Just Facts: Transits, ProMasters and Cargos

[Jack]

While I'm saving for a van, it doesn't hurt to figure out which one I'd really love to have.  As someone without any experience with them, I can see the perceived/implied pros and cons by watching a video but I'm smart enough to know that videos don't always equate to facts.  So, as an average, non-mechanical, 52 year old man going solo, I need your help to see past the trust fund budgets, the glitz, the video editing, and the personality types (from yuppies to the gritty grunts).  I'm open to hearing everyone's personal opinions but, most of all, I'd like to know the actual facts or reputations of these vehicles so I have a firm foundation to make the best decision for me.


My #1 Top Priority in a full-time van of any kind is reliability, then MPG, then comfort.  I intend to learn basic maintenance (like oil changes) but also intend on keeping my vehicle as well-maintained as possible.  I'm 52 and going full-time, so I'd like my first vehicle to also be my last (or at least very long term) vehicle.

That said, what are the pros and cons of Transits, ProMasters, Cargo Vans when it comes to:

Driving.  How do each of these handle in all kinds of terrain and weather.  At least in the beginning, I want to travel a lot, from the deserts to the mountains, to the forests and prairies.  How do each of these vehicles drive?  How are they in cold, heat, elevation, snow, rain, and wind?

Maintenance.  How are each of their reliability records?  I understand that it's impossible to give a concrete, 100% accurate answer given all the countless variables.  But, based on facts alone, each does have a reputation, yes?  Basically, A) How often are each "known" to have issues?  B) How easy/difficult is it (generally) to find a mechanic that can work on them and have the parts?  And C) How expensive are they to repair and keep well maintained in general?

Parking.  What are the pros and cons of each when it comes to parking?  (Mostly in regards to blending in and going undisturbed/unnoticed.)  Do they all boondock off the beaten path well?  Are ProMasters and Transits going to garner unwanted attention in cities or Walmart parking lots?

Other.  Anything other considerations you think I'm missing?  Any other vehicles I should be considering that you think would better fit my needs?   All advice is be greatly appreciated!

I could go Cargo van.  I'm not opposed to it.  Being smaller, it's potential for drawing less attention is attractive to this old hermit.  Still, at my advancing age, I'd like the convenience of having a small, enclosed wet room to shower in with a Nature's Head toilet instead of using a bag of water heated by the sun attached to a kitchen sprayer hose outside.  (Or using a camping toilet.)  While I have no intention of going gritty and 100% basic, I also don't need the lap of luxury.  But, I'm willing to pay more upfront IF it will help keep me in the same vehicle for a very long time.

I'm simply looking for the best long term, sustainable vehicle for me.  But, I don't know anything about trucks and their maintenance to help me make the right decision.  Given the expense, I don't want to blow it and have to start all over again.

 

[frater secessus]

Sounds like you might be a good candidate for a Nissan NV2500. Highest ground clearance, v8 available, strongest frame, lowest cost new, longest (5yr) warranty.

The smallest interior of the factory high-tops, but plenty of standing room. If you would be happy in a domestic cargo I think you'd be overjoyed by this beast.

I've started a comparison of popular vans that may help.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Jack]

Sounds like you might be a good candidate for a Nissan NV2500.  Highest ground clearance, v8 available, strongest frame, lowest cost new, longest (5yr) warranty....

I've started a comparison of popular vans that may help.  

Thanks for responding.  I've seen a couple videos of that vehicle.  They didn't jump out at me but I haven't ruled them out.  I'm interested in checking out your comparisons, though!  Thanks again!

ETA:  Wow!  From what I can tell, if it's all accurate information, those comparison charts are extremely helpful!  Even if they're just the very basics, they gives me a great reference to start with!  Thanks heaps!

I'd still like to know a bit more specifically how each of those vehicles compares to the specific information/questions I listed though, if anyone can help with that.

 

[Dgorila1]

I think that they will all be similar in warranty, reliability, availability of service, and cost since you are buying new. I’m focusing on the Transit high top because I’m 6’4” tall and want the headroom. I also want a shower/toilet room. The class b manufacturers build on all these models so you can get an idea of layouts and design by visiting rv dealers and shows to check them out.

 

[frater secessus]

The stats generally have clickable footnotes to where I got the info. I encourage folks to let me know where I have made mistakes.

