Dog breed ideas?

[arctic cat]

Well I going to make an opinion based on my experience with working dogs and service animals.  I'm a certified service dog team with "Pilot" my 80 lbs Lab.  Having a service dog is a two way street.  The dog work for you but you have to provide something for him in exchange.    Service Dogs are not pet and they required attention and recurring training on almost on a daily basis.   Even that my dog know about 85 commands, I have to reinforced some of it almost everyday.    There is also the grooming.  A responsible dog handler make sure that his or her dog is properly groomed and presentable in public.  There is nothing more annoying that someone looking bad at me because of a bad experience with the many "fake service dogs".   Everything that I do I do it with my partner in mind.   If my partner can not go to certain places, neither do I.   We are a team and he get the best food and medical care that I can provide for him.   I exercised him on a daily basis and I make sure that he follow a strict diet to keep him agile.  

While he is a working animal he get to go swimming about 3 times a week and he get a lot play time in order to keep him fit.  I also have to understand that he is a dog and do things that dog do.     Also be aware that some dogs are not suitable to be service dogs,  Don't mean that they are bad dog but they are just not suitable for certain jobs.   Example: Labradors make poor guard or attack dogs.   "The Intelligence of Dogs" is a book on dog intelligence by Stanley Coren, a professor of canine psychology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. The book explains Coren's theories about the differences in intelligence between different breeds of dogs.

Coren defines three aspects of dog intelligence in the book: instinctive intelligence, adaptive intelligence, and working and obedience intelligence. Instinctive intelligence refers to a dog's ability to perform the tasks it was bred for, such as herding, pointing, fetching, guarding, or supplying companionship. Adaptive intelligence refers to a dog's ability to solve problems on its own. Working and obedience intelligence refers to a dog's ability to learn from humans.

Here is a list that you made go by  http://petrix.com/dogint/intelligence.html based on his research.

 

[IanC]

The only 2 experiences I've had with service dogs are: a deaf woman at a job I had who had 2 Corgis. I don't even recall what their function was (maybe to alert her when someone came in the door ), but those 2 stayed under the desk all day , every day. Surely there was some sort of electronic device that could have done what they did .

The second experience was my last job - my employer was a very wealthy man with a charitable foundation. I often accompanied him to presentations by organizations seeking grants. One was a service dog facility. The presentation -that they were extremely proud of - was a series of what I would consider party tricks. For example turning on a light switch. The wheelchair bound person would have to roll the chair to the switch and the dog would paw at it until it turned on. There are plenty of devices that could do that. Similarly opening a fridge door. If a person had enough ability to reach into the fridge to remove the item they wanted , then surely they could open the door too. What the presentation dogs did I could accomplish in a month with a dog from the shelter .
This place has a multi million dollar facility and they charge 20 grand for a dog. I don't know what they raise in donations and grants. They went heavily on the angle of service dogs for wounded veterans (the recipient of the dogs have to raise the money to purchase the dogs themselves ) and were starting a program of 'PTSD' dogs. I never asked what a 'PTSD' dog would do but I know the  Veterans Administration doesn't recognize such a thing. Overall , the place had an aura of something that existed for the purpose of fund raising. Non profits that rely so heavily on emotional appeal raise red flags for me . Anyway that left me with a bad taste and I imagine that the trainers of genuine service dogs would feel the same.

Yes, that book is outstanding - I think the best one written on the subject.

 

[gcal]

The only 2 experiences I've had with service dogs are: a deaf woman at a job I had who had 2 Corgis. I don't even recall what their function was (maybe to alert her when someone came in the door ), but those 2 stayed under the desk all day , every day. Surely there was some sort of electronic device that could have done what they did .

The second experience was my last job - my employer was a very wealthy man with a charitable foundation. I often accompanied him to presentations by organizations seeking grants. One was a service dog facility. The presentation -that they were extremely proud of - was a series of what I would consider party tricks. For example turning on a light switch. The wheelchair bound person would have to roll the chair to the switch and the dog would paw at it until it turned on. There are plenty of devices that could do that. Similarly opening a fridge door. If a person had enough ability to reach into the fridge to remove the item they wanted , then surely they could open the door too. What the presentation dogs did I could accomplish in a month with a dog from the shelter .
This place has a multi million dollar facility and they charge 20 grand for a dog. I don't know what they raise in donations and grants. They went heavily on the angle of service dogs for wounded veterans (the recipient of the dogs have to raise the money to purchase the dogs themselves ) and were starting a program of 'PTSD' dogs. I never asked what a 'PTSD' dog would do but I know the  Veterans Administration doesn't recognize such a thing. Overall , the place had an aura of something that existed for the purpose of fund raising. Non profits that rely so heavily on emotional appeal raise red flags for me . Anyway that left me with a bad taste and I imagine that the trainers of genuine service dogs would feel the same.

