on people so it is easy to pay. If it becomes too much of a burden on people they seek out a way not to pay, legal or not! At $10 an hour a 20% tax is huge when you're struggling to pay rent and utilities and food!
 
Unfortunately,that wouldn't even pay the interest on the debt.The only way a 5% rate would work would be to tax religious income.Since this country is 70% Christian,I don't think that would work.Be that as it may,it seems you would be in favor of the concept?
 
I don't know what the percentage will have to be, but I've always been in favor of a flat tax. It seems to me to be the only equitable solution as everyone pays their fair share. The poor make very little, so they pay little. And the rich pay in proportion to what they make, instead of being able to hide so much legally from taxation. And the middle income earners don't get stuck with the biggest tax burden. With a flat rate we could also get rid of a large portion of the IRS staff - saving the government millions per year - some would say that would increase unemployment, but the government shouldn't be our biggest source of employment anyway. Plus, I think this would allow many more middle income earners to pursue their dreams and open many more mom and pop businesses, adding to the jobs available.

In many ways it could actually be a step in the right direction toward saving our society. If, as I suspect it would encourage more small business, and not favor the industrial giants, we could start to head back toward a more community oriented society. It certainly wouldn't solve all our problems, but it would be a start.
 
When my income varied widely year to year, I would have really liked a flat tax. Given a flat tax rate I wouldn't have started limiting my income so that I stayed below the next % rate increase nor looking for ways to reduce my tax burden.

OTOH, now that I'm retired and will fall below the minimum tax bracket here, I can't wait to start NOT paying taxes. This should be the last year that I will have to pay anything.

Flat tax is fine in theory but it really doesn't work that well in reality. The thing I dislike most about the tax structures currently in place in both our governments is the amount of legal tax reduction methods used by mega large corporations to lower their tax burden.
 
Things like a flat tax have an illusion of fairness. There is the presumption that it could not be gamed. However, when one considers that it is predominantly supported either by those with wealth or those who think they will eventually come into wealth, I can only assume these people believe they will, indeed, be able to game such a system.

Even with the "regressive/progressive" (depending on one's point of view) tax system, many with wealth are actually paying a lower final tax rate than those without. This is primarily due to the greater options afforded them due to their wealth. So, it seems evident that those resources would afford those wealthy with similarly greater options for avoiding any flat tax.

My point is not to argue for or against a flat tax. (I imagine if we had had a flat tax all along, the same people who currently argue for said flatness would instead be arguing for a "progressive" tax, merely because it would be different and because, in this society, the wealthy always seem to actuallynced they deserve more and are being treated unfairly if they can't easily get more.) My point is to illuminate the fallacy of focusing on anything as "simple" as a choice in taxing systems as a solution to the inherent unfairness (perceived or imagined; to the poor or wealthy) in our society.

I believe the real solution is to (somehow) foster an ideology where people believe it is better to take care of others rather than to amass more wealth and power for themselves at all costs.

In researching the various healthcare systems around the world, I was struck by a common theme among wealthy countries which had universal healthcare: The wealthy believed it was in their own best interest to take care of the poor. Not as much because they were afraid of being overrun by hoards of thieving, poor people, but because they simply liked the idea of living in a country where no one had to do without healthcare.

My conjecture (which I have promulgated for a while) is that these other countries have (what I consider to be) a more "mature" attitude because they have had several more centuries to get used to their limited space and resources. Whereas this country has been spoiled by the perception of unlimited space and resources. The wealthy here still believe they can hide away, in their gated communities, with their private police forces to protect them from those hoards of thieving poor people. In fact, those wealthy (and those living with the illusion that they can become so, henceforth to be referred to collectively as "wealthites") often do not even have to be bothered to look at the poor. When they ARE forced to look at said poor, such as the beggars at the major intersections, the wealthites construct myths to console themselves. These myths say the poor choose to be so. Or that these beggars are actually making lots of money from said begging.

So, in conclusion, things like tax systems are mere window dressing. Merely rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Merely a wool that far too many willingly pull over their own eyes. The only true solution is to foster a society where people TRULY care about one another.


Love Care Think Do
 
When the income tax started in 1913 it was only for the 1% that were rich and at 1% tax rate. So the majority didn't protest the new tax law. Once in place they could progressively include the rest of the People!
 
Merely to play devil's advocate, I'll raise a question no one else has, yet.  Charities and Religions.

If there is no deduction for people who itemize their taxes for charitable and religious giving, what will be the effect on charities and churches?

Regards
John
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
Merely to play devil's advocate, I'll raise a question no one else has, yet.  Charities and Religions.

If there is no deduction for people who itemize their taxes for charitable and religious giving, what will be the effect on charities and churches?