Rant follows: IMO, fitness of the various platforms for the listed purposes is a matter of some discussion (ie, holy war), and has more to do with personal biases, what their dad drove, their first vehicle in high school, and kneejerk reactions than anything objective ("Found on Road Dead, har har har!" or "I'd NEVER buy a [fill in the blank]!!!!!!!', or "gotta have a700hp Hellcat engine or you'll never pass anyone going 135mph up a mountain!") People believe what they want to believe and buy what they want to buy. You'll have to hop into each one, and drive the ones that are interesting. Then research known issues and see if you can live with or alter them.

Having said that: I'd guess that all new platforms will have good reliability, with the NV2500 maybe somewhat better. All will be easily repairable by mechanics with the exception of Sprinters; Mercedes mechanics are pricey and far-between. The others are repaired at normal dealers.

Used van reliability is likely a function of prior use and maintenance rather than make/model.

As far as stealth parking, Transits, Sprinters, and Promasters are commonly used by businesses. Even high tops don't stick out if they are white. No one has ever noticed my solar panels unless I point them out. More important to parking in my experience is that RWB (regular wheel base) and LWB (long wheel base) vans usually fit in a normal slot while extended body versions generally don't. And they also can drag their rear bumpers in dips.

If you don't have to buy now, you will see every possible setup in action at the next RTR. Super friendly and everyone is willing to show you what they like/dislike about their camper, what parts of their build will remain, what will change, etc.

I documented some of my process of choosing a camper platform in case it is any use.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[John61CT]

And let me take this opportunity to commend our Frater for his tremendous and generous work for the community.

Thank you, from all of us who benefit from your contributions.

 

[Jack]

 People believe what they want to believe and buy what they want to buy. You'll have to hop into each one, and drive the ones that are interesting. Then research known issues and see if you can live with or alter them. 

Thanks very much, Frater.  I came to the same conclusion recently.  I've printed out your posts and your information for future help... greatly appreciated!

 

[Jack]

As far as stealth parking, Transits, Sprinters, and Promasters are commonly used by businesses.  Even high tops don't stick out if they are white.  No one has ever noticed my solar panels unless I point them out.   More important to parking in my experience is that RWB (regular wheel base) and LWB (long wheel base) vans usually fit in a normal slot while extended body versions generally don't.  And they also can drag their rear bumpers in dips.

This paragraph specifically helped me to relax a bit.  I was concerned because I'm looking at going full-time and long-term!  I'd like to do this one vehicle and not have to get a new one in a year or three.  I want as reliable a vehicle as possible when it's properly cared for along the way.  I've ruled out Sprinters based on the expense and difficulty of getting them maintained.  Everything I hear about Transits is conflicting.  I'm leaning towards the ProMaster and a Chevy Express Cargo Van because I want the ability to drive off the beaten path without too much difficulty.  Recommendations there?

 

[Jack]

I documented some of my process of choosing a camper platform in case it is any use.  

Boy was this ever helpful!  I'm right there with you on about 95% of it!  You've reassured me that I'm not asking too much out of a vehicle, that I'm on the right track, and that, even though I'm new to this, I can trust my instincts.  

How is a PV Install different from "regular" solar panels?  (Sorry, I know nothing about solar... right now anyway.)

Why "NO SLIDES!" ?
And why a fiberglass roof?


What are the advantages to these things that I'm not seeing?

 

[Jack]

I have to admit, the more I consider this life, the more two vehicles stand out the most... for completely different reasons.

ProMaster:  More room for more comfortable ammenities, especially a shower and the ability to stand up fully.  I could see myself living long term in a well taken care of ProMaster build and not want for anything else.

A regular ol' van:  What appeals to me about them is the exact opposite reason for why I like the ProMaster.  The sheer simplicity.  A simple kitchen sink stand made of a bowl that drains right into a 5 gallon gray water bottle and a 5 gallon clean water bottle next to it, operated by a dolphin pump.  No electricity needed.  As for a stove, a simple propane gas stove that takes up no more room than a laptop.  Again no electricity.  That simple of a kitchen would free up a lot of space in the van, too, as well as not make you dependent on electricity for the basic necessities.  Should a SHTF situation arise, you're already acclimated to a very simple lifestyle.

I'm just glad I'm thinking about all of this far enough in advance to really figure out which direction I want to go with van life.  The one thing I know for sure, though, is that the van life is for me.

 

[Matlock]

I am always second guessing myself regarding vehicle type. There are too many trade-offs. I do a little off road driving.

Promaster, unfortunately the V6 is largest engine and only available in front wheel drive ....but it has huge interior. Would be great if not for the first two items.

Nissan NV 2500-3500 can get a V8, cab is very nice, but.. Can't get a longer wheel base. Just to short, way to short or it would be #1 hands down.

Transit, largest cargo area but reported tranny problems.

