Faking Service Dogs Hurt Real SD Teams(The Law)

[anewbiewannabe]

Arctic cat, this makes me so mad on your behalf! It's unbelievable, but from the point of view that someone would deny you access, not that it happens. As wrong as it is, in my opinion, I'm sure it happens. I hope that you win your lawsuits and they have to pay for their discrimination!

 

[DrJean]

I think I just posted my post in the wrong thread. :O

 

[Headache]

A service dog in training is allowed anywhere a trained one is allowed.

The ADA laws only apply to fully trained service dogs because technically they aren't actual service dogs until they can perform their tasks as required by law.  This is a gray area that needs addressed.  In some states(I'm assuming you are in one) SDITs(service dogs in training) are given some latitude and federal law allows for this because the state law must favor the disabled person.  However, if the handler cannot control the dog or it is otherwise acting in a disruptive manner they can be asked to leave with prejudice because the scope of the federal law does not protect SDs in training beyond the terminology defined as required training and behavior.  State laws CANNOT be more restrictive than federal law.

As far as I know at this time only 4 states allow for SDITs and at least 2 of them require the presence of a certified trainer.

Ok. Can you tell I'm passionate about this topic? (Thanks for the thread!)  I still have plenty more 2 cent increments.   Thanks for reading! 

Ugh, something happened to my edit!  Yes thank you for contributing!  I'm very passionate about this as well and is why I started it! 

Here's an article I found that is VERY descriptive.  Had I known about it I would have just posted this:
http://stephaniecolman.com/Service Dogs July 2015.pdf

 

[Headache]

Is there a way you can call the company where you got your dog from so you can have some kind of papers to show that your dog has been trained as a service dog and what function the dog serves for you? 

You can if your dog was trained by a facility but many aren't and it also negates the reason for these laws and updates.  The point of them is to protect us from being forced into producing anything that could otherwise identify us as disabled people as well as divulging our disabilities.

I had a walmart door watcher insist I put my service dog INTO the front of the go-buggy!   THEIR own rules state that that is NOT to be done.  SO I did to get into the store and then took him out asap. 

This is exactly what we are trying to avoid.  I would have demanded that door greeter get the store manager or manager who was in charge at the time. If they refused I will call the police.  Unfortunately even with PTSD and other social anxiety issues I still end up having to advocate for myself and educate those who don't know or overstep the law.

 

[DrJean]

Yes a clarification I need to make about dogs in training.  Usually it is the State law that allows or mandates allowance (for surely common sense tells you a dog needs to be trained for air travel or workplace or other socialization in environments and not wait for the newness with the disabled person... when, at that time, the animal becomes trained?)Also, such as with a student, the dog in training with the trainer needs to attend school together to learn and be taught and teach others too. 




The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) does not allow “service animals in training” in the cabin of the aircraft because “in training” status indicates that they do not yet meet the legal definition of service animal. However, like pet policies, airline policies regarding service animals in training vary. Some airlines permit qualified trainers to bring service animals in training aboard an aircraft for training purposes. Trainers of service animals should consult with airlines and become familiar with their policies.



In the employment setting, employers may be obligated to permit employees to bring their “service animal in training” into the workplace as a reasonable accommodation, especially if the animal is being trained to assist the employee with work-related tasks. The untrained animal may be excluded, however, if it becomes a workplace disruption or causes an undue hardship in the workplace.

 

[Headache]

What you stated about employers and schools should be common sense however, with all the fakers out there doing damage to the SD community we can't rely on common sense.

Employers and schools aren't under any legal obligation to provide reasonable accommodation to an SDIT unless state law allows for it(but like you said they should allow it) because the ADA doesn't.  I just want to be clear on this because fakers are taking advantage of loopholes to take their pets anywhere and it has definitely been damaging our community and made volunteer access more difficult to get.  For more information please check your state laws covering this:

https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-assistance-animal-laws

That's why SDITs are still a gray area.  We sometimes have to be VERY creative in order to get our dogs into the areas and situations necessary to work with them.  Luckily in this state(WA) dogs are allowed on many of the public bus systems however they may be barred from light rail and are not allowed taxis, restaurants and other public businesses as we don't have state SDIT laws.  With the amount of businesses allowing pet dogs in it's not that hard anymore but you have to make sure the stores in your area allow it.  Where I live now I can bring my dog(not an SDIT) into Lowes and Goodwill so it's not difficult to do public access work with SDITs.


