ViaVacavi adventure vehicle build log

[ViaVacavi]

Second Upper Cabinet Installed

Had a little spare time today, so we decided to put some finishing touches on the 2nd upper cabinet and install it in the van

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_133122_zpsjn9vvu82.jpg[/img]
At the top of the screen you can see the passenger side upper cabinet that was installed a few days ago.  The new one on the driver's side fit perfectly.  Note that at this point, it's just plain white (I used a latex primer over the canvas to have a stable base to glue the brown paper bag to).  These cabinets are deceptively large, at about 6 1/2 feet long, 14" deep at the bottom and over a foot tall.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_133102_zpsskobcuom.jpg[/img]
Here is a view of the driver/passenger cabinets from the back.  While it still doesn't do it justice, this angle shows the amazing variety and texture the brown paper bag coverings give the cabinets.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_145152_zpsrshjkonv.jpg[/img]
Within an hour we already had the new cabinet covering roughly applied.  It is pretty messy, as it's applied with a watered down glue, so we made sure to cover what we could with spare brown paper.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_145206_zpsp0atfo20.jpg[/img]
The brown paper covering is still drying in this picture, but you can already see how the cabinets are starting to match.


[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_151416_zpsfxpnxolz.jpg[/img]
Here is one happy camper enjoying the view of the new cabinetry from the bed.  It's hard to see from this angle, but the cabinets stop about 6" before the upper skylights, making for a very roomy feeling up front.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201808464689523_zps1ie9ljt2.jpeg[/img]
Even though the counter top/table is just a mock stand-in at this point, she decided to start experimenting with different finishes and ideas while I've been at work.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_133228_zpsfi0cvklz.jpg[/img]
And experimenting with sealing down some maps over the surface as practice for when we do get to this part of the build.


[img=441x640]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/20160604 van weight_zpsbiiz4ltw.jpg[/img]
And I updated the weight report to reflect the second cabinet installation.  It's still hard to believe how light and strong these things are!

 

[ViaVacavi]

Benchmarking the Fridge

I bought a Kill A Watt meter to start getting an idea for energy use of the 120v Fridge/Freezer we put in the van before converting it to 12 volt.

So far the results are pretty promising, and right around where I was hoping.

The fridge draws exactly 60 watts while the compressor is running.  This will put the current draw around 5 amps after the 12 volt conversion and small overhead for the inverter (which will only be on while the compressor is running).

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...8_kindlephoto-359157907_zpscbmgbayr.jpg[/img]
It's not easy to read here, but this test happened over 81 hours and 15 minutes (81.25 hours in decimal)

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...3_kindlephoto-359250344_zpsfvbswfcg.jpg[/img]
During this time, the fridge used 1320 watt-hours. 

Now for some simple math.  1320/81.25=16.25 watt-hours per hour on average
convert that to amp-hours
16.25/12.4=1.3 amp-hours per hour on average.
1.3 amp-hours * 24 hours = right around 31 amp-hours per day.  After some losses associated with the inverter, I expect this to be probably around 33-34 amp-hours per day needed to run the fridge.  Of course this is with no extra insulation, and we do plan on adding a full shell of 2" PolyIso around the fridge.  With that in mind, it should be possible to be below 30 amp-hours per day, which is in line with true 12v compressor fridges that cost 3x more than this complete conversion will cost.  Also keep in mind that this fridge is 3.1 cuFt, and also has a separate freezer.

Lastly, from the numbers gathered, the compressor currently runs about 15% of the time, or roughly 9 minutes each hour.

We are just waiting on the inverter to come in, and then we will be doing the conversion and eventually getting some real world numbers on our new pseudo-12v fridge.

If any of you guys have number they can share as far as amphours per day your current fridge is using for comparison, please share.  My goal is to see how close I can get this to true 12v fridges with efficiency, and eventually post plans on how to do this type of conversion on a variety of 120v compressor fridges.

 

[ViaVacavi]

Upper Cabinets Are In.... And Stained!

