How many are there? Statistics

[QinReno]

Bob Wells apparently gets criticism from whoever/whatever/wherever that he is encouraging too many people to get into cheap RV living, and all of those newcomers will ruin it for everyone else by overrunning the land, on and on and on. So I was wondering about actual real-world statistics.  :idea:

According to the following links there are roughly 75,000,000 active camping households, and that over 40,000,000 people go camping every year in america. Another stat shows there are about 7,000,000 RVs owned by americans. There are also maybe 2- to 4-million homeless in america, most of whom very likely live in cities and not out in the countryside. So, I seriously doubt that Bob is personally creating much of a problem, in any way, shape, or form, by showing people how to live a bit more frugally. I imagine that 99.98% of those 40,000,000 campers and 7,000,000 Rvers have never heard of Bob. 
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...U.S.-Trend-Expected-Continue-Millennials-Seek
https://www.statista.com/statistics/227417/number-of-campers-usa/
https://www.statista.com/topics/1319/camping-and-recreational-vehicles/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/754386/people-living-in-households-that-own-a-rv-usa/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States

Also, there are 247 million acres of BLM land and 188 million acres of NF lands in america. There are probably a few places the frugal few can go to get away from the other 40,000,000. Leave no trace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._National_Forests

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Statistics and the perception bias dilemma.

For general dialogue and discussion, just a few thoughts.
It's all about prime real estate.
Location, location, location. That's where the problem is/are.
The Cherry spots that everyone wants to go to because of view, climate and proximity.
And why so much enforcement in/ near Yosemite as an example. Did you know that they have their own tow trucks there to haul away vehicles? Blew my mind but shows how frequent it's an issue there.

Most of that huge BLM area mostly remote and sparse/barren, few visitors, so no problem.
But it's the pareto principle 80/20 that is.
And getting worse. Most want convenient, close access to supplies and Urban benefits. Especially the less privileged. That's the problem imho. Talk to the rangers in Colorado and see what they say. Talk to the rangers in remote Nevada and compare their assessments?
Then compare stats of busy areas, who's camping there and where they are coming from.
And then look at the homeless/ poor inaccurate stats and where they live. Stats of mobile homesteading rvers, etc.
You can blanket cover reality of specfics behind the huge acreage of total land but the devil is in the details. And Bob isn't going far from cell coverage for long. Civilization is still close by, at least within cell tower range. Lol.
Bob has what, 150k YouTube followers and 8k on the forum? He's not driving it, just riding/ promoting the wave. Along with lots of other YouTubers and Instagramers.

I read an interesting stat few weeks ago that the RV industry produced/sold approx 500,000 units last year, and 90% were trailers. Record sales and booming with no end in sight and trend continuing with retired/ing boomers and millennials driving it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/28/the...s-expected-to-push-sales-to-record-highs.html
http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/12/news/economy/rv-industry-comeback/index.html

There's lots of land, if you want to drive miles of rutted, washboarded, craggy dirt roads. Most with their expensive rigs are only going so far off the beaten path, not too far from asphalt. And why the Cherry spots and with YouTube reviews, will overwhelm them. The stats don't tell that, well not the ones you chose and interpreted.
Bob isn't "too" blame, the overall shift is there for a reason.
What will happen? Past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Stats.
Take out your crystal ball and tell me what you see?

 

[DannyB1954]

Bob didn't invent living in a vehicle. He has just parlayed it into a profitable enterprise for himself, (not judging this good or bad, just a fact). In the 80's I was living in a 18' box truck for a while, then moved to boats and then an RV.

The Japanese have a saying that the nail that sticks up gets hammered. Bob's videos probably do contribute to others living on public land, so it is not an all or nothing situation. One can't say that it is all Bob's responsibility, nor can you say he does not play a part. When he tried to do a summer RTR and too many showed up, it didn't take long for the rangers to know who organized the event did it? Bob advertised go to Ehrenberg Az. camp as long as you like. What happened there after that? People flooded the area and now stay limits are enforced. None of the managers of public land have the internet and watch you tube videos right?

A small percentage of people will be pigs. Lets say it is one in a thousand just for a number. When you have a thousand people using a public space the problem is somewhat manageable. When you have 10,000, there will be 10 times the problem . I just read an article that Sequoia National Park has just eliminated disbursed camping because of filth and over use of the land. Other areas have also been closed to this type of camping. Where are the disbursed campers going to go? The next place that will get over used and then closed. Disbursed camping is not a Constitutional right. A stroke of the pen can eliminate it everywhere forever.