Last is what I bought in the best bang for my buck department. A Uhaul box van. No stealth intended..... I've been feeling like I've neglected the ol' box so this afternoon took some time for an oil/filter change. I think she feels better now and so do I.

 

[Nissi]

We have the Nissan Cargo Van, right now the NV2500.  We should have gotten the 1-ton: NV3500.    LOVE this van.
This is an American van.  Side drivers windows are FULL size. Not divided into two parts.  Unlike some E-model Fords, and
other companies, the leg room on both driver and passenger sides are HUGE.  No engine sticking back into the cab area.
Very comfortable for me whichever side I am sitting on.  The engine compartment is forward of the firewall, therefore the
cargo area is a bit shorter.  But...we have two twin beds, a shower, porta-potti, sink counter, drawers/shelves, two Whynter
12v Frig/Freezers.  I drive this van most of the time.  Take it shopping, out birding/photography on the highways, side roads,
and not afraid to go into town.  It is basically the size of a full size pickup with the advantage of being able to stand and walk
around.  I have everything I need with me, and even room to haul building materials we might need:  plywood, two by 4's or...

We have the V6 and have lots of power. Never a problem.  We maintain the vehicle ourselves with regular oil changes.......etc
The NV2500 comes in both the V6 & V8 model.  The NV3500, I believe, only comes in the V8 (?)  

We have 400 watts solar on the roof and 3/ 235amp batteries...
An awning, and ladder on the rear...

All metal body.

Love this vehicle, and I am a 71 year old female...

 

[Jack]

Matlock:  My thoughts exactly.  Thankfully, I have plenty of time to research and examine the vehicles before I'm ready to buy.  Tonight, at my local grocery store, I saw a Sprinter 2500 and a ProMaster 3500.  The guys using them were kind enough to spend some time to talk to me about them and let me look inside.  (Too full to go inside.)  This was great to see them side-by-side and, finally, "in person" other than just passing by them on the street.  (Tons of all of them here in Minneapolis!)  

The Sprinter, looks-wise, was tempting!  Nice and tall with lots of room!  The owner said it's the smoothest ride.  But, since I want to go to a lot of rural places, it rules out the Sprinter because it's harder to find mechanics to work on it, and is just too expensive to fix.  The owner actually advised me not to go with the ProMaster!  He said he's on his second one and the transmissions aren't good.  He also said they ride choppy and have a tendency to lurch.  (I know nothing about mechanics so I just listened and figured I'd research it to see if it was a consensus.)  He recommended the Transit.  But he did say that his ProMaster gets 18-20 mpg.  I like that!  But he didn't like that it was front wheel drive.  I thought that was odd because I heard front wheel drive is better than rear wheel drive.  Again, I need to learn more.  I'd like to see the Rocky Mountains, so I need to figure out which is best for that, too.

And I'm with you on the Nissan NV.  Hands down first choice if it weren't for the tiny living space.  Still, I'm not ruling it out completely until I can see them in person.  



Nissi:  That's a pretty glowing review for the Nissan NV!  I appreciate you taking the time to post!  I'll be checking them out for sure!  Your set-up sounds great!  Any chance you have some pictures you could post?!

 

[frater secessus]

How is a PV Install different from "regular" solar panels?  (Sorry, I know nothing about solar... right now anyway.)

Why "NO SLIDES!" ?
And why a fiberglass roof?

PV == photovoltaic (ie, solar) panels.  Same thing. 

No slides is a partly practical and partly personal.  Slides are to RVs as icemakers are to freezers:  neat but the most likely to fail.  You also can't leave in a moment if security requires it. And if it gets stuck out in the extended position you are staying put until it gets retracted.  And they add weight, expense, and complexity.   The personal part is more bias/anecdotal and sharing it would be a disservice to responsible slide folk. 

The fiberglass roof was a remnant of my research on Class C RVs and trailers.  If I chose one of those I didn't want to spend my retirement patching and/or replacing a rubber roof.    I've changed that article to reflect both the PV and fiberglass roof issues. 

> I'm just glad I'm thinking about all of this far enough in advance to really figure out which direction I want to go with van life.

IMO you're doing it right. 

 

[closeanuf]

I may have missed something, are you buying new or used?  How much do you plan to spend?  I think that would enter into my decision.

 

[Jack]

No slides is a partly practical and partly personal.

