what % of the population would have to become van dwellers before it became illegal?

[BelgianPup]

Gizmotron, Yes, I know about sqftg minimums, but they are in the more heavily populated areas, and expecting to create the kind of place we're thinking of will not be in places like that. 400 sqftg (20x20 ft) minimums are still quite common.

 

[gizmotron]

People have to have SOME kind of income source, even to live in a van. ...

There isn't any kind of planned place for people without money.  The closest thing that exists are... the city homeless camps, very dangerous places to be.  The majority of these people DO NOT  want or intend to play by normal rules, the booze and the drugs are their top priority.

Yep, so if you live in your car, suv, or van then you are just as guilty as the so called rif-raf, all by association. It's another soft form of bigotry. And it's only until it stops being that. It comes down to homeless or houseless. It's like looking at a well maintained RV or a trashed out, broke down pile of junk. One thing that the LTVA's do is separate those that can function and those that can't. It takes money to get to them. I knew a lady that was houseless and lived on foot in the Thousand Trails system. She had a membership and travelled from park to park with a tent, backpack, and a dog.  She would walk into town to get things. It actually worked for her. Thousand Trails got sick of it and made a new rule. No more three week stays on their $5,000+ memberships for tent campers. So with a wave of their magic wand they ripped good people off. Totally legal too.

A county can pull a use permit any time that they want to. The only thing that will stop them is having a big enough group that can ban together and bring litigation. As you know war is illegal. Those suckers are not houseless. They are just sitting there with no way to move what they have. But it takes applied force to stop those that have power. What's worse is that they could come out at us Nomads and legislate against us. We know all this is possible because we have seen it in the education systems. Most people know that school boards have lots of power to do what they want. It's just the way that it is. I think that the Nomads in vehicles are just flying under the radar and hoping that they will be allowed to live. Hence the title of this thread. BLM & National Forest lands are OK, if you can get to them. The caravan, (tribe), system looks like the best model. We have a working system now. It just means stay out of the cities. It comes down to the haves & the have-nots. Nomads are not trying to solve the homeless problem. They can't. That's what the general public must come to understand. This is a lifestyle with a different economical structure, allowing for a different expectation on oneself. It's mostly possible because of the internet. People can be employed remotely. ...

 

[txmnjim]

There isn't any kind of planned place for people without money.  The closest thing that exists are... the city homeless camps, very dangerous places to be.  The majority of these people DO NOT  want or intend to play by nomal rules, the booze and the drugs are their top priority.

 horrible overgeneralization but exactly what the Ruling Class wants you to believe! at this very moment in our 
Covid, disappearing jobs history MANY, including me, could easily be out on the streets! its a matter of how much
support you have when the hammer drops and many dont have any

 

[rvwandering]

Please do not denigrate any groups of people, including homeless people. It's hardly fair to lump them together and decide that most of them are unworthy of help or sympathy.

 

[gizmotron]

 MANY, including me, could easily be out on the streets! its a matter of how much
support you have when the hammer drops and many dont have any

It happened to me back in 1995, in winter. My car was a compact hatchback kind of a station wagon by Mitsubishi. I had a skill. I had tools.  I moved from 7,000ft elevation to near sea level. Before that I sold off things that I didn't need. I lived by parking in the national forest about 30 miles away. I found a place where they sell decorative silver rounds at wholesale on the way to where I was going. I would buy around $200 worth and take them to an indoor flea-market. I was making as much as $200 a weekend at the flee-markets. I did that for 6 months. People will buy things for more money if you make them look like they are worth it. I found an original copy of a Start Trek poster in another vender's files full of posters and purchased it for $1. I displayed it in my booth and sold it for $15 the same day. My booth only had interesting junk. I loved it. It kept me alive for 6 months.  I went back into construction the next summer. People will pay top dollar for skilled workers. My point is that if the wolves don't get you then you are not the slowest sheep running scared.

 

[gizmotron]

Please do not denigrate any groups of people, including homeless people. It's hardly fair to lump them together and decide that most of them are unworthy of help or sympathy.

There is only one group that seem to get very little sympathy. And even they are trying to be helped by others. There are a few drug users that are addicted to substances and live homeless on the streets, by whatever means possible to them. I have never seen these kinds of people in the boondocking world of vehicle dwellers. But someone already mentioned some of these people as parking old wiped out RV's in residential areas of cities. I have seen the pictures. I just can't believe that people like the ones Bob has examples of in his many many life changing videos are in those categories. There is an obvious distinction. I don't want those with power taking away my rights because people living with addictions must be treated to being thrown off the cliff. We are talking about Nomads being able to at least keep doing what we are doing. So far all the power is in the hands of mayors or county administrators. I know for a fact that Thousand Trails Corporate has put the full blown kibosh on transients without means in their parks. They do that just by looking at them. 

So this discussion is about there being something that can be done or not to protect what we already enjoy. There is no way for instance to kill off Quartzite. Or is there? It seems that they would have to put an end to that in order to take away our rights.  Just food for thought for sitting around the campfire this winter. We are not going to solve the homelessness problem in America. All that is happening is that an affordable safety net exists if you can reach up to that level. Life is already discriminatingly unfair.  Those of us that want this lifestyle of being houseless don't want to be legislated out of existence. At least that much is in line with this discussion. I'm not fear mongering. I'm not trying to make a soapbox stand. I just want to live and let live. But this discussion at least is forcing me to look ahead and consider "what if."