Before this took place I was accused of being chicken little for talking about land being closed. As more people use public land, more problems will arise and more land will be closed. Public land managers are responsible to preserve the land for future generations. That does not mean let this generation trash the land. Do a survey here if you like. Have you found trash where you wanted to camp.

 

[QinReno]

I read an interesting stat few weeks ago that the RV industry produced/sold approx 500,000 units last year, and 90% were trailers. Record sales and booming with no end in sight and trend continuing with retired/ing boomers and millennials driving it.

Both of you and DB1954 have good points, but you're just not looking at the statistics. Bob didn't invent those 40,000,000 campers, and he's not the one driving sales of $40,000 RVs. That's a continuing growth industry in america, and has been for many decades. 40,000,000 versus a few 1000 is not a good comparison.

It's probably true that the RTR has gotten too popular, as 4000 people in one camp is rather huge. Too crowded for my tastes. But at the same time, there were something like 100,000 RVs camping around Quartzsite, plus huge numbers of RVs down around Yuma. Bob probably has over blown staying in certain areas like Ehrenburg and Flagstaff, but he did do sort of a mea culpa in his live video a week ago, and recommended people start moving "farther out" away from the prime areas. For my part, I drove around Ehrenburg and thought it was too crappy to stay there.
https://wheelingit.us/2013/01/25/the-biggest-rv-gathering-on-earth-quartzsite-az/

 

[QinReno]

A small percentage of people will be pigs. Lets say it is one in a thousand just for a number. When you have a thousand people using a public space the problem is somewhat manageable. When you have 10,000,  there will be 10 times the problem .
....
Where are the disbursed campers going to go?

Again, this is not a good comparison, and is conflating 2 different issues. People coming to this website are NOT the ones leaving a mess out there.

And as indicated, there are 247 million acres of BLM land and 188 million acres of NF lands in america. So keep looking.

 

[John61CT]

Homeless people as usually defined can never afford to become van dwellers.

That half-million figure is an estimate of "on any given night".

Really irrelevant to the topic.

The overall problem is "housing insecurity", and those on a downward trend, marginally able to maintain S&B living while wages (never mind gov benefits) can't keep up with rapidly escalating rents.

Realizing it is viable to live in a vehicle and no longer pay a fixed rent every month is a huge revelation and life-saving relief to many in that situation, while they still have resources left to make the transition.

But it is true, as the above root problem continues to worsen, even accelerate,

and more jurisdictions "are forced to" take steps to prevent van dwelling,

the available "slots" in attractive locations will shrink as the demand for them grows.

Unless our political culture becomes more permissive and compassionate (call me skeptical) I do think the problem will surface publicly in more and more places.

 

[DannyB1954]

People coming to this website are NOT the ones leaving a mess out there.

And as indicated, there are 247 million acres of BLM land and 188 million acres of NF lands in america. So keep looking.

Yes of course everyone here is wonderful.  Probably nobody had to clean up after somebody else at the RTR.
I was not pointing fingers at who the pigs were, just that they are there. There is no dispute that trash is being left at camp sites by somebody. The more that people use the land, the quicker it will close. Soil compaction is also given as a reason for closure, but nobody here ever takes their rigs off the road either I suppose. Nobody ever leaves toilet paper sticking out of the ground, or uses soap or any other type of chemical like ant spray. Land managers are not going to say this area is closed unless you have a CRVL sticker on your vehicle.

As far as numbers of RV's sold, The vast majority will not be used for disbursed camping. The prices for new units would indicate to me the people buying them are fairly well off financially. How many of them will choose to live on public land permanently is probably a very very small fraction.

At any rate, the trend will be for more people to be using Public Land, not fewer. As has been stated earlier by Minivanmotoman in post #2, most of the use will be concentrated in small areas, (near city services). Yes you can go out to the middle of nowhere, but this will be more of a rarity than a rule. As areas close it will be further and further out. Better have gas money to be able to restock supplies.

 

[lenny flank]

Bob who...?

 

[wasanah2]

Camping trailers are expensive and camping itself has gotten more expensive.  If you go find a campground with all the amenities you want, you almost pay what you'd pay for a nice hotel room.

What is needed is the old time what they called "Motor camps."  You got a slot for your vehicle or tiny trailer, a place to plug in a house current drop cord and there's a spigot on the hill to fill your pails of water.  It was next to nothing to do that.  And they did pack them in like sardines.  But some folks would spend an entire summer that way for little cost.