Just to make sure I'm on the same page, are you talking about the big, sliding side door, and that you prefer the two barn doors instead?  That's exactly what I'm wanting.  ProMasters don't make that option though, do they?  I don't like the sliding door because the inside of the door is wasted space, in my opinion.  I like the barn doors so you can have a simple kitchen, for example. A fold down counter and storage for a small propane cooker means you can cook inside, or open the door and cook outside.  I've seen builds where there was a sink on the other door.  This layout (just as an example) allowed the rest of the interior to be freed up for other things.  I'm not sure what you could do to utilize the inside of a sliding door that's impossible to get to when the door is open.

Or, are you talking about no sliding drawers?

Re-reading your articles again, after all this time of doing my own research, it's like I could have written them myself.  I just won't have two dogs with me... yet.  Thoroughly enjoyed your wordpress site.

 

[tx2sturgis]

When talking about vans, as in the title of this thread, 'slides', 'sliders' 'sliding door' are all usually referring to the sliding side door on many cargo and passenger vans. 

They, like RV slides, can be troublesome in later years, sometimes requiring a bit more maintenance than a regular hinged door. And they tend to be somewhat noisy...not noticeable in urban environments during the day, but VERY noticeable in a quiet campground at 3 AM. 

Some van owners prefer them, others prefer 'barn doors' on the side of a van.

Most of the newer euro-van models don't even offer barn doors on the side...darnit.

 

[Jack]

I may have missed something, are you buying new or used?  How much do you plan to spend?  I think that would enter into my decision.

The beauty of that question is that I have time on my side!  My game plan is two-fold:

1.  I'm saving for a brand new vehicle, a really nice build, and with at least $10,000 in reserves.  That's the ultimate dream and what I'm shooting for.

However,

2.   If something happens, or the right used vehicle comes along, then I'll simply use what money I have saved, make the most of it and get out on the road sooner.  

In other words, my mindset is to shoot for the stars but to be flexible enough to roll with circumstances.

 

[frater secessus]

Promaster, unfortunately the V6 is largest engine and only available in front wheel drive ....but it has huge interior. Would be great if not for the first two items.

The stock Pentastar V6 in the PM is more powerful than the v8 in many American cargo vans.   I suppose there are folks will need more than 280hp / 260lb-ft torque in their campervan (towing, hauling, uphill passing competitions).  I'd recommend the Transit EcoBoost for the MOAR POWER club.  Personally I think the PM is slightly overpowered and yes I regularly drive up mountains.  This weekend I was at 7100' and last weekend at 9100'. 

The FWD is surefooted in mud, loose gravel, steep national forest roads, etc.  I have had no problems associated with FWD, and I appreciate the ~10" of extra headspace it provides for the roofline.  I did almost get stuck once when I drove off into deep, dry sand outside Quartzsite.  The PM pulled itself out slowly in about 2mins at normal tire pressures.  I think it would have walked out if I'd aired down.  The local fellow who stopped to watch/help said he pulls folks out there quite often.  

> The owner actually advised me not to go with the ProMaster!  He said he's on his second one and the transmissions aren't good.  He also said they ride choppy and have a tendency to lurch. 

My PM is surprisingly nimble for the size and is a pleasure to drive.  I understand the Sprinter has the best driving dynamics of all the vans.  I don't corner like a sports car because it's my house and everything I own is in it.  Some folks don't like the bus-like driving position.  The six-speed works fine, IMO.  As with all vehicles, maintenance and the use of consumables that meet factory spec is important.  Overfilling the trans can lead to frothing and damage;  perhaps this is why the trans dipstick is factory sealed.

The gasser PM trans is a normal 62TE trans with increased cooling and lower final output.  There is no pattern failure with the trans in the PM.  AFAIK there is no pattern failure with the Transit transmission itself, either, although the giubo (joo-bow) flex plate was cracking and (rarely) failing.   There is a recall/fix for that now.  There may be a minor pattern weirdness with the NV v8+7spd combo shifting, but I suspect it can/has been addressed by software.  I think there was also a software flash for the 2014 PM trans to address harsh shifting.

Everyone I met at the last RTR was happy with their PM or Transit purchase.   I didn't see many new Sprinters there.  The NV were also quite rare.

 

[frater secessus]

When talking about vans, as in the title of this thread, 'slides', 'sliders' 'sliding door' are all usually referring to the sliding side door on many cargo and passenger vans.

True, though the original mention was "slides" from one of my blog pages.  I did mean "room-extending slides" since that article addressed trailers and Class B also.
I am agnostic about sliding doors.  My side door is a slide but I don't have a preference.  The 3am noise issue can be alleviated by entering/exiting through a passenger door at quiet times.  The upside, I guess, is that you can get in/out the side door in a parking lot when other cars are near.  I usually enter/exit this way.