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hepcat said:
You're right, we have no personal contact at all, let me first say that I recognize you to be a master wordsmith, and I congratulate you on your ability to make your points; errant though they may be.

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to address each of your responses, but I'll synopsize my reply for you. For a guy who has so little time, it's impressive that you managed to put up two lengthy posts back to back.

 - snip -

Your use of the word "predator" in describing law enforcement management is perfectly illustrative of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's essay "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which describes very accurately the kind of people who choose to go into the military and law enforcement, and how (and the why of that "how") they become who they are.  That essay is actually an excerpt from a book Grossman co-authored. I've read that book, still have it in a box somewhere...

Grossman named his company Killology. He makes a handsome living supporting the trend toward hair trigger policing, under the new mantra of officer safety.

I heard through the grapevine that Grossman lectured in Las Vegas, and that one of the cops who shot Erik was in attendance. I emailed Grossman, told him the story, gave him Erik's bio (West Point grad, master's degree after the Army, admired by almost everyone, etc.) and asked him if he was entirely comfortable instilling and justifying mindset that led to Erik's death.

He didn't respond.

And, to set the record straight, I was not referring to Grossman twisted interpretation of the relationship between the people and the government. (WE are not sheep.) What actually came to mind was Bertrand de Juvenal's brilliant observation that "a nation of sheep must, in time, beget a government of wolves."

Those aviation security thugs in the video were never sheepdogs in their lives. They're wolves.
 
 - snip -

And last, your broad statement about the dishonesty and corruption is more than an unfounded indictment, it is the statement of an anarchist. LOL

 - snip -

And yes, what we're seeing today IS symptomatic of many failures on our parts and failures of leadership...Thanks for admitting that! a lack of personal integrity by many;Yep. the world being run for profit (wars included... Raytheon will be getting a new $60million order for Tomahawk missiles soon,) Disgusting, but true. Tip of the iceberg, actually. and a total lack of empathy for anyone who espouses a different point of view.  Speaking of empathy, here's a teachable moment: When I bemoan the corruption, you call me an anarchist. When agree with me later in the same post, what does that make you?

I'd enjoy continuing this offline, hepcat, and I suspect I'd enjoy meeting you if the opportunity arose.  While pertinent to the OP and the vandwelling community, I don't think it's appropriate to go any further here. Thanks though, and feel free to PM if you wish!

Now back to live coverage of the UAL follies!

Best,

cd

 
Blanch said:
Hepcat. That is an excellent article, and worth the read.
<-------->
He offered to open a substation in the vicinity to get me some clean electric power ( some medical equipment won't run on 12 volt ). I managed on my own and thanked him for the offer. He called the next day to be certain I was still ok. That officer was looking after me in a way I never expected. He was clearly a sheepdog.
That officer clearly was concerned, proving they are not all bad.
The ditty hepcat posted was indeed good, and  pretty true. I've read it before, but it's always good to read again.
An instructor of mine was always saying you are in charge of your future. You have the choice of being either good, or bad.
 
I guess this is going to be a rant, but it ties in because in the airplane video one Officer was the aggressor while the other two just watched. I used to be biased for LE, but what my eyes see leaves me a bit distrustful. I have the greatest distaste for their gang or brotherhood mentality otherwise refereed to as a code of silence. In all of the videos that I have seen where the public has been victimized by those sworn to protect, one Cop will be beating the life out of someone for no reason and the others stand there and watch. In NONE of their reports do they document the mistreatment by the one officer. SOMETIMES when the video surfaces the one LEO is disciplined, but I have never seen his accomplices held to task.

If a group of people commit a felony and someone is killed, each one of them is held responsible for the death. Not so with the Police. If there is a video, the one cop may be charged, but never the group. No video, no charges, we take the Officers word. They wouldn't lie to cover there ass would they? They also are never charged with trying to cover it up to assist their "fellow Officer". Ever wonder why Police object to being filmed? Sometimes the photographer is threatened with laws that don't exist. Ever hear of that Cop being prosecuted for threatening an arrest for breaking a law that doesn't exist? There is a reason people are more eager to film police. It has been proven that they can not be trusted to tell the truth.