We scored a major collateral win when Amtrak started allowing PETS on some of their trains but there are specific routes and rules that must be followed.

Mentally ill people get screwed by the ACAA because it supersedes the ADA, the FAA is allowed to write it's own rules.  In order to get our animals onto planes we have to have a doctor's letter(and they must be a mental health professional) on their letterhead stating we are not a danger, that we have to have our PSDs and in it they must divulge our issues and why the dog is necessary.  We are required to hand over this documentation where we have no idea how it is stored nor who has access to it and we can still be refused to fly while standing at the gate with boarding pass in hand. 

Guess who doesn't fly anymore.

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/ESA-flying

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/20030509.pdf

 

[DrJean]

Yep  I quit flying for other reasons but yeah.  Though I must say I never had any problem with American Airlines and Southwest.

I'm at the other end of the country though, and FL does allow SDIT everywhere.  Of course OF COURSE you don't take the dog anywhere until he/she has all the basics down.

One of the big problems here is the millennial mindsets of tolerance and the money bags women who have to carry their pocketbook dogs everywhere I mean, some of these dogs aren't even housebroken! Much less socialized. That's because the owner isn't (housebroken or socialized I'll leave it up to you). 

I haven't even allowed my service dog (any that I've had) groom himself in public. Once trained I don't even have to remind "not in public".  That isn't a requirement of ada   it is for me though.

Hmmm...  but it is really the lying that gets me.  And the shop keepers are too afraid of this litigious society to put their foot down.  Perhaps that's where we should all band together to allow a small intrusion upon our lives to prove our dogs so the frauds can be caught and stopped?

 

[Headache]

Hmmm...  but it is really the lying that gets me.  And the shop keepers are too afraid of this litigious society to put their foot down.  Perhaps that's where we should all band together to allow a small intrusion upon our lives to prove our dogs so the frauds can be caught and stopped?

More often I run into personnel that are ignorant of the law rather than lying about it. 

Divulging our disabilities isn't a small issue.  Many before us fought long and hard to not have to give up that personal information so we wouldn't be discriminated against and many of us now still fight to protect that.  Our disabilities should not ever be used as a qualifier for access and we all must stand firm.  Why should our private medical histories be provided just because someone doesn't know the law?  If you are willing to take the time for an "intrusion" why wouldn't you be just as willing to take the time to educate someone?  It can be done as simply as handing someone a card or pamphlet with the law on it or a phone call to the police.  Giving up our private information puts us in the position to be judged by people unqualified to do so.  Everyone following the law, imperfect as it is levels the playing field, keeps honest people honest and protects our privacy.  My disabilities are not up for public display and I am not a performing monkey.

Besides, it's already a "small intrusion" to have to tell some stranger what our dogs are trained to do.  If we don't stand together to defend what little we have to protect us the fakers are going to make it very difficult for us to have access to anything if people don't speak out/stand up against it. Anything more than that until we have standards gets vehement "NO" from me.

 

[gcal]

More often I run into personnel that are ignorant of the law rather than lying about it. 

Divulging our disabilities isn't a small issue.  Many before us fought long and hard to not have to give up that personal information so we wouldn't be discriminated against and many of us now still fight to protect that.  Our disabilities should not ever be used as a qualifier for access and we all must stand firm.  Why should our private medical histories be provided just because someone doesn't know the law?  If you are willing to take the time for an "intrusion" why wouldn't you be just as willing to take the time to educate someone?  It can be done as simply as handing someone a card or pamphlet with the law on it or a phone call to the police.  Giving up our private information puts us in the position to be judged by people unqualified to do so.  Everyone following the law, imperfect as it is levels the playing field, keeps honest people honest and protects our privacy.  My disabilities are not up for public display and I am not a performing monkey.

Besides, it's already a "small intrusion" to have to tell some stranger what our dogs are trained to do.  If we don't stand together to defend what little we have to protect us the fakers are going to make it very difficult for us to have access to anything if people don't speak out/stand up against it.  Anything more than that until we have standards gets vehement "NO" from me.

If you want a special privilege, there is a cost involved. And there should be. If the need is real, 99% of the people you deal with will be supportive and tolerant of your dog. Ain't no free lunch for nobody.

 

[GotSmart]

As a member of society, I do not care what reason you have a service dog. (Your business, not mine.)  My concern is that every "entitled" slob with a diseased mutt (or duck) will try to bring it into the place I am eating, or buying my food at  I can tell a properly trained SD by looking at it, and I do not have a problem with someone that has a genuine need bringing one into any place I am.  I am happy to see a well trained SD, and will give the owner a smile and a thumbs up if noticed. 

