slynne
Well-known member
hepcat said:slynne... "due to high pay..." and "no shortage of police officers?"
Ok, I suspect you're out of touch with the reality of hiring for police departments right now. Most of the major cities are running from 15% to 30% below their authorized staffing levels right now because they don't have enough qualified applicants to hire, and their recruiting efforts aren't yielding applicants either. San Diego PD, for example, is the lowest-paid major police department in the country... history repeats itself.
And cops DO use their authority in non-violent ways... and in this case it was my understanding that the two officers talked to the doc for 10 minutes while he steadfastly refused to leave as directed. What then do you suggest they do? Walk away or "use that amount of force necessary to overcome the resistance offered" as is their duty under law to effect an arrest, when the suspect resists?
Take a minute to read my post above as well... perhaps it'll explain a concept for you that you're not fully in tune with...
I admit that I am a bit out of touch with recent situations but fwiw, I usually dismiss public sector shortages as essentially being the same thing as not paying enough. labor shortage = wages too low. If there indeed are police shortages it means that wages are too low or the qualifications asked for are too high or both. I don't want to get into the politics of it but generally in this country, you see situations were government bodies add requirements and hoops to jump through which raise the barriers of entry into the profession without also raising wages. In Michigan, we are about to have a teacher crisis because of this. I admit that I am basing my opinion of the high pay too from someone close to me who is an expert in public sector labor relations but who has been retired for a few years.
I have read your previous comment (which I found to be very thoughtful btw) . Mostly I think that I am talking about what-should-be and you are talking about what-is. Generally, though, my point is that one way we move from what-is to what-should-be is through civil disobedience. I agree with you from a practical stand point that treating police officers with respect and complying with their orders is the way to go if one's goal is to not be beaten up or arrested. However, if change is one’s objective, then what the doctor did was the way to go even if it does come with real risks including dealing with police officers who might choose an amount of force greater than what is necessary to overcome the resistance offered along with of course, an arrest and all that comes with that.
As for what the police officers should have done? I generally feel that any violence except in cases where there is a threat to themselves or others is uncalled for. I agree that police officers should “use that amount of force necessary to overcome the resistance offered” but unless the resistance is violent or threatening, the force necessary to overcome the resistance need not be violent. As I said earlier, they could have just waited the guy out. He wouldn’t sit in the seat forever. All they needed to do is stand there calmly telling him to leave until he did, even if it took hours but most likely it would not have. They could have calmly explained the consequences of his actions to him until he complied. If it were me, I would probably have tried to make him sympathetic to *me* by saying things like “come on, sir. Give me a break. I have to remove you from this flight. I cannot leave until you comply. No one else can either. Please give all of these other passengers a break too. I am not the airline and I am sorry they are treating you this way. Let’s go talk about it more in the terminal, etc etc” You would be surprised at how effective that approach is especially in a situation where someone has been made to feel helpless. Making them feel even more helpless doesn't seem like the best approach. And maybe they tried it but 10 minutes is a very short time before resorting to violence.
If the police had other, more pressing, obligations such as a robbery in progress, they can leave and attend to those obligations. It is not an acceptable excuse to resort to violence imho. The good news though is that as a species we really are progressing and are much less violent than we ever have been.