Heavy handed moderation

[highdesertranger]

ok I have been a member since April 2012. when I first joined I got in a lot of trouble, I had posts deleted, I got warned, I got asked to leave. but I stuck around and learned to live by the rules. Bob's vision is to help people and I liked that. to me that is the number one priority, to help. to me if anybody's post is not helping people live in their vehicle then it is subject to deletion or in the case of a thread, closure. of course we can have a little fun every once in awhile, but we need to keep the big picture in sight.

I have deleted post by members I considered friends, I try to be evenhanded but nobody is perfect. remember this forum is not about any one person it's for everyone.

I have gone out of my way sometimes to add description to links, but sometimes I don't have the time or I am sick of doing it so I delete the post, sometimes I edit the link out for members without the 10 required posts if their post makes no sense without the link I have no choice but to delete it.

you have to remember us Moderators are human and are not perfect we make mistakes, everyone does.

so if you are considerate to all members, especially those that know less than you do and are posting info that is helpful to people living in vehicles, you are good with me. just don't get political, show respect, and stay on subject. LOL I am guilty as the next for going off topic.

for the complete rules everyone needs to read this whole section,

https://vanlivingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=22

in conclusion I want to thank everybody who contributes here. we are here to help and the help given is greatly appreciated by everyone, me included. highdesertranger

 

[Headache]

If the rules aren’t laid out and enforced and enforcement actions aren’t done by the book with a reference to exactly what violated the rules, you often end up with a situation where the moderators and their friends can violate the rules, and do, because they know they can get away with it, and it pretty quickly becomes an insular place that people leave and new people don’t stick around at.

I don't know what you grew as far as being by the book, but if you don't allow for some flexibility it becomes a rigid, hateful job instead of an enjoyable, helpful volunteer position.  Then you will have no moderators.

If someone tells you to eff off, brings up your hygiene and other irrelevant things meant to offend they are in violation.  Again mentioning the two I take issue with, they haven't been blatant(although one comes really close because they expect others to see things exactly as they do and their frustration pours out in veiled insults) enough to get the ban hammer although I'd love to give them both a piece of my mind.  I'm an unapologetic hypocrite in this regard.  If someone's brain is that broken that they refuse to comprehend what they've done even after being told not to do it(more than once in the case of the chronic hijacker) I'm not a nice person about it.

What concerns me most about the above I quoted is you are expecting both Bob and the moderators to be fortune tellers.  No one not even you can predict with 100% accuracy what rules are going to be bent or broken, by who and when they will do it.  This board started out just like a lot of other boards; the less rules the better, let's see what happens.  Like a lot of other boards they have to adjust the rules as people cause issues.  And also like a lot of other boards they aren't going to up and change things just to make one or a couple people happy.  You haven't even given this board a chance to grow on you and you are already making threats that people rearrange the furniture for you. 

It appears to me(and yes I am speculating) that you started out by trying to be helpful and because things didn't happen to your satisfaction you decided to go public with your issues.  That's a good enough reason to me as to why I stopped those kind of threads.  There's no reason to wear a tin foil hat here.  There's no evil conspiracy underfoot.  I'll stop there.

Don't assume as you did that I'm a fan girl.  No I am not.  I'm just able to comprehend that when I'm a guest on someone else's property I behave accordingly...or at least I don't get all butt hurt if I get spanked by a mod, and yes I have been.  Luckily I have no teeth to clench.

 

[Headache]

To be honest, I have seen forums paint a target on a newbie who complained about the rules so soon after joining. Just saying.........

As soon as I read that I thought, "That person has been on Pirate 4x4!"  lol

 

[akrvbob]

You've raised many questions, now let me answer them as honestly as I know how. 

 I promise you with all the honesty and integrity that is inside me, that all the moderators are great people with only one goal, serve the community to the best of their abilities--and for the most part, they do a great job! 

Do they and I make mistakes, of course we do!!! Each of us can look back with regrets at decisions we made too fast, too slow, too impatient, too angry, too tired or just plain too pissy and too stubborn. 

And me more than anyone else. 

But let me tell you this again, every one of us is here and working at a hard, thankless, often-hated and insulted jobs because we care about this community and are willing to sacrifice for it. We all do our best, and that is remarkably good!!

