Faking Service Dogs Hurt Real SD Teams(The Law)

[Gunny]

That's the one....Here is a link.. I saw her when the Dane won a 'Hero' dog award and she walked on stage with him. It was hard to watch cause an old grouch like me was crying.

http://www.today.com/pets/service-dog-gets-best-day-ever-helping-young-girl-walk-t79021

 

[DannyB1954]

The difference between a service dog and a pet is opinion. Many dogs do naturally what one would want a service dog to do. Just because the dog isn't trained by a company or organization does not limit what the dog is able to do for it's person. Yes there are specific things a blind or deaf person might need, but that does not mean that dogs not trained for that are not service dogs.

There is a reason why dogs are not certified by the Government. It would be like trying to determine what is the exact shade of grey and then getting everyone else to agree.

 

[TrainChaser]

I thought service dogs actually DID something, like alerting his person to an impending seizure so he could get out of the middle of the street and maybe into a business before he went down. And I thought Emotional Support Animals are just for theraputic companionship which effect is completely in the mind of the owner -- the dog merely exists and doesn't have to actually DO anything. The ESA could be a stuffed 4" pink tarantula if the owner had it firmly in his/her mind that they would be emotionally under control as long as they had it in their pocket.

 

[Headache]

So....why don't we(they) have some kind of standard certification to make it a bit more objective? Seems like this could rectify most of OP and others problems with what is real and what is fake when it comes to service dogs.

We've been trying but there are a lot of entities involved as well as differences of opinion.  I was involved in trying to get standards set for about 10 years and there were many others before me who worked for it in the 2 decades before that.  It's been a long, frustrating process.  We were lucky we got some of the changes that we did in the 2011 updates to the ADA.

The 2 largest hurdles regarding this has been defining training standards that are inclusive to all trainers and implementation.  Some entities are for profit businesses so they have a personal stake in seeing self-trainers not included.  Some self-trainers shouldn't be included.  There are also training methods which would need to be inclusive.  I recently had a gal with 3 years of training experience and a graduate certificate from a training school try to invalidate my 25+ years of experience because I'm not certified; yet the training methods I use have been successful for thousands of years.  Then there is the issue of how to implement them while protecting the disabled person's privacy as it is against the law to ask someone to identify their disabilities except during medical treatment.

As far as what is real and what is fake, again, there are certain regulations put in place to assist in determining a handlers claims.  Is it solid?  Nope.  The most clear indication that a dog isn't legit is behavior.  If the dog is not behaving properly it doesn't matter how legit the dog is, the law states the business or property owner can ask the handler to remove their dog and offer to serve them without it.  If they refuse to leave the police can be called to remove them.

If more business owners, employees and other collateral personnel were educated regarding these regulations I do believe wholeheartedly that we'd see less abuse by fakers and less refusals of service towards legitimate teams.

 

[Richard]

The difference between a service dog and a pet is opinion.

Notice that the title of this thread includes "the law". That defines the context of this information: LEGAL opinion.

In other words, calling the definition an 'opinion' doesn't diminish the weight of that opinion in the legal context. In fact, if push comes to shove and the question of a service dog's qualifications become a matter of legal dispute, the legal definition is how a court will decide the matter.

It can be fun to argue over semantics and abstractions but ultimately, context is what matters most.

 

[Headache]

Training.

That takes months of training.

It takes years of training.  Many will start with the Canine Good Citizen from the AKC and it's a solid foundation to start with but in order for the dog to nail it takes a good 2-3 years of training.

Task training is an entirely different thing as a trainer must be adept at identifying natural traits in a dog and work out a way to cue them to do them on command.  It's not just go fetch this or that.  It's quite a process that can also take years if the dog doesn't wash.

 

[Headache]

I thought service dogs actually DID something, like alerting his person to an impending seizure so he could get out of the middle of the street and maybe into a business before he went down.  And I thought Emotional Support Animals are just for theraputic companionship which effect is completely in the mind of the owner -- the dog merely exists and doesn't have to actually DO anything.  The ESA could be a stuffed 4" pink tarantula if the owner had it firmly in his/her mind that they would be emotionally under control as long as they had it in their pocket.