Yes, that book is outstanding - I think the best one written on the subject.

I have seen supposed service dogs sitting on chairs eating off a restaurant table and pulling on leashes trying to interfer with other customers at a store. I have seen them yapping in grocery carts and running around offleash because the owner expects it to play Lassie and run for help if she falls down. First, people could plainly see her. If she fell, they would see. Second, if a strange Rottweiler came charging at me in a lonesome area, I would shoot it, vest or no vest. I would not inquire as to what it wanted.

The ADA needs some clarification and standards.

 

[Ella1]

I want to thank Artic Cat for his post re service dogs. I had a service dog for 12 years—losst her just three years ago, June 11. Having a service animal IS a two way street. I trained my girl just about every day on a variety of tasks, things I did not need at the time, but this did two things: gave her ME, one on one time, and helped keep her mind sharp and focused on learning. She loved to learn, to help, to do her jobs.
“Everything that I do I do it with my partner in mind. If my partner can not go to certain places, neither do I. We are a team and he get the best food and medical care that I can provide for him. I exercised him on a daily basis and I make sure that he follow a strict diet to keep him agile.” Me too. It's necessary, and the reason I no longer have a dog: I am not able to give one what it needs.
Your dog looks wonderful, and I'm sure, as beautiful on the inside as on the outside.

I also want to thank IanC
Unfortunately many people are calling their dogs service dogs, or insinuating they are, when indeed they are not. It is up to employers/business owners to “determine” if a dog is a service dog. Of course the employer /BO really can't determine that, other than through questioning and observation, and, if dog behaves inappropriately, can be removed. The shopper has access, but a misbehaving dog can be denied access, even though it is a service dog.

I agree, though I have never done the numbers: Seems to me that the cost of the trained service animal is way out of line. I never kept track of the time I spent training my girl. Sometimes an hour or two a day, sometimes less or more, sometimes none at all. I never charged myself for that time or work, either. Or the facility, either my house or the local park. Then there is cost of food-average $100 a month. I used part of her food as training rewards.

My girl was a mobility dog. She could pull me forward via collar, with or without leash, and the either the front ring or rear ring of her X-Back harness, and she learned/knew what was expected of her wherever we were. She would support me either right at my side, or, if she were out in front, she would lean into the harness while I rested against it. And she would stand as needed until I could breathe again.
I trained some tasks as first steps toward other, harder tasks, or for future need. Not a good idea to need help, and have to train the dog to at then. Better to do it first.
Besides, the dogs generally love to learn, to use what they've learned.
I suppose part of what the orgs train is to show off. I was owner trainer, and as such, made sure she had good food, meds as needed, grooming, etc. Having a dog is a commitment.
Some people here in AZ were abusing the access, and many places we went started asking for ID. That made it a bit difficult.
And thanks to gcal.
http://www.abilitycenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ACT-ServiceAnimal-FAQ1.pdf

I do know that happens—dogs eating at the table. That is just rude. I was in a grocery store and heard a dog—sounded very young—yipping and wouldn't quit. I finally called for the manager and told him he could have the dog removed. He said he couldn't, it was a service dog, and the owner, in a wheelchair had papers. I told him to check the ADA business owners guide. Doesn't matter if the dog OR owners had papers. The dog was being disruptive. Actually, she wasn't training anything, the dog was highly stressed and needed to leave. The owner should have known better, should have a better idea of how to train. I wonder if the dog at the table would be disruptive? When we were in restuarants, my big girl went under the table, on a mat I carried for her, and she stayed there until we left. Mosst people never knew she was there.

I had to laugh about “playing Lassie”. I worked to teach my girl to do these things if I fell/passed out when we were out:
She was immediately to lay at the top of my head, out of the way of EMTs.
She was to sit up and bark to call attention to our dilemna, not go running for help.
I never needed that help when we were out, but I did at home. She saved my life that day, first by finding and fetching my O2 hose.I don't always need it, and I ran to the machine to turn it on, the hose itself was in another room. Then, when I could breathe, she dragged me to another room for emergency meds. Then I passed out on the tile floor. When I came to, she was leaning against the top of my head. I couldn't get up, and knew I was going under again, so askssed her to lay against my back, which had never happened, but she did, and kept me warm until I came to again and was able to get up.