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160605_144839_zpsmsaf2ofb.jpg[/img]

The rear cabinet was very easy to build, just being a L-shaped piece that bridges the two side cabinets together.  Here is the 1/2" foam drying.  After this, I cut the opening for the door and did the glue/canvas coating.


[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201831010973166_zps3n50oqfl.jpeg[/img]
This went in easily and quickly.  It was not long at all before we were doing the brown paper bag treatment to match the other cabinets and cover the seams between all 3 separate pieces, making it look like one continuous piece of cabinetry.

[img=640x853]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201832570692158_zpsejarta08.jpeg[/img]
After drying it matched up perfectly with the rest of the cabinets.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201840976342294_zpsipmfkmii.jpeg[/img]
Here are the cabinets drying after the 2nd coat of stain was applied.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201840976462297_zpscyrwgr4l.jpeg[/img]
This picture shows how well the stain helps bring out the contrast between all the torn edges and wrinkles of the paper

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201840976702303_zpsbbczgr7d.jpeg[/img]
Looking from the rear, you can see how large the storage is up top, especially how deep the rear part of the cabinet is.  These pictures don't do it justice, and the longer the stain has set, the more details keep emerging from the brown paper coating.  I'll be sure to get some better pictures soon!

[img=640x853]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201846647164061_zpsrkvg4t9n.jpeg[/img]
Also hard to see from this picture, we've been practicing staining maps to match the tone of the cabinets to wrap the doors in.  You can see a test piece glued to the box above.  We are leaning towards these stained maps being the coverings for the doors, which are already cut out.

Weight-wise, everything is still going great!  The rear cabinet came in at exactly 5 lbs, and the doors will add another 6 lbs (1/4" luan for the doors).  This means that the entire upper cabinet system, doors and all will come in at about 27 lbs total!

 

[ViaVacavi]

Getting A Start On The Ceiling


We got a bit of a start on the ceiling, which is the next logical piece to go in now that the upper cabinets are in and looking great

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160614_123652_zpshwo4plyr.jpg[/img]
I have a bunch of this vintage hardwood, that came out of a 150+ year old house.  These boards are very light and strong even though they are a full 5/4 thickness.  I picked through the pile and found some with grain that I liked, and worked on pulling all the nails and staples out of them

I cut the hardwood to length, then ripped them to 3" planks.  After that, I "re-sawed" each plank into individual planks just less than 1/4" thick.  re-sawing is supposed to be done on a proper setup, normally with a bandsaw.  I only had my trusty table saw, so it had to do.  The planks aren't perfectly uniform thickness, but they didn't come out bad.

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...ived_10201680575931493_zpszelbxtiy.jpeg[/img]
I glued the planks down to some 1/8" plywood to hold it all together.  You can see in the picture that I used shims to equally weight the boards down while the glue dries.  When everything is dry, I will cut around the edges of the panel, then run a belt sander over it for a while to level out all the planks.  After that, it will be ready to be stained and sealed, then installed on the ceiling between all the cabinets.  I'm hoping to have an update on this in a few days.

 

[ViaVacavi]

Updated Weight Report

Here is the updated weight report now that the rear cabinet is in, and the cabinet doors have been cut out and weighed:

[img=402x640]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/van weight 20160614_zpsnym5d7ab.jpg[/img]

We still have over 300 lbs to work with before even getting back to stock weight!

 

[highdesertranger]

well what's the ambient temp where you are doing the test for the refer? before I went with the 12v refers I tried to use one of those 120v energy star refers. all I can say that it was a total waste of money. the thing sucked way more power than it said it would and it barely would keep the temps acceptable. the dorm refers are meant to be in an apartment were the temp is basically regulated. I hope you have better results but for me it was a waste of money. what inverter are you using? I ask because the inverter is burning power even when the refer isn't running. highdesertranger

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

[img=640x480]http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/...avi/IMG_20160604_133228_zpsfi0cvklz.jpg[/img]
And experimenting with sealing down some maps over the surface as practice for when we do get to this part of the build.

Ha, too cool.  I have had this idea for years.  I was going to use a map of the US and make a custom table for my dinete in my camper trailer, but sold it before I did it.  But have been planning on doing it in whatever my next vehicle ends up being.  Still have the map, plywood and urethane I was going to pour over it just waiting to be used!

