If You Tow Or Want To Tow

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

Yesterday I visited a cargo trailer dealer and we got into a discussion about towing specs.  He said, "I've been selling trailers for 20 years and I've never heard that.  My boss has been around way longer than that and nobody knows more about trailers than he does he will tell you."

So we asked him.  His boss said I was right not the saleman.  And before that two Chevrolet dealership service guys told me also I was right after looking at the form.

We are misunderstanding the term "towing capacity."  You MUST DEDUCT THE WEIGHT OF THE TOW VEHICLE FROM THIS FIGURE AS IT IS INCLUDED.  So if you are told you can tow 10,000 and your car/truck weighs 5,500 your towing capacity is now at 4,500. You still have to deduct the hitch weight and your vehicle passengers and cargo.  And you need to not go over your tire pressure maximum and my Silverado HD 2500 is just under 3k - what's yours?

I created a form I used to determine my specs and have listed it on my web site.  It looks complicated like an old IRS form.  Yes, I know that.  But every single term is defined and you are shown where to use each figure and how it relates.  At the end you will see I was over my load (WITH A FREAKING CARGO VAN NO LESS!) and I had 4 options to solve the problem, which I show the results of each.  I then show my only option was to reduce the hitch weight from 480 to 280 by reducting the amount of stuff I could bring from the 4810 the trailer could handle to 2810 remaining weight the truck could tow.

People are towing houses with bookcases and fireplaces and lazy boys.  Yes, start with the big trucks that tow 25-30k or more if that is what you need.  The important thing is we need to know and all we've been told to date is b.s.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Don't shoot the messenger ok?

'Towing capacity' is a different number than GCWR, or gross (or total) combined weight rating. 

If the truck has a spec of GCWR (gross combined weight rating) of, let's say, 18,000 pounds then the trailer weight (towing capacity) is derived by taking the weight of the vehicle and its contents and passengers, and subtracting that from the 18,000.

If the truck (with all the above, and fully fueled, etc) weighs 7000, then the towing capacity is 11,000.

You don't subtract the 7000 from the 11,000 towing capacity.  

If a truck manufacturer posts a number, like 11,000 pounds 'towing capacity', then that is the weight of the trailer, and it assumes you have kept the truck under its payload capacity, in other words, you don't load the truck bed to it's maximum payload and THEN add the 11,000 pound trailer. 

Of course the problem is that many light duty trucks like pickup trucks dont always list GCWR so you have to ADD the stated towing capacity to the stated truck weight to arrive at the GCWR. 

Suppose that you have a truck that says it's GVWR is 9000. And empty, the truck weighs 7000. Towing capacity is listed as 11,000.

Take the 7000, PLUS the 11,000, and now you have an IMPLIED GCWR of 18,000.

You could load 2000 pounds of cargo in the bed of the truck (counting the cargo and the hitch weight)  and pull 9,000 pounds of trailer weight.

Or you can leave the bed empty (no cargo) and pull the full 11,000 pounds as a trailer. 

There are many ways that a salesman and others can get confused by these numbers, so I know you are getting conflicting information...and that's gotta be frustrating.

 

[NoMadYesHappy]

'Towing capacity' is a different number than GCWR, or gross (or total) combined weight rating. 

Thanks for that explanation tx2sturgis.  I was freaking out for a minute there!

 

[Motrukdriver]

Yep, that's how I've always calculated it. My Jeep Grand Cherokee has a tow capacity of 5000 and a payload capacity of 1000 pounds. I subtract what ever is in the back of the Jeep from the tow capacity and that is max tow I can pull safely and legally. Do butts count towards payload capacity? I'm 235 nekkid, about 250 fully clothed and boots so I wonder do I have to add that weight to my total payload? If so I might have to change my name to Mocargo or Cargomo or Hugh Jass or something else just as catchy.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I'm 235 nekkid, about 250 fully clothed and boots so I wonder do I have to add that weight to my total payload?  If so I might have to change my name to Mocargo or Cargomo or Hugh Jass or something else just as catchy.

My new truck has what they call 'Zero Gravity Seats'....so I'm thinking that I dont have to add the mass of my ass to the lead in the sled...

What say you?

