Drinking Stream/Lake Water?

[Bster13]

From my research, a little bit of fluoride in drinking water is beneficial, but that's a topic for another time. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

 

[Mobilesport]

I worked at a water plant back in 2005 , there was a scientists that had a bucket outside of his Lab that he used to take samples of the citys water supply  , he would throw a live fish in the bucket and the fish either stayed alive or he died , i think that's how he figured out whether his chemical mixtures were right.
What this means I don't know but at the time it was kind of spooky.

 

[SoulRaven]

I would NEVER drink water from any river, lake, stream, or any other source that is unknown for what is in it. And in my opinion, you don't know what is in that water unless you have it tested.
I think using the filtering you are speaking of or any other filtering except by a municipal water purification plant is taking unnecessary chances with your health. This is not being paranoid or worrying too much.......it's just common sense.
There are too many places out there to get good clean safe water to be taking needless chances of getting sick. If you are going to be out for awhile just make sure that you bring enough good drinking water to last for awhile. When you start to run out head back to civilization and get more.
You only have one life, so take care of it as best that you can.
If you have your health you have everything.

 

[highdesertranger]

Stevesway I go to areas where so called "safe" drinking water takes 1 day to get and a long day at that. actually I would trust water put through a quality filter system more then I would trust your "safe" source. would you drink water from Flint, MI. it was considered safe until the lid got blown off. I have gotten water from water companies that taste like sh.., well you know what. it's considered "safe". I just can't agree that any water coming from a spigot, is easy to get or safe. highdesertranger

 

[TrainChaser]

There are two main kinds of water contaminants, organic (parasites, bacteria & viruses) and inorganic/chemical (pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers from farms, industrial contaminants, and petroleum-based).  There is also radiological contamination, but I don't think it is excessively common.

Virtually all of the parasites, parasite eggs, bacteria and viruses can be killed by boiling for one minute (this is disinfection).  Two of the most common problems in N. America are Giardia and Cryptosporidium.  Most of these are killed at temps below boiling, but a rolling boil for one minute should kill everything; if Hepatitis A is a possibility (it is more resistant), boil for ten minutes and then let sit, covered, for several minutes.  Cover the pot of water with a lid if you have one (heats faster and uses less fuel).  Remember:  "Big Bubbles = No Troubles".  If you're carrying a pressure cooker, use it -- it's fast and reliable.  

Chemical contamination can be filtered by use of Granular Activated Charcoal (GAC) filters.  These remove organic pollutants, chemicals, and radioactive particles by adsorption.   But they do not remove all bacteria and viruses, so after filtering, it would be good to boil it afterward. These will eventually need replacing.

Here is a good article about wilderness water:  https://doctorrennie.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/water-disinfection-in-the-wilderness/
 
All mammals are susceptible to Giardia, and most are believed susceptible to
Cryptosporidium, so give your pets the boiled water, too.  If your dog drinks out of every puddle available, symptoms of both of these is watery diarrhea and nausea, same as with people.

 

[DannyB1954]

I worked at a water plant back in 2005 , there was a scientists that had a bucket outside of his Lab that he used to take samples of the citys water supply  , he would throw a live fish in the bucket and the fish either stayed alive or he died , i think that's how he figured out whether his chemical mixtures were right.
What this means I don't know but at the time it was kind of spooky.

Back when they used chlorine in city water it would evaporate in a day and was safe to put in a fish tank. Then to save money they went to chloramine. it never evaporates. You have to add a neutralizer before putting it in a fish tank. You drink it and it gets passed on in your urine. 

The filters that I looked at say that they will not do viruses. Fortunately in the wild they are uncommon. As far as a mountain stream, better hope there isn't cattle grazing upstream. E Coli is nasty stuff.

Besides boiling you can treat your own water with bleach,      or pool shock, ( dried form of bleach).       Tastes bad, but will kill the nasties. Bleach has a year shelf life. Pool shock is the preppers friend it is good for years. to get some  of the bleach back out you can pour it back and forth between containers and some of the bleach will evaporate out. 

Another interesting video about 4 ways to treat water.  She talks about using an ultraviolet light to kill the nasties. Takes electricity, but if you have it, may be a good way to go.

 

[DannyB1954]

This video says all you need is 5 or 6 hours and a clear bottle.

 

[TrainChaser]

The video is showing the SODIS (SOlar DISinfection of water). It is (unfortunately) most effective between 35º north and 35º south of the equator. In the U.S., I think that's about up to Oklahoma City. The water has to get up to 150ºF to pasturize the harmful organics. Some people have said that laying the bottle(s) in a shiny disposable aluminum pan may increase the temperature, but I've never tried it. A soil temperature thermometer is a handy thing for this (it covers the temp range you're interested in) -- I paid less than $10 for mine.

 

[ccbreder]

I'm not going to read through this thread. It's not you, I have an appointment. One of those straw thing filters like invented by Jimmy Carter would be fine for a few times in the wilderness. But fine filtered purified water is available in so many places I just buy my drinking water. Too much scht to go wrong other wise.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Some notes and thoughts on purifying wilderness water:

 A micron is 1 thousandth of a millimeter.