 

[ViaVacavi]

well what's the ambient temp where you are doing the test for the refer?  before I went with the 12v refers I tried to use one of those 120v energy star refers.  all I can say that it was a total waste of money.  the thing sucked way more power than it said it would and it barely would keep the temps acceptable.  the dorm refers are meant to be in an apartment were the temp is basically regulated.  I hope you have better results but for me it was a waste of money.  what inverter are you using?  I ask because the inverter is burning power even when the refer isn't running.  highdesertranger

Here is the inverter I will be using (it has not arrived yet)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOWPQM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To be clear, I'm not just plugging the fridge into the inverter.  I'm going to convert the thermostat control loop to 12 volts.  Only when the thermostat calls for the compressor to run will power be applied to the inverter to run the compressor (via a relay) - this will keep that parasitic loss way down, as the inverter will only be powered when the compressor is called to run.  This is why I call it a pseudo-12v conversion. I'm still hoping others will chime in with their average daily amp-hour usage on their 12v fridge to help do a reasonable comparison. So far at 16.25 watt-hours per hour, it seems very, very efficient


During the test, temperatures ranged from the 90's during the day, to 60's at night.  Probably an average of around 75 degrees or so.  There have been no issues at all keeping the food cold, and we actually had to turn it down pretty far to keep from freezing things in the fridge, so it's working very very well so far

 

[ViaVacavi]

Ha, too cool.  I have had this idea for years.  I was going to use a map of the US and make a custom table for my dinete in my camper trailer, but sold it before I did it.  But have been planning on doing it in whatever my next vehicle ends up being.  Still have the map, plywood and urethane I was going to pour over it just waiting to be used!

 have to get an updated picture.  We ended up covering the entire surface and it looks incredible.  We're considering doing it to the upper cabinet doors (without staining the maps as in our tests) to give it a really strong contrast and unique look.  We just used Elmers glue and modge podge for the tests and it works very very well

 

[highdesertranger]

doesn't the invertor have to be on all the time or are you turning the inverter on only when the refer wants the power? what's the parasitic draw of the invertor couldn't find it in the specs? doesn't the surge/starting power of the refer exceed that 120 watt invertor. I don't have any hard numbers to compare, all I know is I could run 2 Engel 12v refers of my system and could not run 1 dorm refer off the same system. highdesertranger

 

[ViaVacavi]

doesn't the invertor have to be on all the time or are you turning the inverter on only when the refer wants the power?  what's the parasitic draw of the invertor couldn't find it in the specs?  doesn't the surge/starting power of the refer exceed that 120 watt invertor.  I don't have any hard numbers to compare,  all I know is I could run 2 Engel 12v refers of my system and could not run 1 dorm refer off the same system.   highdesertranger

Correct, I'm modifying the wiring of the refrigerator to only switch on the inverter when the thermostat calls for the compressor to run.  So basically instead of 120 volts going through the thermostat switch and directly to the compressor, I'm going to send 12 volts through the thermostat switch, which will terminate to a relay.  This relay will switch on the 12 volt power to the inverter, which will be hard-wired to the compressor.  Done this way, the inverter will only be powered on for about 4 hours per day based on the data I've collected so far (10 minutes per hour times 24 hours). The other 20 hours of the day, there will be absolutely zero parasitic draw at all, as the thermostat will be open circuit.

Parasitic power draw of the inverter is less than 0.5 amps per the spec sheet (about 6 watts maximum).  Judging by my 4 days of data, that should add up to a loss of about 2 amp-hours per day due to the inverter, possibly a little less.  I can easily wash out this loss with extra insulation.

I don't believe the start surge will exceed the inverter rating, though I know I'll be cutting it close.  Using a multimeter and a clamp-on to measure current, the start surge is very very quick (a fraction of a second) and I haven't seen it exceed 80 watts during the surge.  I should hook it up to my oscilloscope to have the resolution to measure it more accurately, but I haven't had the chance.  Either way, Amazon's return policy is awesome so I figured that the worse case is that I send it back and get a little bit bigger of an inverter.  This inverter is supposed to be very efficient and is excellent quality, which is why I picked it (though quite pricey for such a small rating).