There needs to be a way of weeding out these fakes that call a duck a service animal, or bring in an untrained and unwashed pet into the place where I am eating.  Nothing turns my stomach more than the smell of a dirty dog, that is begging scraps from everyone in a restaurant. (Yes I have seen that.)  

I do not bring my companion cat into a restaurant even though he is well behaved and trained.  He will wander and beg.  

The government needs to be able to license a service animal for the benefit of those that need one.  (Here is the tag, it is bonafide)  That will stop problems such have been brought up in this thread.

 

[DrJean]

There's just too many variables to "certifying" a service dog, at least the FEDs would make it worse than it is imo.  


We cannot rely upon a doctor's certificate, especially these days, because they might think a patient "doesn't need one" or that having one "might make them dependent upon the animal" or some other ignorant reason.  Plus, having to go to a doctor these days is the last thing a poor person can afford to do.  And certificates can be forged anyway, by the criminal element.


Laws and regulations are supposed to be for those who break them, not for law abiding citizens.  It shouldn't cost anyone more than it already does just because you're disabled!

The question of "what does the dog do for you that you can't do for yourself" is often enough to prove it's a pet or a service dog.  The average person with a pet (who doesn't know of this question) will hem and haw.

Once you begin Federally certifying dogs, then they'll insist upon certifying the trainers, requiring a trainer.  Let me tell you, I use a trainer very sparsely.  This is my 3rd service dog and it's only my disability that keeps me from doing all the training myself. But at $250 an hour for the trainer, you'll be limiting just who can have a service dog.  Only the rich?  Fully trained service dogs are valued at about $45,000 nowdays.

The non profits have a backlog, and they have hard to accommodate requirements.  I was on one list--at the top of the list because I already had a service dog who was aging--and after 4 years they still hadn't moved me to the very top for a dog!   Plus, many require the disabled person to attend THEIR training center to be trained with the "ready" service dog...for a week or more.  Really?  Think about that.  I couldn't have done that anyway, due to extreme fatigue especially the day after an activity.


When I mentioned giving up a little more to catch the fakers... I meant something along the lines that we are open to do anyway, having that card with ADA law and or contact numbers of authorities who answer phones and will explain the law to the questioner. 
I really think the best approach IS education of the public,  peer pressure and fines. Unfortunately the local law enforcement rarely step up to the plate anyway on this. "It's a civil matter" to them.

 

[Headache]

The government needs to be able to license a service animal for the benefit of those that need one.  (Here is the tag, it is bonafide)  That will stop problems such have been brought up in this thread.

You are right but until we can get reasonable standards established that don't discriminate against the poor and other "categories" of disabled people, we have to work with and protect what we have.  That means standing up for ourselves and calling out fakes.

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/node/595

Unfortunately the local law enforcement rarely step up to the plate anyway on this. "It's a civil matter" to them. 

That's why we can't back down.  Even LEOs have to be educated sometimes because they don't realize it's a federal matter.  Money for training hasn't caught up with our knowledge in a lot of places still.

 

[GypsyDogs]

As a member of society, I do not care what reason you have a service dog. (Your business, not mine.)  My concern is that every "entitled" slob with a diseased mutt (or duck) will try to bring it into the place I am eating, or buying my food at  I can tell a properly trained SD by looking at it, and I do not have a problem with someone that has a genuine need bringing one into any place I am.

The folks that work in my local stores joke that they know my girl is an actual 'working dog' because she looks So Profoundly Bored. lol Her body language is proud, attentive, but with an overarching "been here- done this before." theme.

Unlike the guy who, on a blazing hot august day, brought his dirty, unkempt lab into the grocery store. The thing was choking on the end of the leash, and the guy is going around declaring "He's a Service Dog!" to everyone he encountered. I saw them coming down the aisle, and put my shopping cart between them an us. Guy proceeds to act like our dogs should play.. advancing, telling me it is a SD.. I quietly tell him to keep his distance, that this is a grocery store, not a dog park. He gives me a dirty look and goes to find another 'victim'.. Meanwhile my girl, looks after them and up at me like 'Mom, did you see that Bad dog?' lol

 

[GotSmart]

There's just too many variables to "certifying" a service dog, at least the FEDs would make it worse than it is imo.  