 

[Motrukdriver]

I always wondered if passenger weight was some how hidden in there someplace. I can add up quick if you have some hefty friends. Fortunately I don't have any friends for obvious reasons so no worries there. I do have a sunroof so maybe I can fabricate some type of lifting wing that will negate my gravitational displacement in the pilot's seat. In all seriousness though, I'd be careful in calculating what you can or might can or can't pull so the future remains bright. The other factors in towing not discussed here is wind resistance but that might be a topic for another thread.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Yes, I was just discussing the math involved, and the manufacturer ratings...and don't forget the lawyer'rs cut if you have an accident when over the ratings.

But from a safety standpoint, ease of towing in the mountains, drivetrain and brake wear, handling, fuel consumption, and other issues, it's always a good idea to keep the tow vehicle lighter, as opposed to getting one that is right at the max. I have towed heavy, overloaded  trailers with 1/2 ton pickups that were being overworked, and it's NOT a fun experience. 

You and I both drove truck and recognize the difference between a purpose-built commercial vehicle made for towing, and a lighter duty vehicle that can do some towing if needed.

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

I took this spreadsheet to the Chevrolet dealership and went over it with them and they agreed - the definitions written and the math I came to is correct. The trailer guy also said the same thing. I sent a copy to the SAE but have not yet heard back from them. I am still pursuing this but if you look at the form on my webpage every definition is given and every figure taken from the VIN # spec code and dealer trailer guide for that specific vehicle. I am not saying I am definitely right but I am saying it looks that way.

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

Don't shoot the messenger ok?

'Towing capacity' is a different number than GCWR, or gross (or total) combined weight rating. 

If the truck has a spec of GCWR (gross combined weight rating) of, let's say, 18,000 pounds then the trailer weight (towing capacity) is derived by taking the weight of the vehicle and its contents and passengers, and subtracting that from the 18,000.

If the truck (with all the above, and fully fueled, etc) weighs 7000, then the towing capacity is 11,000.

You don't subtract the 7000 from the 11,000 towing capacity.  

If a truck manufacturer posts a number, like 11,000 pounds 'towing capacity', then that is the weight of the trailer, and it assumes you have kept the truck under its payload capacity, in other words, you don't load the truck bed to it's maximum payload and THEN add the 11,000 pound trailer. 

Of course the problem is that many light duty trucks like pickup trucks dont always list GCWR so you have to ADD the stated towing capacity to the stated truck weight to arrive at the GCWR. 

Suppose that you have a truck that says it's GVWR is 9000. And empty, the truck weighs 7000. Towing capacity is listed as 11,000.

Take the 7000, PLUS the 11,000, and now you have an IMPLIED GCWR of 18,000.

You could load 2000 pounds of cargo in the bed of the truck (counting the cargo and the hitch weight)  and pull 9,000 pounds of trailer weight.

Or you can leave the bed empty (no cargo) and pull the full 11,000 pounds as a trailer. 

There are many ways that a salesman and others can get confused by these numbers, so I know you are getting conflicting information...and that's gotta be frustrating.

You do deduct the weight of the tow vehicle.  That's the problem.  

UVW/Curb Weight. Unloaded Vehicle Weight. How much the vehicle weighs on the curb with no passengers, no cargo with standard options. Taken from Chevy specs. On dealer invoice.


GVW. Gross Vehicle Weight. The current weight of the vehicle. Must weigh on a scale with full fluids, no passengers or cargo. FOR NOW ESTIMATE 6381 (A) + 275 lbs. Fluids. Adjust after weigh on scale.


GVWR. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. Includes payload/cargo, passeners, fuel, hitch weight – the max. amount of weight the vehicle is rated to carry. This figure includes the weight of the tow vehicle. 

GCVWR. Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating. The max. amount your truck is rated to carry including your vehicle and everything in it and your towable RV and everything in it.  ALL OF THIS IS DEDUCTED FROM THE MANUFACTURER'S TOWING CAPACITY AS BASED ON YOUR VIN NUMBER YEAR AND MODEL.

 

[John61CT]

A side issue.

Europeans calculate much higher towing capacities relative to the usually much lighter and weaker vehicles.

That is because the US is so much more litigious, and people want to drive at full highway speeds, even over the speed limit fully loaded.

It is not unsafe to go to the limits or even a bit over if everything is well maintained and working properly, AS LONG AS you are willing to drive slowly.

Of course being illegal may void your insurance if TSHTF.

