United Airlines

[cognitive dissonance]

I don't feel a bit sorry for the CEO. He's an idiot. Seriously, how could anyone watch that video, then come up with an Orwellian term like "reaccomodate"??? Then he doubled down with an e-mail supporting the procedure and the action of employees. It took until the third day of this debacle for him to apologize, by which time (and coming on the heels of previous statements) the apology is meaningless.

Just wondering - if the board asks for his resignation and he refuses,will they call the cops to come in and slam his head against an armrest, then drag him semiconscious from the board room?

Seems a perfectly reasonable way to voluntarily reaccomodate a CEO...

 

[cognitive dissonance]

The saddest aspect of this is that United won't lose much if any business over this. They can't. There simply isn't excess capacity in the airline industry these days, so there are not meaningful numbers of open seats at any other carrier.

The only exception to this would be booking way in advance with another carrier to avoid flying the fascist skies. Perversely, that would eliminate the lowest fare passengers from many United flights, resulting in higher per-passenger revenues and overall profits. Stock prices could actually go up as a result of this!

 

[BradKW]

 

[hepcat]

I just read an interesting op-ed piece on CNN that "Legal experts say United passenger has solid legal case" which got me to thinking... what if United sued the doc for breach of contract and damages resulting from his failure to abide by the contract terms to which he agreed... you know, just the costs of the flight delay because of his failure to leave the aircraft, the cost of the cops who had to remove him, and all of the value of stock that United shareholders subsequently lost as a result of his breach of contract? And let's not forget legal expenses and incidentals to cover the costs of public relations... isn't that an interesting perspective?

Do we not bear ANY responsibility for our own actions when we've entered into a legal agreement and then fail to perform as contracted? Are we no longer responsible for our own actions and what they cost for failure to perform as contracted?

Just a different way of looking at the situation and personal responsibility.

 

[DannyB1954]

The saddest aspect of this is that United won't lose much if any business over this. They can't. There simply isn't excess capacity in the airline industry these days, so there are not meaningful numbers of open seats at any other carrier.

The only exception to this would be booking way in advance with another carrier to avoid flying the fascist skies. Perversely, that would eliminate the lowest fare passengers from many United flights, resulting in higher per-passenger revenues and overall profits. Stock prices could actually go up as a result of this!

In China they will lose a fortune. Here in the States they don't have a lot of competition to where they fly. In China many carriers go where they go.

 

[DannyB1954]

I just read an interesting op-ed piece on CNN that "Legal experts say United passenger has solid legal case" which got me to thinking... what if United sued the doc for breach of contract 

Contracts are not the last word. If a judge or jury determines that a contract is unfair, it becomes void. If one party is considered to get more out of the agreement than the other, again it can be tossed. If a judge or jury concludes that the fine print is never read and the policy is not advertised or the customer is not made aware of the policy elsewhere it becomes void.  You can not contract your human rights away. A contract that does not abide with law gets tossed. The contract that The Dr. signed says that he may be refused boarding based on the needs of the carrier. He was already boarded and seated. The contract that he signed does not apply. 

In legal matters often there are merits to both sides, then the decision is which has greater weight or merit. United failed in many ways leading to a violent end. For economic reasons, (they didn't wish to pay what the law entitles people to),  they bullied 3 people into leaving and physically violated a 4th passenger. All because of the shortcomings of their crew, (or affiliated crew). Not a jury in the world is going to favor United's position. Where United gets hurt the most is their stock value. People will vote with their feet and go elsewhere if possible. investors will realize that United will not make a profit, and the stock price will drop.

 

[Cheli]

Ok so I guess I'll add my two cents here.

I get it....people are pissed at what happened to this guy. When I first saw the video I was too, I thought it was a disgrace. But c'mon people, there is more to the story then just what the media wants to show us to turn us into a pack of hungry wolves.

Why is everyone so enraged with zero tolerance for overbooking? Shit happens, flights get overbooked all the time for many reasons and some of them beyond the airlines control. And I agree, they should have figured this out before letting everyone on the plane to begin with. But United didn't put a finger on this guy, it was federal law enforcement that dragged him off. And by the way, he voluntarily left the plane, then realized he wouldn't necessarily be on the next flight and bypassed TSA and re-boarded the plane, then started acting bizarre and flailing his arms around. Ugmmmm, he kind of broke some major Federal Homeland Security Laws there. And when you purchase a ticket to fly, it's in the fine print that they can remove you from the plane for any reason, again homeland security laws here, you don't have the right to argue and refuse to leave. As someone already mentioned here, everyone needs to get over their self-entitlement-selves.

That being said, if a Federal law enforcement officer gets on the plane to escort me off....guess what, I'm getting off the damn plane. As annoyed as I would be and maybe inconvenienced, I would get off and figure it out.

So be mad, for many reasons here, but there is more to the story than any of us know.

 

[Kathleen]

Trying to buy off witnesses.