Technically and according to the law you are correct except on the stuffed pink tarantula.  The law only applies to living animals.  However, in regard to the state of certifications and the companies selling them these days without any vetting process, you could certify that tarantula and get away with it. That's why most certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and usually it's you doing the printing after they get your money.

 

[DannyB1954]

Notice that the title of this thread includes "the law". That defines the context of this information: LEGAL opinion.

In other words, calling the definition an 'opinion' doesn't diminish the weight of that opinion in the legal context. In fact, if push comes to shove and the question of a service dog's qualifications become a matter of legal dispute, the legal definition is how a court will decide the matter.

It can be fun to argue over semantics and abstractions but ultimately, context is what matters most.

There is no "legal standard" of what a service dog is, so the idea of a legal opinion of one does not exist. A legal opinion of law is based on law. No law, no opinion.

It goes back to who certified the certifiers. Anyone can print certificates. I can certify myself for anything, as long as it does not conflict with law. If the law says I need x amount of years in the trade or craft, well that is what I need before I can claim certification. If there is no requirement under law, I am qualified just by saying so.

 

[Headache]

Notice that the title of this thread includes "the law". That defines the context of this information: LEGAL opinion.

I posted the legal definition of what the ADA considers a service animal.  Are you sure you aren't confusing definition and standard?  That's how I'm reading your post so please correct me if I'm wrong.  An opinion is subjective, such as with guidelines.  The definition gives us a base to work with and is not subjective.  A service dog MUST meet those minimum requirements.  That is not opinion.

 

[Cammalu]

I have been thinking about getting a service dog for some time. My doctor mentions it to me once in a while. With all this discussion going on I hope I can find a legitimate source when I'm ready if I ever am.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[GotSmart]

]GotSmart Wrote: 
Training.

That takes months of training.

It takes years of training.  Many will start with the Canine Good Citizen from the AKC and it's a solid foundation to start with but in order for the dog to nail it takes a good 2-3 years of training.

Task training is an entirely different thing as a trainer must be adept at identifying natural traits in a dog and work out a way to cue them to do them on command.  It's not just go fetch this or that.  It's quite a process that can also take years if the dog doesn't wash.
[/quote]

Training.

A real service dog will not bark unless there is danger.  It does not whine or beg.  it actually works as a team with its person, and not as a pet.  That takes months of training.


That is what I really said...  I was referring to the training to work together as a team.  I know the training starts as a puppy, and even then many dogs will not make it to the second stage of dedicated training, much less the 3rd stage with the human they will be partnered with.

In a former life I was involved with a 4H group that raised puppies for a training facility for the blind.  That was 35 years ago!  Where did the time go?

 

[DannyB1954]

I just learned there is a difference between a service dog and an emotional support dog. I thought they were the same. Emotional support dogs do not have the same rights under law as service dogs.
I googled PTSD service dog and got a dozen sites that will sell you a certificate, ID , badge, anything you want. I also found this from the Department of Veteran Affairs. http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/treatment/cope/dogs_and_ptsd.asp

 

[Richard]

I posted the legal definition of what the ADA considers a service animal.  Are you sure you aren't confusing definition and standard?  That's how I'm reading your post so please correct me if I'm wrong.  An opinion is subjective, such as with guidelines.  The definition gives us a base to work with and is not subjective.  A service dog MUST meet those minimum requirements.  That is not opinion.

What I mean by 'opinion' is as follows:

"In law, a legal opinion is usually a written explanation by a judge or group of judges that accompanies an order or ruling in a case, laying out the rationale and legal principles for the ruling.

"Opinions are usually published at the direction of the court, and to the extent they contain pronouncements about what the law is and how it should be interpreted, they reinforce, change, establish, or overturn legal precedent. If a court decides that an opinion should be published, the opinion is included in a volume from a series of books called law reports (or reporters in the United States). Published opinions of courts are also collectively referred to as case law, which is one of the major sources of law in common law legal systems." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_opinion

In a roundabout way, I'm agreeing that the ADA definition holds. I chose to use the word "opinion" in my reply because Danny used that word to imply that the definition was less weighty because it's 'just' an opinion.