Let me say that again, we do a remarkably good job!! The vast majority of time the forum runs smoothly and peoples lives are helped and changed. For every person who hates what we do, there are generally more who love what we do--and that is about as good as it gets for a forum.

If only perfect people can be a moderator, this is the forums last day because that ain't going to happen and we are closing up shop. And a lot of people are NOT going to be helped who should have been

Please try to remember that almost nothing in the realm of moderating is black and white, it's nearly all shades of grey--but as moderators, we know how quickly grey turns into fire-engine red as the insults and hate flies. So we tend to err on the side of preventing that from happening. 

Here is the most important thing for you to understand, too often people come here and force us to choose between them and their barely acceptable, (or even unacceptable) behaviour on one hand, and all the people we want to be helping on the other. 

What they say, and more importantly, the way they say it, creates an undercurrent of tension, judgement and problem. It's unpleasant and disturbs people. It's not blatantly breaking the rules, but it "feels' wrong and makes the forum on edge. And every new person coming here can feel it and if we let it go on too long, it can mean they just come in and then turn around and leave without finding the community and the help they desperately need. That's unacceptable to us!!

Which should we choose? Which of them is more important?

Fortunately, we have a lot of forum experts here in this thread who know much more than we do, so tell us, how do you write rules for "tone" of a post? How do we write a rule that posts should be accepting and welcoming and not judgemental? What is a judgmental post? Is it just a direct insult? How do you determine what "environment" a post contributes to?

We are extremely concerned for the environment of the forum, is it accepting, friendly and welcoming or is it harsh and judgemental.  Is it a Safe Place?

If you back us into a corner, we are going to chose the people who need our help every time. 

If you create an environment where they will be uncomfortable to post for fear of peoples response, then you catch our full attention and we are going to start watching you. If it becomes a pattern, we'll take action. As soon as we do, the threads begin about how horrible we are:

• "I was just kidding, this forum has no sense of humor! I'm leaving" 
• "More politically correct bullshit, I'm leaving!"
• "I'm an expert so I should be able to tell them anything I want in any way I want! I'm leaving"
• "You're way too worried about babying peoples feelings, I'm leaving!!"
• "Censorship!! I'm leaving!!"

By this point, we've been watching you and fighting with you and there is a collective sigh of relief among the moderators that you're finally gone. The truth is we rarely ban anyone, that's the last thing we want to do--but we will not let you run off the people who come here for help--they are our highest priority.

This is so simple, all we ask is that you come here with a good attitude of trying to help others or find help yourself. Be kind, thoughtful and accepting of others.

Love and tolerance of others is our code and no set of rules can cover that.

Treat others the way you want to be treated and we'll all get along just fine.

 

[lenny flank]

I got no gripes at all. (Despite getting my share of mod nasty-grams.)

We're a bunch of unruly opinionated bastids, and no matter what the mods do there will always be SOMEBODY who won't like it. C'est la vie. (shrug)

My blunt advice to anyone who doesn't like it here--go find another forum that makes you happier.

 

[ZoNiE]

I thought it was a bit odd that the "Portland overwhelmed with RV's" thread was closed. I didn't see any political posts and I read through it all several times, perhaps something was deleted and I missed it? If so, then delete the offending post but don't close the conversation.

I was a bit irritated that my own post wasn't given a chance for any commentary, as I thought there was a basis for a good way to deal with the growing issue in a humane and cost effective way... To have to tiptoe over or avoid talking about something that is a real growing issue in this society to prevent someone from getting butt hurt means that we're going the wrong way here too. I had assumed we were all mature adults here, but perhaps there are a few who are not.

If threads are going to be closed prematurely without giving people a chance to behave, then maybe it's time I contribute elsewhere.

BTW, food stamps / SNAP/ EBT can be used for prepared meals in many states now.

 

[closeanuf]

I come here everyday and see things that make me happy and things that make me want to help someone.  There have been times when my contributions weren't welcome, but I figure someone may  have been looking for my comment.  I pick up a gem everyday.  We've all had different life experiences and I think this place is a great place to share them with people who want to know.  You never know who you're helping and I think that's the way help should be given.  I participate on this forum because I LIKE IT!

 

[SoulRaven]

"closeanuf" is SO right! Maybe an answer that someone gives me won't work in my situation, but I appreciate the effort, and somebody who is too shy or just not ready yet to post may find it will work for them! (It could even be 10 years from now when someone does a search.) So many groups focused on political issues, as well as other specific topics. I have no issue with the mods, I appreciate them and sometimes pity them when I realize there is a thread that is quickly becoming something they have to make a decision on.

