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Another beautiful morning in my little forest paradise.

I had to mail out a package today so went into the town of Tusayan AZ. Decided I wanted a cup of coffee so I stopped at the Wendy’s. I was intrigued when I saw biscuits and gravy for $2.49 on the menu board so I decided to give it a try. Wow! They were actually very good, 4* + good. Lots of sausage in the gravy and it was nice and peppery rather than bland tasting. Best biscuits and gravy meal I have had in the last 3 years and the price was very affordable. That has made it onto my list for an occasional affordable meal out treat while traveling as the price and quality is going to be consistent. The coffee was also very good, robust taste, not weak and watery.
 
It's not just females anymore. Young guys aren't as interested in working on cars as they used to. And each iteration of cars are less fixable than the last. Less things are repairable and more remove and replace.

And it is not going to get any better. More computer integration and control means you not only need mechanical knowledge but computer savvy too. And EVs will probably not fixable by 'shade tree' mechanics.
That's a fact Jack...

Years ago when I was teaching in a suburb of Phoenix the school district (actually the superintendent) decided to shutter all the voc ed programs because "all students need a college degree". (?)

Unfortunately she didn't quite understand her demographic (over 70% minority) and the h.s. dropout % increased each year for the 4 years I was there.

The district never brought back any construction or culinary programs, and only a single small enrollment automotive class.

I used to take my (very likely to dropout) sped students to a nearby heavy equipment repair shop where the techs made 6 figures (back in the early 2000's). You'd think that could be considered a good income/career but no, it wasn't "educated" enough.

IMHO kids should have to take a shop and a home management skills class, with basic budgeting as well. We lost all the "business math" classes back then too.
 
In my humble opinion the newer STEM and STEAM programs are of more value to the current school curriculum than the old school shop for boys and home economics for girls. The STEM and STEAM segments of learning are started in 1st grade and continue on through high school. There are hands on fabrication projects requiring tool use in those programs. They teach electrical theory as well as things like 3D design and printing, laser cutting, etc. Those classes are not treating girls as being too dumb to learn math, science!and technology. I have seen a very direct influence on young women picking up tools and tackling all kinds of build and repair projects with a wide variety of types of projects. You can even watch it happening on their YouTube channels.

As to there not being automotive classes, shop classes or carpentry in high school some school systems still offer them but it is not a mandate they have to do so.

In the USA “Trades” education is now handled in the secondary college “community college”education system where there are automotive courses and courses in CNC machining, carpentry and cabinet making, computer repair and IT technology for managing network installations and even degrees and certificates for Solar electrical design and installation. The opportunities to learn a trade in school is not lacking. Apprenticeship programs also still exist in the trades.
 
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Well my experience is 20 years old so... unsure what it is like today.

All I can surmise is that voc ed and basic "how to survive on your own" instruction is probably still needed w/o having to go to post-secondary schooling.

Some/many cannot afford it or cannot access it due to the lack of ability to pass placement exams. That was the issue we had, the kids (well, 90% + were boys) were unable to read/write well enough to qualify for any post-secondary education. Heck, most of them couldn't even get the minimum 31 on the ASVAB (military screening test) i order to join up.

It's not that they were not teachable, just not that literate.

The home I was living in while out there was built from the foundation forming concrete pour up, framed, sided, wired, plumbed, sheetrocked, painted, finish trimmed and roofed by "south of the border" gents who had maybe one crew member who could interact in English. Doubt they had any formal school-based trades training from wherever they came from.
How will our young men and women be able to compete?
 
How will our young men and women be able to compete?
Your parents and their parents and all the generations before all
Ask that very same question. But in the end each new generation tends to be better educated than the previous one. But that previous generations are pretty much stuck thinking that what they went through at school is the only way it should be done. Fortunately it is not because the world is ever changing in terms of new things and methods. Right now you are seeing a radical change in power systems for automobiles.
 