Auto inspection, $11
Drivers license $12
I am tired of people blaming the Government for things they have not done.  WE are the government.  $250 an hour for a trainer?  Not saying any more...To angry.  

 

[Headache]

I am tired of people blaming the Government for things they have not done.  WE are the government.  $250 an hour for a trainer?  Not saying any more...To angry.  

It's not "blame" it's fact.  Aside from dealing with various Departments of Bureaucracy it's also various organizations and groups working and arguing together for a common goal.  Usually it's as simple as attempting to be on the same page.  My only biotch is the length of time it takes, everything else is just a part of the process but the length of time, it doesn't "have" to be.  We clawed our way to the 2012 updates and now we're(I shouldn't include myself because I bowed out after the 2012 updates went live but it's habit so please forgive me) slogging through the next "round".  I'll give you some examples and FAIR WARNING to anyone reading this...for the sake of brevity AND K.I.S.S. I'm going to generalize A LOT:

Dealing with the government; making sure things are constitutional, legal and don't discriminate, etc, etc. takes lawyers and money, 2 things most charitable organizations(who are the bulk of the groups affected) don't have.  This takes time to gather especially from people who are in no hurry to deal with gray area legal issues that can cost millions of dollars to define into something useful.

Getting organizations to compromise can take an act of a higher deity, willful ignorance, moments of bullying and sometimes even yelling, screaming and crying...all of which I have done.  It can be very difficult to convey to someone else who can't see, will never understand, chooses not to be sympathetic to mental issues how yes, I am affected by disability just as they are and I am just as equally helped by having a service dog.  There were quite a few times that I was discriminated against by the mobility crowd as well as the blind crowd(sometimes being publicly insulted) because the bulk of my disabilities couldn't be seen(psychiatric) and therefore open for invalidation and being delegitimized by those whose issues were more obvious.  Yet at the same time it was very odd to be with a group of veterans with their dogs but somehow I wasn't "honest".  This takes time, a hell of a lot of patience and yes, biting my big fat lip.  Thankfully I have no teeth...

The ignorance of the public and even other dog handlers; it doesn't help.  Many well meaning people can actually stifle or even hurt our efforts because they generalize the laws they don't have at least a rudimentary understanding of, they can't/don't communicate it accurately(part of why I started this thread), rumors get started and some catch like wildfire and in turn this confuses everyone.  There were times where misinformation became so frequent we had to deal with it first in order to move forward.  That took valuable time from more important purposes because some "passionate" people would latch onto whatever rumor it was and not let go.

At the height of the travesty that became the new rulings for FWMI(flying while mentally ill) we had no less than thousands of people across the world in various government departments (FAA, DOT, DOJ, ACAA, Homeland Security[the foreign govt entities names escape me now but Canada, France and the UK were involved]) and various organizations(NAMI, PSDS, Inc, Delta Society[now Pet Partners]) just to name a very few were part of the process.  It takes a lot of work to get on the same schedule particularly if you must involve government legal beagles which could not be avoided due to the nature of this.

It was no small feat but in the end those with mental issues got the shaft by the FAA and ACAA and they are legally allowed to discriminate against us, even though drunk and disorderly fliers cause the vast majority of the issues on planes, not mentally ill people.

So yes, I do blame the government both for things they have done and things they have not done.  Because the issues of using service dogs, needing some form of standards that don't discriminate and actual punishment to those who falsely claim use of a service dog has been ongoing for decades.  The government entities we need to be involved in this drag their feet.  None of these rulings bring more money to their coffers and it costs them taxpayer money that they won't recoup.

IOW they are in no hurry to deal with issues that don't personally affect them or generate money in their direction.  This is part of the reason why it appears fakers get away with it so easily.  A lot of times they do because there is really spotty enforcement and education...from other government entities.  


That $250 an hour for a trainer, yeah that's common.  It costs an average minimum of about $25k for professional facilities to train dogs and the poor people who want one but can't afford one are understandably required to do their own fundraising.  Good luck with that if you are mentally ill, don't have a huge facebook following and/or your social anxiety is so bad you literally can't do it.  That's why most of us self train and why we must have standards that don't discriminate.  I'm expecting to be fertilizer by the time that happens.

 

[GotSmart]

Just saying.  JMHO ~~~ If you dont like a situation, work to change it.  Advocate, Lobby elected representatives,  Picket and protest.  write letters to the editor.  Ask the Gates foundation. 

Point out the dirty dog being passed off as a service animal.  

Just stop complaining that nothing is being done, or it is being done wrong.   You are the first step for change in this country.