 

[DesertRose]

Regarding the "warning" issue on page 2 of this thread:

How 'bout harbinger?!

For the record, I didn't take the use of the word "warning" as a threat, or ominous, or intimidative. <---Is that a word?   I just took it the way I think Technomad meant it. And I believe in this instance that was correct.

As for the issue in general, I've avoided forums for a long time after being cyber-bullied by a bunch of psychopaths and/or their sock puppets about 12 years ago, for being a stand up person who defended myself and others. But that was a silly fashion blog designed to allow me to let off steam while taking four 4000-5000 level courses at once at university. Law Enforcement was considered more than once but ultimately not pursued. Went completely dark for several years after that.  I can't add much other than to say something obvious: writing has a way of not allowing a person's true intentions to come through. That's why we have the proliferation of smilies and exclamation points, etc. to soften what in my opinion should often not be considered intimidating or disrespectful or downright rude.

I left a very popular and visible social media forum recently (Not Facebook) where a few men constantly attacked women, no matter what they said. No matter how ridiculous and downright rude and offensive they were, those yokels didn't get warned, benched or banned. I don't find that to be true here, thankfully. Quite the opposite. I quite agree with Bob's statement during the Tin Cup at the RTR about the historical and current culture for women. Obviously that one loud guy didn't, but Bob handled it perfectly and so did the audience. The guy was allowed to speak and keep speaking, and no one took the bait.

I think CRVL has covered most if not all issues regarding RV Living. It's the updates and changes in tech, laws, various peoples' news/changes/needs, etc. that keeps CRVL vital and keeps it going. I hope that people can agree to disagree about various written communication styles and allow for that. For the most part, I think CVRL does even though I've been here a very short time.

RE: OFF TOPIC
Can we not talk about things other than RV Living off topic in the OT forum? Must it somehow relate to RV Living? If so, I don't see how that's possible!

Here's an example: And Goodwill posted something about sand recently, with a link I was glad to have access to. It was in the OT Forum. Somebody or bodies came on and were either obliquely or directly critical about it. My feeling is, go read the article first, utilize critical thinking and then post your thoughts/feelings/critiques.   Yeah, the topic is a stretch in relation to mobile living, but it was in the OT.

 

[Annie W]

oh THANK GOD for both Bob's home here.
and
you too John

Plus Jimindenver & over 8+ others I've encountered here in just one month, who Contribute... generously.

You are such a fountain of Awareness... & all goodness... you offer is much Appreciated...

of the 13 prior forums I've been in, THIS Bob's loving 

 HOME forum is by far... the best.

Post edited to remove unecessary quoting.

 

[Annie W]

Fair enough. In real life, nearly all social conversations stray except for in most academic settings & even those stray occasionally. 
Moderators are to keep a thread from derailing, it's what mods do.
I felt thread had good benefit, and that most didn't "bicker" and those are the one's who had the good discussion.

Good grief, now And Goodwill left too ?? - No, no, COME back, you silly

Really, I thanked you for your posts. YOU are a *valued* member of this here community. PLEASE RETURN...

 

[waldenbound]

I stay far, far away from political posts, but I do post my opinion in the "sociology" type posts. Now that the rubber is about to meet the road, literally, I know I've been a taker of three year's worth of free advice and it will be time for me to start giving.
So I won't be posting on the sociology posts, but more of my practical experience. And I'm nice, I think.

 

[Annie W]

This forum is too hostile.
(snip)
To have a healthy forum the rules need to be objective, clear, fairly applied— and
ALL moderator actions need to be backed up with a chapter and verse citation of the rule being broken.
In this forum there are no rules against talking about things that have been talked about before.
Finally, this forum needs a moderator of the moderators.  
Either an appeal mechanism or person who is not a moderator who has some power to police the moderators.

Bobs rules have the right spirit. We need to stick to them if you want this forum to thrive.

Hi Technomad
May I add what I haven't noticed anyone else addressing in past 5 pages of this thread: you're another genius

me, as a Christian beloved little child-of-God, when you used "chapter & verse" it makes Bob's forum sound like a bible. Intentional ?