The trades have become so technically based it may take more training and education than a 4 year college program to be able to make a living. The economical solution that has become widely used is basically replacing something totally that can be manufactured by cheap labor doing repetitive jobs rather than training people to troubleshoot and repair expensive repairable items made to last. The amount of change is difficult to keep up with in most areas by mere mortals especially poorly educated ones.
 
At some point it may break down, we in this 1st world nation have all the tech yet a majority of global citizens do not and need basic skills to survive.

I quit following prepper/doomsday YT creators due to the negativity of the message yet there's at least a glimmer of truth in the post apocalyptic books and videos/movies. If there's ever a system crash or reset, all this high tech chip driven lifestyle will grind to a quick and dirty halt. Those whose only skills are in software/advanced systems and such will be very unwell off.

We still need people who can swing a hammer, grip a steering wheel, farm the land and use basic logic to diagnose a problem. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just saying that not everyone needs a college education to be successful and provide well for themself or a family.

In many respects I would have done much better in the trades as opposed to listening to my fathers oft-stated prejudice against blue-collar work. In my education career I never earned more than $55K a year as a double MEd degree holder while my h.s. graduate truck driver brother exceeded 6 figures the last 7 years he worked.

Yes I can spell/write/read better than he can, yet who has the paid for $800K home, 2020 diesel 1 ton and 34' 5ver trailer and gets a Teamster pension of over $6K a month guaranteed?

Isn't me.
 
^^^They have to be very well educated not only in how to run a business but mechanically inclined to do well without paying a majority of the money they gross to those that do. Yes they are much better paid and working conditions are better in Union jobs but still not as good paying if you consider the many health problems many suffer in later years. I’ve been both a teacher and a truck driver, neither by themselves was as good as working for myself in combination with the state/federal government to get benefits as well. Just my opinion but there are lots of good jobs out there if you are skilled and have the education to do them that do not end up physically destroying your body.
 
What you say is true. My physical condition is better (aside from genetics and nutritional choices) while he has arthritis and other ailments from driving a cabover or short nose Mack for 34 years and breathing in diesel particulate fumes. My state job was safer and more comfortable.

Unfortunately I taught in 3 states and none had/have crossover pension plans while he drove in a 5 state region, all under his Teamster retirement umbrella. So I end up with a $1100 pension and no medical. It was my choice to move so I can't complain (much).
 
A couple of years ago, I ran across an article where some American companies were complaining that it was almost impossible to find actual highly educated Americans to hire. They said they usually ended up having to hire people from Asia.

I looked online to find a list of the educational level of all of the countries in the world. I looked and looked, but what I found only listed NON-INDUSTRIALIZED countries. After continued searching, I finally did find a list of all of the countries, 199 of them, IIRC.

The USA was listed as either 154th or 156th.
 
In my humble opinion the newer STEM and STEAM programs are of more value to the current school curriculum than the old school shop for boys and home economics for girls .....
STEAM? Comes up on Google as a game playing mobile app.

Should be room for both STEM and vocational education in our schools. Your words 'current' and 'old' is the problem: schools need to keep up with current (and future) technology in whatever disciplines they are teaching.
I like the German model where students are not directed to a college prep curriculum unless they show aptitude to succeed; they are encouraged to go into trade apprenticeships (which start in high school and are funded by industry).

All I can surmise is that voc ed and basic "how to survive on your own" instruction is probably still needed w/o having to go to post-secondary schooling .....
I would settle for public schools teaching kids how to read (at least at an 8th grade level), be able to express their thoughts on paper, speak business english, understand basic finance (which also means knowing how to add), and methods of solving problems. The rest can be learned post high school.

..... In many respects I would have done much better in the trades as opposed to listening to my fathers oft-stated prejudice against blue-collar work .....
I advise any kids that ask to become a plumber or elecrician. Not going to outsource a plugged toilet to India. The plumbers I know retired making over $100K a year.
 
The European or German model certainly has its advantages.