RV'ing has gone so upscale.  I'm temporarily in a campground now in my old rig, surrounded by these huge mega trailers.  Some have to be pulled by Semis.  That's crazy camping.  I am in a rather higher brow place in a low rent spot, but really, some of these are mansions on wheels, the culmination of a hard working couple's savings.  And they haven't yet begun to spend on it.  The upkeep on them is unreal.  One person here at this campground had to get the gate code for HER MAID.  WHO NEEDS A MAID IN A CAMPER?  Well, these people do.  Then they spend a lot for their prime spot and for their rig, they need to have it professionally cleaned.  And if something breaks that's not in the warranty, well it costs.

So that's great for them.  For the rest of us, I'm wondering if an old fashioned Motor Camp would work best.  A slot, a bit of electricity which might run a small BTU A/C and run as much as you can on propane.  That's what they did in the old days.  The fridge and stove were propane.  A shared shower house with flush toilets for those who need them was present.  Maybe a little laundermat in there....Yeah,  I'd be happy to find a place like that in the shade.   It would serve the masses in those statistics wonderfully.

 

[DannyB1954]

Bob who...?

Listed in post #1 at the very beginning.

 

[QinReno]

These numbers are so large, 40,000,000 campers, 100,000 RVs in Quartzsite alone, public land in the range of 450,000,000 acres (700,000 square miles), that it boggles the mind, and it's too easy to get caught up in one-off situations.

Eg, I looked at the page referenced in another thread about an area closed to dispersed camping, plus official notices on the USDA site.
https://kernvalleysun.com/dispersed-camping-limited/
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd556077.pdf
https://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/sequoia/alerts-notices/?aid=42662

You will notice the newspaper article actually references 8 other areas that are still available for dispersed camping, so it's not yet the end of the world as we know it, until the idiots wreck those areas too. The Sequoia National Forest covers 1,193,315 acres, so there are still areas left to visit.

 

[crofter]

These numbers are so large, 40,000,000 campers, 100,000 RVs in Quartzsite alone, public land in the range of 450,000,000 acres (700,000 square miles), that it boggles the mind, and it's too easy to get caught up in one-off situations.

And yet, yesterday I went to one of my favorite spots that has about 50 sites if you include boondocking, and there was one other camper there. 
~crofter

 

[QinReno]

Ah so, Mr C. "... And yet ......"?  And yet what? Not sure what your point is:
(1) your favorite area are not being overrun, and plenty of space available.
(2) the favorite spot was not covered in garbage.
(3) the one other camper was making a big nasty mess, and you called the Gendarmes.
Yes/No/Maybe?

For reference, when I was up in Oregon for a month in May-June, this is how many campers were at where I stayed:
- BLM land west of Terrebonne = 3 or 4 dispersed RVs each night. Idiot locals with semi-automatic weapons shooting at bottles in the nearby campsites during the day.
- 3 Creek Lake CG = 1 other camper.
- 3 Creek Meadow CG = only me.
- Whispering Pines CG = 3 nights, 1 other camper for 1 night.
- Lower Canyon Creek CG = 2 other campers (but nearby Camp Sherman was packed with RVs).
- Skull Hollow CG = 2 nights, about 6 other campers, mostly climbers heading for Smith Rocks.
- Little Fawn CG, Elk Lake = 2 nights, 3 other campers.
- Gull Point CG, Wickiup Res = 100 campsites, all full, mainly boaters.
- Bridge CG, near Lassen = 8 or 9 other campers.
- Hat Creek CG, near Lassen = maybe 20-30 campers in 72 sites total.

I only really boondocked for about the first 10-days, and then it was organized CGs after that, since I camp in a van with minimal bathroom facilities. However, there were many dirt side roads on the NF areas where one could drive down.

 

[MrNoodly]

It's all about prime real estate.
Location, location, location. That's where the problem is/are.
The Cherry spots that everyone wants to go to because of view, climate and proximity.

In the five years I've been full time vandwelling, I've rarely been aced out of a cherry spot by other full-timers. It's usually weekenders, vacationers or seasonal people.

 

[QinReno]

In the five years I've been full time vandwelling, I've rarely been aced out of a cherry spot by other full-timers. It's usually weekenders, vacationers or seasonal people.

That's what you call the "other" 40,000,000 campers.
-------------

For people wanting to find places to camp, I've mentioned this book before, which I use all the time on the road, 12,000 campgrounds listed.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0937877557

I also recently ran across this site, 15,000 campgrounds listed,
http://www.camping-usa.com/

And of course there is shirley freecampsites.net, which found me BLM near Bend OR.