And here I thought they were trying to compensate for everyone's trauma. (Question everything.)

Yes, that would be a likely corporate reason.

 

[Kathleen]

One more tidbit I don't see mentioned in this thread:

I watched an interview that stated the Doctor's wife was seated 3 rows behind him. They were not able to get seats together but they were on the same flight.

During the interview it was mentioned that one of the regs re bumping passengers from overbooked flights is that airlines are not supposed to separate people flying together to the same destination.

If that's true, why did they bump one member of a couple flying together?

I think forum members are continuing to write about this is because as mobile travelers we are concerned about our rights while mobile.

If this happens in the air are we going to see atrocious behavior on the ground?

As one member commented: It would have cost less for United to BUY another plane and fly the crew members to their destination.

America may forget. China not so much.

 

[Cheli]

During the interview it was mentioned that one of the regs re bumping passengers from overbooked flights is that airlines are not supposed to separate people flying together to the same destination.

If that's true, why did they bump one member of a couple flying together?

They didn't bump one member of a couple flying together, they both volunteered their seat and got off the plane.  When the doctor got off and realized that they weren't guaranteed a seat on the "next flight" out, he freaked out and re-boarded the plane and refused to get off.  Yeah, he broke Federal Homeland Security laws and THAT is when federal law enforcement had to board the plane to remove the man who was pulling a tantrum.  United personnel had backed off at this point and had nothing to do with the manhandling of him.

 

[John61CT]

Yes bottom line is obey flight staff instructions.

But bigger goal here is to end ALL involuntary bumps.

Airline should be REQUIRED to keep upping the rewards until they get enough volunteers, check made out on the spot not vouchers.

With effective enforcement by huge fines, rewards for victims reporting.

Stand ready to be amazed how quickly sophisticated AI improves their seat allocation systems, overbooking rates plummet and those "friendly skies" start living up to the slogan.

And give that CEO the bum's rush.

 

[StarEcho]

Where are you hearing this Cheli? All the news outlets are saying that he was dragged off the plane and then managed to get away from the people dragging him off the plane and ran back onto the plane, bloodied and seemingly dazed, repeating "I have to get home" over and over. There is actually a video of that. So he reboarded the plane twice? I just googled it and I can't find your story anywhere. I'm not saying that you're wrong, mind you. Just wondering where you got your info. Thanks.

 

[Ballenxj]

  Yeah, he broke Federal Homeland Security laws and THAT is when federal law enforcement had to board the plane to remove the man who was pulling a tantrum.  United personnel had backed off at this point and had nothing to do with the manhandling of him.

If this is true, then United will be found without liability for this. It was totally out of their hands at that point.

 

[Cheli]

Where are you hearing this Cheli?  All the news outlets are saying that he was dragged off the plane and then managed to get away from the people dragging him off the plane and ran back onto the plane, bloodied and seemingly dazed, repeating "I have to get home" over and over.  There is actually a video of that.  So he reboarded the plane twice?  I just googled it and I can't find your story anywhere.  I'm not saying that you're wrong, mind you.  Just wondering where you got your info.  Thanks.

Yes I saw the video, I think most everyone has.  hahaha   I read it somewhere, darnit let me see if I can go find it again.

 

[hepcat]

I think forum members are continuing to write about this is because as mobile travelers we are concerned about our rights while mobile.

Forum members, like the general public, are writing about this because they're outraged that a poor, innocent "any man" traveler was physically and brutally removed from his "rightful" seat on an airliner by the big bad heartless corporate entity.  The poor "any man" traveler could have been any one of us and we identify with him...  hence the outrage, fear, and loathing.  An corporations aren't warm an fuzzy, so they're the perfect entity to heap derision on for their heartlessness.

Unfortunately, the facts don't bear out the reason for the outrage quite as cleanly as the public might like, and the "any man" isn't entirely blameless; nor is the "big, bad, heartless corporation" entirely wrong.

It'll all come out in the wash.  United will settle a lawsuit out of court and change some rule or other to placate the pubic and in a few months this will be just another flash in the pan.  Meanwhile we 'frogs' are beginning to boil in the pan because the heat on us continues to be turned up by the folks who control the burner in DC.

It's amazing what we choose to be outraged about and what we ignore.

 

[John61CT]

Doesn't have to be that way, if enough people exercise their responsibilities as citizens in a sustained way, the government will start to give a higher priority to our interests as opposed to corp Nth degree of profits.

Resignation and apathy are the real enemy.

 

[Cheli]

Where are you hearing this Cheli?  All the news outlets are saying that he was dragged off the plane and then managed to get away from the people dragging him off the plane and ran back onto the plane, bloodied and seemingly dazed, repeating "I have to get home" over and over.  There is actually a video of that.  So he reboarded the plane twice?  I just googled it and I can't find your story anywhere.  I'm not saying that you're wrong, mind you.  Just wondering where you got your info.  Thanks.