I think it's fair to say that most laws, statutes, rules, etc., are 'opinions', but in the context of the legal system, such opinions are no trifling matter.

Sorry that the intent of my earlier comment wasn't clearer. My only internet access is via my cell phone so sometimes I strive too hard to be concise, sacrificing clarity in the process.

 

[ccbreder]

There are many People deathly afraid of dogs. What rights do these People have?

 

[Queen]

They have the right to recognize and work on their fears. I was terrified of most men for a lot of my youth, I worked through it since no one offered to make sure I'd never have to engage with one.

 

[cyndi]

There are many People deathly afraid of dogs. What rights do these People have?

They have the right to expect that service dogs are well trained andfocused solely on their handler. They have the right to know that unless they choose to move into the space occupied by the handler and dog team they will be completely ignored; that is, they do not exist in a service dog's world, when the dog is working)

 

[Headache]

I know the training starts as a puppy...

The two I've trained I started at 2 years old, one shelter adoption and one someone had abandoned.  The abandoned one served me well until he was 15 years old.  There are also a couple of training facilities that train rescues but the names escape me now.

This is why standards are hard to set for something like this.  It's overwhelming the amount of variables there are.

I just learned there is a difference between a service dog and an emotional support dog. I thought they were the same.

Alright now, I know my first posts made up a novel but it was in there!   :angel:

There are many People deathly afraid of dogs. What rights do these People have?

Unfortunately the most logical way to answer this also comes across rather callous; they don't have "rights" over a service dog team anymore than someone being afraid of wheelchairs has the "right" to ask someone in a chair to not use it. They just don't have any.

The reason for this is that once a dog is trained to become a service dog it legally isn't just a "dog" when it's working.  It becomes a tool or device a disabled person uses in order to have as normal a life as possible.  It becomes no different than a wheelchair.  Issues like being allergic, fear and others don't fall within the scope of the law because they can be mitigated without it such as an allergic person and the service dog team being in different parts of a store, a fearful person being able to walk away or avoiding the team, etc.

Service dog teams have to be protected under the law because of the discrimination and refusals of service they face.  Those with allergies and phobias aren't being refused service.

Those with fears can avoid the team but as others suggested, it's best for the fearful person to work on that fear and not be controlled by it irregardless of whether they come in contact with service dog teams or not.

 

[ccbreder]

They have the right to expect that service dogs are well trained and focused solely on their handler. They have the right to know that unless they choose to move into the space occupied by the handler and dog team they will be completely ignored; that is, they do not exist in a service dog's world, when the dog is working)

Precisely, however I know of situations that this did not happen.

 

[GotSmart]

Here is a story about the reality of living with a SD. 

https://us.yahoo.com/gma/dog-traini...mpressive-231205255--abc-news-topstories.html

And though Harlow gets plenty of time to "have fun" and "just be a family dog" at home, Blake said it's important for people not to treat Harlow like a pet when she's out working as a service dog.
"If you see a service dog in public, you should treat it like a wheelchair," she explained. "You never know when distracting them can put their handler's life at risk."
She added, "If you wouldn't stare at or pet a wheelchair, you shouldn't stare at or pet a service dog. And if you wouldn't ask someone in a wheelchair why they have one, you shouldn't ask someone with a service dog why they have one either."

 

[arctic cat]

I'm a disabled vet and I have formally trained service animal.  I love my service dog, but sometime my service dog have cause me unwanted attention I travel with my service animal everywhere and like it was explained before is considered prosthesis just like a wheel chair, an oxygen tank, or a cane.  I only had problems with access in the island territory of Puerto Rico, and currently that is going thru litigation.    My dog is quite large and he is well behave.    Like person he does have his days better than other.     When we first became I have some issues with the dog that was all me not knowing how to handle him.  

To avoid problems, I keep him well groom, and keep him always marked.   Unfortunately some people bring dogs thru airports and other places and I can tell they are not real service animal, which make difficult for people like myself to get access.   That is my two cents in this subject.