The Atlantic Magazine, in a nearly 10 year old article entitled "Why Germany Is So Much Better at Training Its Workers" by Tamar Jacoby, (Oct 16, 2014) stated: (Begin direct quotations)
"...I’ve just come back from Germany, where I visited some half dozen apprenticeship programs at brand-name companies like Daimler, Siemens, and Bosch, and the metaphor I came away with is a native tree—flourishing, productive, highly adapted to its local climate zone, but unlikely to take root or grow in a climate as different as the America's. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t adapt the German model. But it’s not going to be quick or easy.

The U.S. has its own tradition of apprenticeship going back many years. But like most kinds of vocational education, it fell out of fashion in recent decades—a victim of our obsession with college and concern to avoid anything that resembles tracking. Today in America, fewer than 5 percent of young people train as apprentices, the overwhelming majority in the construction trades. In Germany, the number is closer to 60 percent—in fields as diverse as advanced manufacturing, IT, banking, and hospitality. And in Europe, what’s often called “dual training” is a highly respected career path..."

"A final virtue of the German system: its surprising flexibility. Skeptical Americans worry that the European model requires tracking, and it’s true, German children choose at age 10 among an academic high school, a vocational track, or something in between. But it turns out there’s a lot of opportunity for trainees to switch tracks later on. They can go back to school to specialize further or earn a master craftsman’s certificate or train as a trainer in the company’s apprenticeship program—and many do. What education reformers call “lifelong learning” is still a distant dream for most Americans. In Germany, it’s a reality."


"The final obstacle is arguably the biggest: American attitudes toward practical skills and what Germans still unabashedly call “blue-collar” work. Attitudes are changing in Germany too. Globalization has brought the bachelor’s degree, unknown until recently, and with it, a new, broader interest in attending college. But there’s little sign that the growth in BAs is undermining apprenticeships. And in both settings, university and dual training, it’s agreed that the purpose of education is to prepare people for jobs. In America, we’re not sure. We’re committed to the idea of education that prepares people for life and suspicious of anything that smacks of training." (Bolding is mine for emphasis only, end of direct quotations.)

I know that if I wrote a dissertation today on the current need for that type of a training program I would be a pariah amongst educators yet, the truth sometimes hurts.

I'll let this topic go, thanks for the interesting replies and polite divergent views.
 
I would settle for public schools teaching kids how to read (at least at an 8th grade level), be able to express their thoughts on paper, speak business english, understand basic finance (which also means knowing how to add), and methods of solving problems. The rest can be learned post high school.
I would argue that a lot of people know how to add. The problem I seem to see most when it comes to finances is the ability to subtract.

So many seem to concentrate on how much they make, and credit they can use to spend even more. They don't realize learning how to subtract, and managing what you're subtracting for (items and services), is critical to financial success.

The above should be the basics of finance. For anyone.
 
STEM versus STEAM. The additional letter A stands for including “Art” in the curriculum.
I am definetly in support of the STEAM curriculum. I like science, technology, engineering and mathematics as well as the arts.
 
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In my humble opinion the newer STEM and STEAM programs are of more value to the current school curriculum than the old school shop for boys and home economics for girls. The STEM and STEAM segments of learning are started in 1st grade and continue on through high school. There are hands on fabrication projects requiring tool use in those programs. They teach electrical theory as well as things like 3D design and printing, laser cutting, etc. Those classes are not treating girls as being too dumb to learn math, science! and technology. I have seen a very direct influence on young women picking up tools and tackling all kinds of build and repair projects with a wide variety of types of projects. You can even watch it happening on their YouTube channels.
If you are lucky enough to find a really good preschool it starts at birth. I have always worked STEM into our classroom. 3D design is blocks, playdough, legos and 'stuff'. Science is "Let's make cookies and see what happens if we use bacon in the dough" Or 'I wonder what it will do if....', We made rain indoors, turned out lights and made lightning. We found out how wind moves things and watched as heat and cold made our paper airplanes rise and sink.
I had one group that by the end of their 3 years they could tell you why gas made cars go. Instead of telling them stay away from fire, nails, tools and 'dangerous' stuff just point blank, turn them into teachable time.
Albert Einstein said if you want your kid to think read them fairy tales cause if they can imagine that a dragon can fly then they can imagine what might happen if you mix this with that chemical. And if you allowed imagination, that this toy makes this sound (not batteries) then you can imagine this wiggly line makes the Mmmmmm sound. And that one makes the Zzzzzzzzz sound.
I have 4 yr olds that help me on the Alexis and phone stuff they are waaaay ahead of me. But screen time should be limited.... and used carefully.
Ok off my soap box just bugs me sometimes that folks think education starts so late. As in 5-6. I have had lots of kidos start multiplication at 4-5, almost as soon as they can understand adding and what it means. I have played chess with 5 yr old and that was because his dad did not tell us he knew how except when someone gave us pieces to add to our art box... And we then got a complete set just so he could teach others. No, he was the only one that knew how to do it. The rest of the kids just turned it into crash stuff.
 