Yes I saw the video, I think most everyone has.  hahaha   I read it somewhere, darnit let me see if I can go find it again.

Ok I apologize, I messed up what I read.  So he and his wife volunteered their seats and then found out the next flight wasn't for several days later so he sat back down and refused to get off the plane.  The United personnel repeatedly asked him to leave and he refused, so they called in law enforcement who took over.  He re-boarded the plane after he was dragged off, so no he didn't re-baord it twice.  Again, sorry I misread something somewhere.

But still, when you purchase a ticket you agree to their terms which includes the fact that they can remove you from the plane for any reason.  And as pissed off and inconvenienced it would make me, if I was approached by federal law enforcement I would get off the damn plane and raise holy hell to fix it off the plane.  Did he really think it was going to work out in his favor?  They repeatedly asked him to leave, he refuses, so they're going to say "oh ok, that's fine.  let's take off now, have a nice flight".  Seriously.

And I am NOT justifying what happened at all, it was horrific and unacceptable.  We have become a society of people who think they can do whatever they want just because they want to, or don't want to in this case.  Life isn't fair, shitty things happen, but you put your big boy pants on and figure things out and move on.

 

[Gunny]

Almost daily we, the great unwashed, are shown examples of the lack of respect people show one another. The guy should have just got up and left, it's a no-win situation and as an educated man he should know this.

For many years I followed orders as directed and expected the orders I gave to be followed. Some orders were putting people in harms way, others were for some mundane reason but still needed to be done. In 23 years I wrote up three Marines and they got Non-Judicial Punishment. What I don't get is why Law Enforcement is so quick to resort to violence. I realize the videos we see are selected and shown to get attention, ratings or clicks on Youtube but my last few contacts with police have been unpleasant. One as a bystander and one when I was stopped at 3 am riding my damn mobility scooter. There seems to be an attitude almost trying to provoke an argument.

Hepcat is right, this will fade away in a day or so and the next big thing will take its place and we will get all indignant about whatever it is and do nothing about it.

Take away Civil Service from our government workers and police and watch things change. Won't happen but it should.

Rob

 

[StarEcho]

Here's an interesting article that pretty much explains why this happening causes such "outrage" among the "masses".

https://ethicsalarms.com/2017/04/13...on-the-united-flight-3411-ethics-train-wreck/

The title of the article is "More Ethics Observations On The United Flight 3411 Ethics Train Wreck"

The author rehashes the story with an ethics mindset.   The part that stuck me the most was the reporting of this incident focused on the whole "denied boarding" scenario, instead of what the situation actually was, which was a denial of transport.  Most if not all of the news outlets focused on the rules for being denied boarding and pretty much implied that the doctor was wrong.  Actually, he was not denied boarding.  He was removed from the plane AFTER boarding.  The rules once you are boarded are pretty clear as to when they can remove you, and none of those applied to this doctor.  EXCEPT for the purposely vague phrase which amounts to: whenever we want.

The why this is so upsetting to most of us is that most of us figured if we made it onto the plane, sat in our seat, put our carry-ons into the overhead compartments, and started reading our magazine or whatever, that we were going to get where we were going.  Now it has been forcibly brought home to us that the airlines can do WHATEVER they want to us, WHENEVER they want to and we are cautioned and expected to be grateful for it.

Is this bowing down to the POWERS THAT BE (PTB) something that got more pronounced after 9/11?  How can ANY of us think that it's OKAY for an airline to drag anyone off a plane AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN SEATED and for no other reason than they wanted the seat for an employee of theirs?  It boggles my mind.  It really does.

 

[hepcat]

 What I don't get is why Law Enforcement is so quick to resort to violence. I realize the videos we see are selected and shown to get attention, ratings or clicks on Youtube but my last few contacts with police have been unpleasant. 

Take away Civil Service from our government workers and police and watch things change. Won't happen but it should.

Rob

Rob, Civil Service is their only protection from being maliciously and disproportionately dumped on by public outrage; especially in incidents like this.

Cops are in a no-win situation...  they're being injured and murdered at an unprecedented rate by citizens who are all 'special snowflakes' and who don't believe that they have to follow the laws that the rest of us do.  Cops have every right to protect themselves from harm on the job, and as more and more citizens resort to unreasonable and/or violent behavior toward cops, cops (being humans) will naturally have shorter and shorter fuses, and take less and less nonsense from them.  In this case, when they've spent ten minutes trying to reason with the guy, and he's not reasonable, at some point you take action to fix the problem.  Again whether the cops in this case handled it appropriately will be determined by their investigation...

That said, much of the behavior I see from cops that I consider to be inappropriate is the failure of supervision; not taking an adequate role in ensuring professionalism among their officers.  Cops perform to the expectations of the administration.  If the administration is lax, so then are the cops.  That part of law enforcement is no different than the Marine Corps.  If you've got a sloppy Company, it's because you've got a sloppy Company Commander.