So even though a task is not needed, or may be seen or thought of as a trick, the training is valuable. It keeps a solid connection between dog and handler, keeps the dog mentally nimble and probably to leap to new needs faster. I had never asked her to lay against my back. I was really cold and couldn't get/be warm otherwise. She did it, and leaned against me.

As to the ADA and clarifications, better brains than mine have considered individual rights and have written a law that does what is needed. No matter how any law is written, some people will do what they can to side step it. That makes it more difficult for people who actually need the access rights.

 

[IanC]

The last group of dogs I trained was in 1986, and it was my experience with them that completely changed my outlook on the human /animal relationship. The picture posted is of part of that group. I was hired by a company in Phoenix that provided shows for theme parks. The show concept they had sold to this particular park was a 20 minute scripted show (the script had been written by non-dog people, so you can imagine ) I had 3 months to find suitable dogs (these all came from public shelters in Phoenix - they didn't look like this when I got them, so there was some rehab involved too ). They were all trained to perform a full 20 minutes of behaviors (used to be called 'tricks) in 3 months . Within 5 months they were performing completely without direction .
Anyway , when I arrived in New England to begin the contract I discovered that the show was scheduled 5 times a day, seven days a week for the whole summer. So, despite my protests I had to put them through their show despite rain or heat and keep up their enthusiasm for their work (never mind 2 hours of grooming every day). Maintaining a quality of life for them in addition made for 14 hour days.

The dogs belonged to the company and when I brought them back to Phoenix at the end of the summer, much to my dismay they were disposed of as pets with hardly any screening of the new owners. The whole experience made me question the ethics of asking any animal to give up full autonomy of it's  life for human benefit. If it is done, it definitely has to be a two way street and very necessary with no alternative. Performing in shows definitely doesn't meet that criteria .

Apart from a home training service I had for a while I lost all interest in formal training. I have found that, while a much slower process, a well bonded dog will always learn to fit human routine. My dogs now wear a collar only to go to the vet and other rare circumstances. I never give commands, only speak in a low normal voice. They are expected to do nothing other than be themselves and everyone comments on how well they are 'trained ' - and that's with no conscious training at all. So after many years of high level training of dogs and horses I have completely separated myself from anything to do with the field.
 If I sounded overly critical of Kitt's plan I apologize to her. I was speaking through my own guilt at having being part of the commercial training business.

 

[arctic cat]

. I never asked what a 'PTSD' dog would do but I know the  Veterans Administration doesn't recognize such a thing.

Well the Veterans Administration don't recognized a lot of things out of convenience.   They did not recognized Radiation issues until over half of those veterans were gone.   The samething with Agent Orange.   Is not the same to compensate 400K veterans or wait and for them to pass away and then compensate 20k almost at the end of their life.   The love to medicate people and that is because is an awesome business for the pharmaceutical companies.   Currently they are beginning to open up about cannabis treatment for veterans.  The service dog for PTSD they are opening up too.   The trick that you said about turning the light switch come on handy when I have nightmares.    The dog actually climb in my bed, lick my face and soon as I open wake up he goes and turn the switch for the lights on.   That tooka while to master as there have to bee a major bonding between the handler and the dog.    The waking me up serve to break the cycle .   There is many other things he do to break certain cycles such as depression and allowing me to go to the store at normal human time.

 

[Kitt]

Thank you arctic cat for your absolutely wonderful additions! I agree whole heartedly! I tend to have a hard time communicating myself clearly over text, especially when I can't repeatedly edit it to clarify further lol.

A SD is absolutely a two way street! They help me and in return I give them the best food and medical care I can, lots of love and affection and play time, and the best life I could possibly give them. That's my goal right there!

I realize I could've phrased a lot of my responses better but it can be difficult for me to properly express myself when not speaking face to face.

I've received a lot of great advice and suggestions and I'm kind of just sorting through it all still haha. But I just had to post and thank you for your comments!

 

[arctic cat]

Thank you arctic cat for your absolutely wonderful additions! I agree whole heartedly! I tend to have a hard time communicating myself clearly over text, especially when I can't repeatedly edit it to clarify further lol.