I have personal experience with a bad guy that was considered one of theirs, (they worked in the DA's office), their house guest committed a minor crime, (trespassing on a property looking for something to steal), and when the Sargent showed up he intimidated the victim and witness into backing down. Later the DA guy got busted for giving sensitive info to criminals in exchange for drugs and sex. Odd that when it was one of theirs in trouble, three cars showed up immediately. When my other neighbor called because the drug dealer next door threatened him and his kids it took hours for one car to come. Besides calling LE he called me. I was there in minutes, the Police hours. The doper wasn't so bold when the yard next door had a bunch of armed neighbors in it. We eventually got that dope house shut down, but it wasn't because of a lot of Police support.

In the Columbine shooting incident, the Police waited outside the school for the shooting to stop before they went in. How many children died while they "assessed" the situation? Like I mentioned earlier in Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago, a guy went on a transit bus and shot two people. One died, one was just injured. The shooter stayed on the bus. Eventually Swat and the rest of the department surrounded the bus. It was unclear if there were any hostages on the bus. They couldn't lob in a hand grenade or anything that might harm a hostage, so they just waited outside for HOURS for the guy to surrender. Lets wait to see if he kills someone else before we do anything.

It used to be our public servants were held to a higher standard, now they seem to be exempt from any kind of standard.
 
The airport security officers, while required to meet minimum police standards and go through academy training, are not in fact police, and cannot carry guns or arrest people.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, responsible for the major airports in the New York area, sent out a new directive Friday noting that their officers would not assist in removing a passenger in an overbooking situation.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-airport-security-under-fire-over-united-fiasco-171248561.html
 
Just one of many recent articles about Chicago Aviation officers:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/removal-united-passenger-shines-light-airport-police-46790388

In January they were ordered to stop wearing "Police" jackets and to identify themselves as "Security". None of the officers have complied.

They do go through some academy training, but not to the same level as actual Chicago Police cadets.

The Aviation Police were started when Mayor Daley's chief bodyguard wanted to retire and start an airport security force, hiring only people with city hall connections.

Actual law enforcement at Chicago airports is by the many officers of the Chicago Police Department stationed at the airports.
 
bonvanroulez said:
Just one of many recent articles about Chicago Aviation officers:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/removal-united-passenger-shines-light-airport-police-46790388

In January they were ordered to stop wearing "Police" jackets and to identify themselves as "Security". None of the officers have complied.

They do go through some academy training, but not to the same level as actual Chicago Police cadets.

The Aviation Police were started when Mayor Daley's chief bodyguard wanted to retire and start an airport security force, hiring only people with city hall connections.

Sounds like Massachusetts where the saying goes "After a nationwide search to fill the position, it turned out the best candidate was .......(name the politician)'s own brother in law after all.

I wonder what all those 80,000 a year toll takers are doing now that it's all Easypass. Probably got promotions. Maybe even transit cops now.
 
cognitive dissonance said:
I won't belabor this, but will I flatly state that paramilitary police are incompatible with individual liberty and any semblance of rule of law.

I want to thank Bob for allowing this thread to continue. I'm sure he doesn't like a bunch of the posts here, including mine.

So, thanks Bob!

cd

Police are and always have been by their nature, a paramilitary organization.  That's not the problem.  It's when the police use military equipment and tactics without the necessary discipline that they become a problem.

Well said otherwise. 

And, yes... thanks to the staff and Bob.  I think this IS important to a lot of folks here.
 
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-delta-volunteer-offer-20170414-story.html

[font=Georgia,]Delta OKs offers of up to $9,950 to flyers who give up seats[/font]

[font=Georgia,][font=Georgia,]Delta is letting employees offer customers nearly $10,000 in compensation to give up seats on overbooked flights, hoping to avoid an uproar like the one that erupted at United after a passenger was dragged off a jet.[/font]
[/font]

[font=Georgia,]United is taking steps too. It will require employees seeking a seat on a plane to book it at least an hour before departure, a policy that might have prevented last Sunday's confrontation.[/font]

[font=Georgia,]Those and other changes show airlines are scrambling to respond to a public-relations nightmare — the video showing airport officers violently yanking and dragging 69-year-old David Dao from his seat on a sold-out United Express flight.[/font]
[font=Georgia,][font=Georgia,]Dao and three others were ordered off the plane after four airline employees showed up at the last minute and demanded seats so they could be in place to operate a flight the next day in Louisville, Kentucky.[/font][/font]
 
GotSmart said:
[font=Georgia,][font=Georgia,]Dao and three others were ordered off the plane after four airline employees showed up at the last minute and demanded seats so they could be in place to operate a flight the next day in Louisville, Kentucky.[/font][/font]

To me, these tardy employee's are at the root of the problem here, and should probably be fired. Of course their firing is not going to fix the problem that they caused. I'm betting that after the dust settles, they will find that other employee's were booting passengers to try to cover for these late running employee's.
 