Regards
John

I think many people will still give it won't change much. Deductions don't really add up to much, I figured it out once to see how much it saved me in taxes. For every dollar I spent to get a deduction I was getting 7 cents on the dollar back!
 
along the same lines when the "INCOME TAX" was passed in 1913 wages were not income. highdesertranger
 
Flat tax...."YES!"
Tax religious organizations and churches......   "YES!"

Am I an atheist?  No.  I am a Diest like many Founding Fathers.
 
I'm sure there is a level of income for which the government spends more in processing the forms/refunds than they get in tax, so there should be no taxes filed for those with incomes at or below that level. Above that, a nice flat tax rate of 10% would be about right. No deductions except maybe mortgage interest.
 
in this day and age, I see no reason why those on salaries have to file a tax return when the government already has all this information. their computers should be able to spit out this information at the end of the year and refund or not automatically.
 
Spirituallifetime said:
I think many people will still give it won't change much. Deductions don't really add up to much, I figured it out once to see how much it saved me in taxes. For every dollar I spent to get a deduction I was getting 7 cents on the dollar back!

Will you be offended if I suggest that you are not the kind of person I was thinking of?  I was wondering about the wealthy people who give gifts of 50 or 100 thousand dollars or more to museums, hospitals, and other institutions and get a tax write off for it.

Does anyone think they will still be so eager to "give" their money away if there is no tax credit for doing so?

What effect will it have on our cultural institutions?

I wonder how much medical research is funded by government grants, and how much is funded by tax deductable gifts to groups like, say, the American Cancer Society?

If we had had a flat tax for the last hundred years or so, what would the "average life span" be right now?  Would half of the people on this forum already be dead? 

Regards
John
 
flying kurbmaster said:
in this day and age, I see no reason why those on salaries have to file a tax return when the government already has all this information. their computers should be able to spit out this information at the end of the year and refund or not automatically.

LOL.  It is the guberment.  Have you had any dealings with the guberment? :mad:  I am working on filing for social security and medicare.  Social security website allows you to do everything you need to EXCEPT make a check mark somewhere telling them to withhold taxes.  I had to call a social security office to ask about withholding.  I had to go to a different part of their site and download a form to fill out to tell them to withhold taxes and mail it in after searching google to get the nearest social security office to mail it to.  If I had missed this little piece, I can imagine next year I would have been in for a shock when it was time to file and maybe had to pay penalties on top of that for not having enough withheld.  

Medicare filing was not much better.  I actually had to get a person that I know in HR to help me through the process.

The guberment is very inefficient.  Just look at what the VA puts our vets through.  There is the old saying, "I am from the guberment and I am here to help you".  Prepare to bend over.......

Shortley I am going to have to start the process of SSDI for my DW.  I am SURE that will be easy peasy, NOT.
 
flying kurbmaster said:
in this day and age, I see no reason why those on salaries have to file a tax return when the government already has all this information. their computers should be able to spit out this information at the end of the year and refund or not automatically.

HA Ha Ha Ha Ha!   What makes you think the Government can get anything RIGHT?

I was REQUIRED -by law - to go on Medicare last June.  My insurance company informed me that Medicare is now my primary insurance, and they are my secondary insurance.  However, Medicare is claiming that THEY are my secondary insurance and my insurance company is still my primary insurance.  I'm getting bills for routine tests that the insurance company USED to routinely pay, because these idiots can't get the simplest thing straight!

Regards
John
 
The flat tax is the only fair way. The wealthy like to point out how many dollars they pay in taxes. 10% of millions is a lot of money. Who actually gets burdened more, the person making $50k a year and paying 30% in taxes, or the person who takes in millions and is paying 15%, ( after they hide probably half of their income)? The wealthy have a whole bunch more left over. I always made good money, and wondered where it all went. Between Federal, and State, I lost about 40% to taxes. That is not even counting sales and property tax.

We could drastically reduce the amount of money needed by Government by paying off the national debt. It would hurt our pockets for a little bit, but in the long run it would benifit us. The interest on our loans is dragging us down. It is like paying credit card interest on a balance that keeps growing.

When gasoline was $4 a gallon, we managed to get by. Now it is close to $2. If we added say 50 cents national debt tax to gas when it dropped below say $3 a gallon, and added a dollar if it dropped to $2, our debt would soon be paid off. But like most things, after the debt was paid, Government would want probably to spend the excess money. Our infrastructure needs a lot of upgrades, so possibly it could go for that.

Since about 1950 we have been borrowing money to fight wars that benefit big money interests. Can we really expect that our grand childremn will be able to pay it all back?
 
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