A SD is absolutely a two way street! They help me and in return I give them the best food and medical care I can, lots of love and affection and play time, and the best life I could possibly give them. That's my goal right there!

I realize I could've phrased a lot of my responses better but it can be difficult for me to properly express myself when not speaking face to face.

I've received a lot of great advice and suggestions and I'm kind of just sorting through it all still haha. But I just had to post and thank you for your comments!

You are so welcome,  we are in here to help each other.

 

[Kitt]

I have seen supposed service dogs sitting on chairs eating off a restaurant table and pulling on leashes trying to interfer with other customers at a store. I have seen them yapping in grocery carts and running around offleash because the owner expects it to play Lassie and run for help if she falls down. First, people could plainly see her. If she fell, they would see. Second, if a strange Rottweiler came charging at me in a lonesome area, I would shoot it, vest or no vest. I would not inquire as to what it wanted.

The ADA needs some clarification and standards.

I'm a barista at Starbucks and I've seen several fake service dogs, and when I brought it up with my higher upd at the store, they said per ADA we can't do anything and I'm trying to explain the ADA and that if the dog is barking at customers, or licking the tables, or otherwise disrupting business we can ask them to remove the animal. They may come back and finish their coffee or whatever but their animal cannot.

But they won't hear a word of it. They hear "service dog" and that dog then has the right to act however they please. Otherwise the owner screams "discrimination"

 

[Kitt]

So after having the facebook group "Service dog for invisible disabilities" was brought up on this forum, i joined the group and checked it out I made a post about my choice of lifestyle and that i still needed a PSD. Several people were judgmental and latched on to the "living in a van" and apparently the only dog i should get is a Chihuahua, since they are going to be "cramped in a van all day"  

I was surprised that others shut that down and jumped to my defense. I also had some people comment who were planning on travelling out of their small pickup with their SD or loved tiny houses and micro living, or had RV fantasies of their own, and were so enthusiastic about helping me and wanted me to keep them updated!

I also had a LOT of good breed recommendations, by people who have been training for years, had had various SD for years, etc. A breed recommended to me over and over was a smooth collie. Now a collie (like lassie) would've been my absolute top pick no questions asked no other breeds considered, but I scratched them because of ALL THAT FUR!!!!!!

Well turns out a smooth collie is exactly the same as a normal collie (called a rough collie) but with MUCH shorter fur! And a litter can have both Smooth and Rough collies! It's just one has the gene for short hair! So I'm looking in to smooth collie breeders, since they aren't a real well known breed.

Just giving y'all an update!

P.S. included a picture of a smooth collie. they look kind of goofy but i love it!

 

[mayble]

There are many dogs that open doors (refrigerator and otherwise) for their handlers who don't have the strength to do it, particularly from a seated position.  Just because a person can't open the frig doesn't mean he can't make a sandwich. 

FWIW, it would be nice if folks spent less time making rules and judging others when it doesn't concern them.  A dog that is a danger or a nuisance in public should not be in public, whether it's an alleged service dog or not and businesses are within their rights to remove a service animal that causes problems.  Business owners ought to be more assertive on that front.
By the same token, a well behaved dog should be welcomed anywhere even if it's only "job" is being a companion.

 

[DannyB1954]

You say" My stepmom was a professional service dog trainer" . Have you asked her about a suitable breed?
I think unless the dog is already trained, it is a gamble that they will be able to learn what you require. Not every seeing eye puppy becomes a seeing eye dog. What happens if you get a dog and it does not learn?

 

[Kitt]

You say" My stepmom was a professional service dog trainer" . Have you asked her about a suitable breed?
I think unless the dog is already trained, it is a gamble that they will be able to learn what you require. Not every seeing eye puppy becomes a seeing eye dog. What happens if you get a dog and it does not learn?

I have talked to her about it, but she really doesn't think i need one. When I get the prospect I won't live in the same state as her, so I am planning on using what I've learned from her, as well as puppy obedience classes, and seeking out a professional trainer.

You're right, not all seeing eye prospects make it. But programs have been known to wash dogs (remove them from training) for reasons such s they don't like their nails being clipped, or are afraid of rain. Sounds silly but it's true. There are much bigger expectations for a seeing eye dog than a psych service dog. But it is still a very real possibility that the prospect will be washed, in that case I will work with the breeder to rehome the dog, unless i am able to keep them and the new prospect.