Airline staff get called up and are told where to get to by scheduling operations.

Don't lay this on individual employees, it is completely a process/procedures issue and 100% management's responsibility in setting priorities.

Yes, getting those four staff on board was critical to whether a flight could go or not.

All they had to do was keep offering more money, hotel vouchers etc incentives for volunteers, be transparent and honest, treat their customers with respect.

They didn't have those systems, procedures, training in place.

Management.

Fact that the CEO's first response was:

‘‘Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this’’

"While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.’’

says it all.
 
Ballenxj said:
To me, these tardy employee's are at the root of the problem here, and should probably be fired.

A little harsh, brother - there could have been all kinds of reasons why they were late.  They might have come in on another flight that was late, for instance. Losing your livelihood.........they had no way to know what it would all cause. Sometimes the worst things happen beyond our control.
 
IanC said:
A little harsh, brother - there could have been all kinds of reasons why they were late.  They might have come in on another flight that was late, for instance. Losing your livelihood.........they had no way to know what it would all cause. Sometimes the worst things happen beyond our control.

I may be wrong, but I thought I had read somewhere that they were late from being hung over? If anybody knows for sure, I'd be interested in hearing why they were late?
 
Ballenxj said:
I may be wrong, but I thought I had read somewhere that they were late from being hung over? If anybody knows for sure, I'd be interested in hearing why they were late?


They overslept is what I keep reading. Overslept? Not a very adult behavior IMHO.

I read they were booked on an earlier flight and missed it. If this is true then their unprofessional behavior was the first domino to drop and set this mess in motion.

I don't know about the work ethic of others on this forum, but during my career I never showed up late and , until I had an illness that eventually ended in my being disabled, I seldom missed a day of work by calling in sick.


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I agree that this really is a management problem, good customer service is a top down kind of thing. All of the staff at airlines with customer service as a big part of the job will be regularly abused by passengers. About policies that outside of their control. However management at the airline can make customer service a priority. it just costs money although, imho it is an investment worth making.

First they can make sure that those workers are paid well. They also need to be treated well so they feel invested in the success of the company. You want employees who want the customers to be happy. Southwest Airlines is famous for taking this approach and have a deservedly good reputation for good customer service to show for it.

Also important is they need to empower their employees to actually fix things. They need an arsonal of vouchers and upgrades. They also need to be able to offer things like refunds and in the case of bumping, a substantial amount hopefully sufficient to get vonunteers. I cannot imagine not finding four people on that plane unwilling to get off for a grand + a limo ride to Louisville. They should be allowed to get creative in the solutions they can offer.

Delta is on the right track with this. The last time I flew with them, my flight was delayed by weather. They brought out a cart with drinks and snacks. It was brilliant! Even if they were paying Costco prices, they didnt have more than $100 on that cart. But it made a noticeable change in the vibe of the hundred people waiting at the gate. There was much less impatience in the air. If they had to, they could have bumped folks for a hotel voucher and some miles.
 
Blanch said:
They overslept is what I keep reading. Overslept? Not a very adult behavior IMHO.

I read they were booked on an earlier flight and missed it. If this is true then their unprofessional behavior was the first domino to drop and set this mess in motion.

I don't know about the work ethic of others on this forum, but during my career I never showed up late and , until I had an illness that eventually ended in my being disabled, I seldom missed a day of work by calling in sick.
OK, I thought it was something like that. Over slept, and being hung over are dangerously close in my book.
I agree with your work ethics. Everybody should have those, and I know I did. I was always a bit early. I've always said that a person should give themselves enough extra time to make it on time. Now because of their tardy behavior, other people are paying the price.
 
Okay, we're going around in circles and far afield now. Everyone has had their say, it's time to move on to something else.

Thread closed.
 
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