 

[Headache]

Uh yeah, except we have been "working to change it" for decades. I have every right to complain when some jerk on the other end stalls for no reason even if only to vent frustration and move forward again. You are invalidating my frustration and feelings. If I am doing something even if it's as simple as creating this thread *I AM* trying to create change.

Why is it okay for you to complain about my feelings but I can't complain because someone else chooses to stall productivity? I feel like you are being unfairly judgemental in this aspect. Is there a reason for this?

Sometimes people need safe space to vent and it appears that you are trying not to allow for that, or at the very least not allowing that someone else has feelings about it. I started this thread for people to learn about the laws affecting SD handlers. A fair part of that is allowing for complaint because some of these laws or lack of them are unfair. I don't thinks it's fair to portray the government as an innocent "victim" and complainers as unproductive. Nor is it fair to tell me how I should do it.

 

[gcal]

Uh yeah, except we have been "working to change it" for decades.  I have every right to complain when some jerk on the other end stalls for no reason even if only to vent frustration and move forward again.  You are invalidating my frustration and feelings.  If I am doing something even if it's as simple as creating this thread  *I AM* trying to create change.  

Why is it okay for you to complain about my feelings but I can't complain because someone else chooses to stall productivity?  I feel like you are being unfairly judgemental in this aspect.  Is there a reason for this?  

Sometimes people need safe space to vent and it appears that you are trying not to allow for that, or at the very least not allowing that someone else has feelings about it.  I started this thread for people to learn about the laws affecting SD handlers.  A fair part of that is allowing for complaint because some of these laws or lack of them are unfair.  I don't thinks it's fair to portray the government as an innocent "victim" and complainers as unproductive.  Nor is it fair to tell me how I should do it.

Oh, brother.

 

[Gunny]

Headache, I don't speak for anyone but me but telling what the issues are without a suggestion of how to correct them gets a bit pointless after awhile. This is certainly a good place to vent, but along with the venting give us some realistic ideas of how to get the problems corrected. Try not to get frustrated, doesn't help and sometimes clouds judgement.

My take on this is that there should be licensed trainers who can issue a permit showing the animal is a service dog or a licensed support dog that has had obedience training and is able to interact with the public.

I know a specifically trained service dog can cost 10,000 and up but many charitable organizations help out people and even an antiquated and slow moving govt. agency, the VA, is considering the need for support dogs and if they decide the animals are worth the cost they will pick up the tab.

I stand by my earlier comment that if a emotional support animal helps just one veteran, out of the 22 a day, NOT commit suicide, I am all for them.

I say "vent away" but share some things a person not involved with your cause can do to help.

Rob

 

[DrJean]

Just saying.  JMHO ~~~ If you dont like a situation, work to change it.  Advocate, Lobby elected representatives,  Picket and protest.  write letters to the editor.  Ask the Gates foundation. 

Point out the dirty dog being passed off as a service animal.  

Just stop complaining that nothing is being done, or it is being done wrong.   You are the first step for change in this country.

Noble efforts of course!  But realize that as a disabled person we don't all have time and energy to do all those things. We need the public's assistance on these matters, including questioning and supporting the business owner trying to remove a "pet".  One of the reasons the disabled parking spots are closest to the door, that we get to "butt" in line at the post office and various other LITTLE allowances is because of the issues we already deal with in life that most people do not have.  It's a part of trying to even the playing field for us.  (Don't get me started on the people who feign disabilities...but I digress)...

The laws on the books are good enough IF they were all kept.  In fact, if the pet owners would follow them I probably wouldn't notice at all.  Dogs must be "housebroken" and under control at all times are 2 that would be wonderful to have them obey.  To follow rules of etiquette (your dog doesn't eat off the restaurant table), obeys basic commands of sit, lie, down, stay, quiet, come and is socialized so it doesn't bark (unless trained to alert), jump upon people or hump other dogs... are equally good.

I refrain from staying in hotels that accept pets because IN GENERAL it creates a horrible experience for me and my dog when other's have their pets.  I even had someone accuse my dog of barking in the hotel room when it was indeed a PET (at an MS retreat.)

We just need some help.  We don't want anything to be better than another, we want a level playing field, we have enough with which to contend just to have a good day. : 

PS I have "hidden" disabilities too... so don't judge me and I won't judge you.  I only share here to try and help the effort.  In reality, it's not fair that any person with a disability has to disclose just to get help, whether on a board or IRL.