 

[jacqueg]

Yes, there are local governments who will want to restrict as much as they can.

But I don't worry too much about a blanket prohibition of vehicle dwelling. For the simple reason that the IRS accepts RVs and boats as primary residences - and the wealthy folks will not accept having this curtailed.

 

[gizmotron]

But I don't worry too much about a blanket prohibition of vehicle dwelling. For the simple reason that the IRS accepts RVs and boats as primary residences - and the wealthy folks will not accept having this curtailed.

That's good thinking. Nice comment for this discussion.

 

[ChileSauceCritic]

Yes, there are local governments who will want to restrict as much as they can.

But I don't worry too much about a blanket prohibition of vehicle dwelling. For the simple reason that the IRS accepts RVs and boats as primary residences - and the wealthy folks will not accept having this curtailed.

 You see my fear is not so much on the federal level as most remote workers who live in vans still pay income tax(taken right out of their check) so the feds don't care, but local governments who get their money through property taxes will begin to view vandwellers as scavengers as we use the roads, hospitals(emergency rooms), libraries, parks etc etc but aren't paying into the maintaining of those things right now the numbers are small but as more more people are learning they can live a better life without a house or apartment strapped to their back, and with vandwelling social media personalities showing the better aspects of vanlife eventually many major cities will cry foul when the numbers get too high. 

 Many remote workers are flocking to cities they couldn't afford to live in traditionally on their income.
 like this guy who loves living in LA makes decent money but not enough to live traditionally in LA with it's nightlife and beaches so he has all the benifits of LA living without the HIGH rent. 
[video=youtube]

 

[eDJ_]

Gizmotron wrote:

I think this cartoon sums up those who would make remote working Van Nomads outlaws.

It's simplistic to divide culture and blame those that risk going into business and hire people on the result of other forces wanting more and taking it by mandate. Where is the comic strip for that? There was this guy that came along and discovered balance. He discovered that if you take the right amount away from people you could get the most possible in return for the effort. We are living in a time where taking more to satisfy needs is considered the smartest way to go. So everyone will be expected to do with less. And blaming it all on a small percentage of earners is also satisfactory, even if it is self destructive.

Perhaps that cartoon may be found in some obscure entrepreneur's or political segment magazine but it would likely look like something Thomas Nast would have illustrated in his times.  Something like Scrooge & Marley snickering as they watch Nigel Fezziwig close his bankrupt business for good.(for the sin of having been too generous to his subordinates)  But would the "ye almighty market" facilitate a main stream audience eager to receive such a cartoon ?  I tend to doubt it.....simplistic or not. Then these times are what have lead to the top 10% holding as much wealth as the bottom 90%.

 

[gizmotron]

...simplistic or not. Then these times are what have lead to the top 10% holding as much wealth as the bottom 90%.

Moderator, please don't delete this response. I promise that I will make it an effort to be about camping rights. 
 
I'm not going to try to change the world by making everyone miserable. If economics' primary goal is to make all things fair then I would not hold my breath as government will be the solution to making that come true. That's too much on my shoulders. Why not start fairness at the local restaurant?  They take 75% added to the actual cost of the food that they cook and bring out. That's not fair. Or, that food can cost $35 to start with because everyone in the chain before delivering it gets a living wage of $20 per hour. Then each person cooking it, serving it, washing the dishes, and those doing the book keeping and paying the bills all get a living wage of $20 per hour. And that 75% markup to pay it all gets cut down to 50% by magical mandate. So the owner gets 25 cents an hour in that new fairness. And your bacon and eggs costs $70 a plate. Yes, that world will be so great. That will show that 10% who is boss.  Why start a business if you can make more washing the dishes. And since nobody is going to stat a business in this new Vanless living fair world, all these people with living wages will have to move into a van too. No jobs equals van life utopia. Being ticked off because people make more money than you think they should means you are wasting your life. If people won't risk trying to make more money then the jobs will all go away. 

It's the same for those trying to make a local principality work. They don't want freeloaders sucking up the resources without them paying their fair share. They need property tax revenue. So how do they collect from RV parks? Do the same for Boondocking parks inside city limits and we can go back to $10 bacon & eggs.

 

[gizmotron]

On that restaurant comment above they add 300% to the cost of the food and charge that much. So $2.50 bacon and eggs costs $10. That's a three times markup. That's standard operating methods.

This is actually funny. Van life, meaning no more property taxes, means the end of the system. That one is easy. Welcome in the pole tax.

"A poll tax, also known as head tax or capitation, is a tax levied as a fixed sum on every liable individual (typically every adult), without reference to income or resources. Head taxes were important sources of revenue for many governments from ancient times until the 19th century."

This is getting fun. This thread is about local governments making enough money off of residents. BTW, we in the van life world are legally considered "transients."

Transients: "persons living in the state for only a short time, without legal residence." I know this because of explanations I received at Thousand Trails member meetings for people wishing to work in the parks.

 

[rvwandering]

Sorry guys, this is getting too political so - thread closed.