You know the CENTRAL-message of God's Word is what ? = love  :heart: *truthfully*, +connecting with that 1st. single mom, Bob felt
inspired...
You also know that any of God's gifts (incldg. salvation) are to us FREE,,,,  as is Bob's Forum-home here. Not 1 cent he ever charges.
ALL
that God asks of us is Sharing... God's LOVE with yet others. As well Bob reminded just yesterday PLEASE love yet others, too

Now the word too is very significant, Why? it means that in order for us to love 'others', we get to LOVE ourself beforehand.
Hopefully each moderator does operate... from LOVE within, as they interact... with us.
and
when they "miss the mark" as all of us, some times more than other times, a HUGE part of God's love is Forgive...
and
You know what else: when our last moment on earth is fini, all we take with us is *our relationships*. Technomad be joyful...knowing you are loved...

 

[Wabbit]

... it makes Bob's forum sound like a bible...

You're killing me here Anne! We gotta get together and party sometime! We'll have a blast.

 

[Annie W]

okay Wabbit,
got at least 9 irons in the fire already, before I could 'get together' in yet another blast, lol - Annie

 

[Technomad]

LOL!

For those says my I should have raised issues with bob, note that his messages are blocked, you can’t raise issues with him.

But his message is clear— he doesn’t want to enforce the rules and anyone who points out problems is obviously a trouble maker.

Thanks everyone who responded— this post was actually a litmus test.

Every one of your responses confirmed my allegations.

I know not to waste any more time contributing to this forum, because even expecting people to be treated with basic respect is too much.

Thanks for confirming that, Bob!

 

[Technomad]

By the way, for the record I have a great deal of expertise and knowledge. I have spent a lot of time here answering questions. I actually know things because I’m a professional, not because I did something and it worked and that makes me think I’m an expert.

I was happy and willing to contribute that knowledge.

I have now given the moderators and bob an opportunity to justify their violations of the rules. They have evaded the issue. That tells me everything- that respect can’t even be expected here, let alone required.

That editing people’s posts dishonestly will continue. Which is tantamount to fraud. That the moderators will continue to be abusive assholes— and it was shocking how many of your responses were the same kind of rationalizations an abused wife makes to justify her husband beating her up.

But there is no point in investing time in a forum where the moderators are assholes, violate the rules and then threaten people and demand their asses are kissed... and the forum populace is kissing their asses because they know the consequences if they don’t, and where the owner is MIA and not open to even hearing about problems, let alone fixing them.

And it’s clear from the responses others have raised these issues before and rather than fix them, you badmouth them— as bob spent his time in his message doing, rather than actually answering my concerns.

This forum is dying, it’s obvious and it will continue to do so. It doesn’t matter how many registrations you have if there are only 5 people who contribute. Now I’m just another of those people who left and you’re still counting to tell yourself everything is fine. But I won’t be back.

As several suggested, if I don’t like it, I should find a place not run by assholes.

No problem!

Sayanora!





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Njaco]

The newbie doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[DesertRose]

Here's the thing: there is a bunch of stuff on this forum that doesn't apply to me. I don't read it. I don't have time to read all the stuff that DOES apply to me.

I don't even know what Technomad is actually complaining about (edited posts? warnings? moderation?) because I didn't see it. And no, I'm not a dumb bunny. (Not implying that Tech thinks that.) I haven't had posts edited by mods, and I haven't seen where other people's posts have been edited - how could I? I'm not naive, a whole private forum was created to discuss how I was going to be tortured in various ways, something I of course didn't read after learning of its existence. I never visited that URL again and never will. And as someone who worked for extremely high powered urban attorneys for more than 33 years, I'm definitely not clueless about lack of respect and unequal/unfair treatment.

Some people are naturally bristly, some are pollyanna-ish. I'm a combination of both. In other words, don't piss me off (go too far) in real life (not here)! As far as this forum, so far I like it here. I don't think I'm naive for feeling that way. Some people here do skate the line with oblique comments and I just ignore them, often answering them in my head only. I haven't seen anything I seriously take issue with, though I'm still curious why OT is not quite OT but I'm sure I'll find out sooner or later. And I will go and read the rules and guidelines again regarding the OT area.



Unless I see concrete evidence of what happened with Technomad and/or others, I can't do an accurate and valid analysis of the instant issue. I guess start a blog or something else and put it all there?

 

[lenny flank]

Sayanora!

Happy travels.