 

[tx2sturgis]

GCVWR. Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating. The max. amount your truck is rated to carry including your vehicle and everything in it and your towable RV and everything in it.  ALL OF THIS IS DEDUCTED FROM THE MANUFACTURER'S TOWING CAPACITY AS BASED ON YOUR VIN NUMBER YEAR AND MODEL.

The sentence in capital letters is incorrect. 

It's the other way around: You deduct the vehicle weight, OR the trailer weight, from the GCWR to arrive at the other figure you are after. 

Suppose you have a 3500 pound Jeep with a rated towing capacity of 2000 lbs.

Now what? Do you subtract 5500 pounds (GCWR) from the stated 2000 lbs towing capacity? Which would leave a negative figure of....(minus) 3500 pounds...physically impossible for that to be true.

I've stated several times in several threads how it works in real life, and on paper. I'm trying to be helpful and that's not working so I will wait for you to figure it out on your own. 

Good luck.

 

[Rabbit]

My minivan weighs about 4000 pounds and has a 3500 rated towing capacity. Enough said...

 

[tx2sturgis]

In the interest of providing further help and clarification, I submit exhibit A and exhibit B, scans taken from the towing section of the owner's manual for the new truck I bought.

This is a Titan XD, a heavy-half.

A 2500 Chevy or GMC should be able to tow about this same amount, or probably more. 

 

[tx2sturgis]

Addendum:

The 314 pound difference (from the first chart to the second chart) in the weight available for towing reflects the approximate difference in the 2WD and the 4WD component weight. 

But essentially, I can tow about 11,300 pounds, assuming my cargo weight in the pickup is very minimal. I don't actually plan to ever tow that much, but many XD owners are easily pulling 8,000-10,000 pound travel trailers with both the diesel and the gas engines.

 

[tx2sturgis]

A youtube video of a Silverado pulling a LOT of weight:

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

A side issue.

Europeans calculate much higher towing capacities relative to the usually much lighter and weaker vehicles.

That is because the US is so much more litigious, and people want to drive at full highway speeds, even over the speed limit fully loaded.

It is not unsafe to go to the limits or even a bit over if everything is well maintained and working properly, AS LONG AS you are willing to drive slowly.

Of course being illegal may void your insurance if TSHTF.

Check your vehicle axle weight rating - that is I think one of the biggest weak links in the chain.  It certainly was in mine and is what causes me to tow so little.

Because we do have a new truck and specifically got a long warranty so we would not have major repair expense on road, hopefully, we will be maintaining all the weights and thus towing  light.  BUT we will be very comfortable and that's what counts.  Going to the cargo trailer gives me more allowable weight.

Tonight I found a blow up adult tub!  Blows up like a kiddie pool but it's a tub and even has a little spa action.  Since the cargo trailer has barn doors in the back I am thinking I can fix a temp bathroom back there large enough to fill it and I have a water pump to get it into a grey water tank on wheels.  Sounds like an occasional plan.  I'm not talking all the time but man, once in awhile that would be sweet.

 

[John61CT]

Ya carrying the water to fill it may put you over the top

 

[highdesertranger]

I thought of that too. where are you going to get the water to fill that bathtub up? highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

Carry a pump and park by some idyllic clear stream without any gun-owning water-rights holders nearby.

 

[RoadtripsAndCampfires]

I am carrying a portable water pump and have a Honda Generator as well as the grey water tank on wheels so I can roll it to a tree that needs watering. I won't use soap in the tub I just want a long hot soak. I have had a lot of disabilities since 1986 and soaking in a hot tub helps a lot. For the road I carry hydrocollators - bags that get soaked in boiling water and then towels wrapped around them to heat your body. Reuse over and over. 2 and a half years of physical therapy for my neck this was a treatment and I've done home treatments since. I used them in the forest over Labor Day on my cot under the trees after boiling the water on the propane stove.

We often stay at campsites that have water. We have a 5 gallon container on wheels we can roll over to the spicket a few times or else drive the truck over and fill up. I have a HUGE stainless steel pot to boil the water in. I refuse to leave this pot behind and it takes the same space as those 5 gallon buckets just weighs more. It's a restaurant professional pot I bought for cooking chili and it holds a lot (my folks used to own a chili restaurant).

Now, I would have to make sure the area was well secured from viewing and probably after dark.