Another thing I was going to do was correct the power factor to 1.0 with a parallel capacitor (measured power factor is currently 0.77).  This will improve efficiency a tiny bit as well as extend the life of the compressor motor.

 

[ahh_me2]

Benchmarking the Fridge
If any of you guys have number they can share as far as amphours per day your current fridge is using for comparison, please share.  My goal is to see how close I can get this to true 12v fridges with efficiency, and eventually post plans on how to do this type of conversion on a variety of 120v compressor fridges.

I'm still on the fence regarding efficiency, and I've been a bit lax in testing the numbers, but this is a small 120 volt fridge along side my Engel 12V compressor fridge.
I ran my kilawatt meter on the 120 volt fridge only a while back, and came up with some rather low numbers, don't remember them at the moment.
I never did run the Engel on 12 volts yet, so don't have numbers on it at this point.



Since I want to know, and others are asking similar questions, I think I'll go and do a controlled measure of the current draw over time.
I've been an electronics tech/designer all my life, so I do understand Ohm's law and how these things work...

Since I haven't finished my build, just living in it while I ponder this and other issues, I'm close to needing to decide if I should buy another Engel, as I want a fridge and a freezer, or if I can run my 120 v fridge and use the Engel as the freezer, like I have from shore power.

With your argument for changing the compressor demand loop to 12 volts, and only powering the inverter when needed, being something that had been fomenting in the back of my mind for some time, I think you've given me the push to finally pursue this line of thinking, and do a bit more actual R/D on this matter.

I figure a week long test of each ought to be good enough, but my 12 volt dc current meter is limited to 60 A/Hrs I think, so I can give you my numbers, but it might take a week or two

Thanks!

 

[ViaVacavi]

I'm still on the fence regarding efficiency, and I've been a bit lax in testing the numbers, but this is a small 120 volt fridge along side my Engel 12V compressor fridge.
I ran my kilawatt meter on the 120 volt fridge only a while back, and came up with some rather low numbers, don't remember them at the moment.
I never did run the Engel on 12 volts yet, so don't have numbers on it at this point.



Since I want to know, and others are asking similar questions, I think I'll go and do a controlled measure of the current draw over time.
I've been an electronics tech/designer all my life, so I do understand Ohm's law and how these things work...

Since I haven't finished my build, just living in it while I ponder this and other issues, I'm close to needing to decide if I should buy another Engel, as I want a fridge and a freezer, or if I can run my 120 v fridge and use the Engel as the freezer, like I have from shore power.

With your argument for changing the compressor demand loop to 12 volts, and only powering the inverter when needed, being something that had been fomenting in the back of my mind for some time, I think you've given me the push to finally pursue this line of thinking, and do a bit more actual R/D on this matter.

I figure a week long test of each ought to be good enough, but my 12 volt dc current meter is limited to 60 A/Hrs I think, so I can give you my numbers, but it might take a week or two

Thanks!

Awesome, great to hear.  We can collaborate and share numbers.  Although my test was fairly short, it showed great promise that with the right approach, a 120v fridge can be used nearly as efficiently as a true 12v fridge at a fraction of the cost.  I'll be doing my conversion this week as soon as the inverter comes in and will probably start a separate thread in the appropriate subforum.

My only concern is that the inverter may not like power being applied while it's hard-wired to the compressor.  If that's the case, I'm going to cascade a time-delay relay off of the control relay so that the inverter powers up, then the compressor will come on after the delay (maybe a second or so).  I also have some soft-start SSRs on the shelf that I can use to help if start current becomes an issue, but really on motors this small they don't suffer huge inductive surges like large motors that need to accelerate a lot of mass.  I have high hopes that everything will work as expected right off the bat

 

[ahh_me2]

My only concern is that the inverter may not like power being applied while it's hard-wired to the compressor.  If that's the case, I'm going to cascade a time-delay relay off of the control relay so that the inverter powers up, then the compressor will come on after the delay (maybe a second or so). 