A childs entire purpose in life is to learn. Learn how to walk, speak, interact. Find out what works and what doesn't.

When my son was a toddler, I would talk and explain things to him in depth when he did something wrong. His mom and my mother in law used to laugh and say I was wasting my time. Just put him in a corner timeout and be done with it.

Later they found out he understood everything, and had been standing there thinking about what I was saying in relation to what he had done wrong. And deciding if it was worth it to do it again.

For some reason adults forget how much they could learn when they were that young.
 
In high school in the '70s we had 3 year auto shop, machine shop both 2 hours per day, 1 year small engine repair, wood shop, drafting & welding also 2 hours a day. You could be a machinist or licensed mechanic. Both my sons had full 4 year scholarships @ Mich St & didn't go. My oldest is a lineman for AEP & goes to Ft Wayne to teach a new class "Hot sticking" which he introduced to AEP as he was a foreman for a tree service before. He got paid well while he went thru their program but now makes well over $100k & great benefits. Most of the lineman retired the year he completed the program so now he's #2 & the union steward.
My youngest did some night school & runs the water, sewer dept & DPW for a large town on Lake MI. Both have done very well & 4 years of college just wasn't for them.
IMHO kids should do 1 or 2 years in the military after HS & get much of their college paid & could do the basics online while in the military as many kids don't have the disipline, structure or maturity to handle going away to collage at 18. It's a huge change from living at home.
 
^^^ I have meet very few students that would not benefit from 2 to 4 years of military service or public service like the peace corps between the ages of 17 to 28 years old. In my opinion every person should serve and receive a year of training for each year they served whether college or vocational at a more mature age in their mid to late 20s.
 
^^^ I have meet very few students that would not benefit from 2 to 4 years of military service or public service like the peace corps between the ages of 17 to 28 years old. In my opinion every person should serve and receive a year of training for each year they served whether college or vocational at a more mature age in their mid to late 20s.
At the risk of getting too political, instead of waiving/forgiving student loans for no gain to society, how about a $10-15K forgiveness for each year of serving in the military, peace corps, job corps or red cross disaster relief. That way both sides benefit.

Wayyy back in the day the CCC aided some 3M young men in gainful employment during the depression.
From Wikipedia: (begin quote)
“The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) was a voluntary government work relief program that ran from 1933 to 1942 in the United States for unemployed, unmarried men ages 18–25 and eventually expanded to ages 17–28.[1] The CCC was a major part of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal that supplied manual labor jobs related to the conservation and development of natural resources in rural lands owned by federal, state, and local governments. The CCC was designed to supply jobs for young men and to relieve families who had difficulty finding jobs during the Great Depression in the United States.

Robert Fechner was the first director of this agency, succeeded by James McEntee following Fechner's death. The largest enrollment at any one time was 300,000. Through the course of its nine years in operation, three million young men took part in the CCC…”. (End quote)

So update the program to include all females/women/non-men/binary/whatever you call yourself and give our drifting younger people some skill training and pride in themselves again.
Worked then, might work now.
 

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