Yeah, the few inverters I've used need a few seconds to power up and be ready for a power draw, so I'd be inclined to give it a good 5-10 second delay before the load is engaged.

 

[highdesertranger]

ok so the cost of the invertor + cost of refer + cost of all this other stuff involved. how much is this costing to get around the price of a 12 volt refer? also your test shows a motor that draws 60 watts to run only takes 80 watts to start are you positive about these numbers? those numbers don't seem right. frankly I am glad you are spending all this money to do this experiment it could really help some people in the long run. another question, do you believe this dorm refer will work in a off highway situation because I know some people say the dorm refers do not handle the vibration of road travel let alone off pavement. highdesertranger

 

[ViaVacavi]

ok so the cost of the invertor + cost of refer + cost of all this other stuff involved.  how much is this costing to get around the price of a 12 volt refer?  also your test shows a motor that draws 60 watts to run only takes 80 watts to start are you positive about these numbers?  those numbers don't seem right.  frankly I am glad you are spending all this money to do this experiment it could really help some people in the long run.  another question,  do you believe this dorm refer will work in a off highway situation because I know some people say the dorm refers do not handle the vibration of road travel let alone off pavement.   highdesertranger

The Fridge/Freezer combo I got was $170, though a 3.7 cuFt refrigerator with no freezer can be had for just under $100 brand new, so I'll use that figure:

Refrigerator: $100
Inverter: $106
Relay: $4
Time Delay Relay (if needed) $8

Total cost: about $220 for 3.7 CuFt.  Compared to equivalent sized 12v compressor fridges > 100 quart capacity, it's about 1/4 of the cost.  However, cheaper fridges can be found (used for example), cheaper modified sine wave inverters can be used ($30), etc and the cost could easily be pushed to around $100, making it about 1/8 of the cost of a true 12v fridge.

Regarding the question about off-highway use, I have no clue.  I don't see how it would be an issue, as the compressor is mounted on rubber shock mounts and is at the lowest point in the system, just as pretty much any other refrigerator is set up.  But your guess is as good as mine, time will tell. Maybe in the future I could give it a try and report back.

I just ordered a dedicated watt/hour meter that I'm going to mount on the fridge with the conversion so that I can share real world accurate numbers once the conversion is done.  It sounds like at least one other person now is interested in doing some testing as well, so that's great that we will get multiple results.  With some luck, hopefully this will work out and become a viable and affordable option for those that either don't have the financial means to buy a 12v compressor fridge, or want the extra space or vertical setup of a more traditional fridge.

 

[masterplumber]

Some really interesting ideas for saving both money and weight. I'm definitely watching to see how this all shakes out. Thanks for going to the trouble to document all of this - documenting and testing is something I've never been consistent at.

 

[highdesertranger]

I also appreciate you taking the time to do this. I am not trying to give you a bad time I am trying to understand. so you are at 300 bucks you need to add all your wiring, circuit protection, Anderson power poles, etc. to get a true cost. so good luck with your project and again I think it's cool that you are giving us all this info, keep it up. highdesertranger

 

[ViaVacavi]

Thanks guys

I'm a big fan of documenting things.  I've learned a ton by reading what others have done, so it feels good to return the favor. Plus it creates a permanent reference that I can always refer back to.

It can get a little expensive though. We've bought a lot of things purely for testing purposes- building materials, stains and finishes, relays and electrical test equipment, etc. Hopefully our own trials will save others time and money if doing anything similar

 

[BradKW]

Just catching up on the thread...cabinets look great! Makes me tempted to play around with some finishes on some cork roll that is laying about.

I'm very interested in the 'fridge discussion...something I was thinking about anyway because I expect to have a temp controlled space for the most part. I hope you take some pics of how it's wired up, as I don't understand:

"So basically instead of 120 volts going through the thermostat switch and directly to the compressor, I'm going to send 12 volts through the thermostat switch, which will terminate to a relay. This relay will switch on the 12 volt power to the inverter, which will be hard-wired to the compressor"

...without pictures. perhaps cartoons with thought bubbles would help too