Water filter cartidges will be marked in microns – 20 microns, 10 microns, 5 microns, etc.  The best I've run across is a ceramic filter cartridge from Doulton rated as 0.9 microns.
 
The following information was cribbed from a water filter test that appeared in a 2009 edition of OVERLAND JOURNAL.

“PROTOZOA:  Protozoa are generally the largest, and are responsible for such lovely conditions as amoebic dysentery and giardiasis.  These are small (2 to 15 microns) hard-shelled cysts that can live out of water for a short time and are usually transmitted through a fecal/oral pathway – in other words, from drinking water in which an infected animal has defecated.  Most modern filters can physically remove protozoa, which are very resistant to chemical treatment.  Cryptosporidium is resistant to iodine and chlorine, each of which needs significant contact time (on the order of four hours) to be at all effective.
 
BACTERIA:  Bacteria vary in size greatly (0.6 microns in diameter to over 100 microns long) and cause cholera, typhoid fever, dysentery, and salmonellosis.  They are single cell organisms that are common to our body, but the pathogenic varieties need to be removed from water.  Larger pore size filters are unable to remove small bacteria, but chemicals such as iodine or chlorine, as well as ultra-violet radiation, are quite effective.

VIRUSES:  Viruses are the smallest of all the biological pathogens.  These are parasitic particles comprising a strand of DNA or RNA that invade living cells and redirect the cell to produce more viruses.  On the order of 0.02 to 0.1 microns in size, they present a challenge to remove physically, but are susceptible to chemical attack, and can be killed by iodine, chlorine, and radiation.  Viruses are responsible for such aliments as hepatitis A, polio, and gastroenteritis.”
 
Based on the above info, I came to the conclusion that the best approach was a two-stage one.  Treat the water with chlorine bleach, and then use an activated carbon filter that would remove the chlorine taste as well as the protozoa and, hopefully, any other chemicals present, too.

 

[bigsallysmom]

It's not just drinking the water either. Last week I was fly fishing in Red River, NM. Pulled out some snacks and was eating them when I realized I was touching the food with my hands which had been holding fly line.
Had intestinal issues the next day. Can't say that that was the problem but it's making me carry alcohol wipes and not touch my snacks.

 

[DannyB1954]

Ultra-violet radiation also has a pitfall. The water must be clear. If there is any turbidity in the fluid, the light will not reach the organisms.

 

[Vagabound]

Been trying to learn about solar disinfection (SODIS) of water for drinking.  Some of these questions came up in a different thread, but the answers seem to fit this thread better.

This info comes from the gurus who did the SODIS research, from their 2002 report.

Using SODIS:

* Does the water need to be clear for SODIS to work?  

Depends on how you define "clear".  Technically, no, but it works much better if it is clear.  There is some maximum threshold for turbidity, beyond which it is not really effective.


* What kills the creatures in the water, UV or heat?  

Both.  At lower SODIS temps, UV-A mainly, aided by heat.  As the temp goes up, the synergistic effect is stronger.


* Why not heat mainly?  

The water never gets hot enough.  It is all time-based.  Longer time exposure can be effective at lower temperatures.  However, for instant results (fire, not SODIS), it takes about 160F (70C) to kill most things, and about 180C (80C) to kill fecal coliforms (animal and people poop in the water, which are the main transmitters of lots of nasty stuff).


* Does ambient air temperature change the effectiveness of SODIS?  

Yes.  Higher is better.  Details should come from the report.  Too long for a forum post.


* Which works better, a clear bottle or black bottle or both?  SODIS people recommend half and half, clear side toward the sun, if climate is hot enough.  Otherwise, stick with clear bottles because you're mostly dependent on UV-A at that point.  But all cases other than the worst, avoid colored bottles.

The SODIS research report is great to read, but it's an 88-page report (5MB+ for low-bandwidth people).  The key pages are 4, 9, 11, 12, 15, 16, 18, 19, and 28.

http://www.sodis.ch/methode/anwendung/ausbildungsmaterial/dokumente_material/manual_e.pdf

Vagabound

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I would NEVER drink water from any river, lake, stream, or any other source that is unknown for what is in it. And in my opinion, you don't know what is in that water unless you have it tested.
I think using the filtering you are speaking of or any other filtering except by a municipal water purification plant is taking unnecessary chances with your health. This is not being paranoid or worrying too much.......it's just common sense.
There are too many places out there to get good clean safe water to be taking needless chances of getting sick. If you are going to be out for awhile just make sure that you bring enough good drinking water to last for awhile. When you start to run out head back to civilization and get more.
You only have one life, so take care of it as best that you can.
If you have your health you have everything.

This is just silly.  Even if municipal water is tested at the source (the plant) how do you know what happens to it after it's gone going through the miles and miles of rusted out, leaking, lead lined pipes to get to your faucet?

I have well water that comes from 250 feet below the surface and only has to run through about 50 feet of pipes once it reaches the surface (Pipes I know the condition of, age, and material) and I can guarantee it's better quality than any city provided water you drink.    

That aside, you can absolutely filter your own water in the back country that is perfectly safe.  Filtering water is not rocket science.  In most instances filtering is just an over abundance of caution anyways.

 

[TrainChaser]

ERLH:  Some years back, a man turned the faucet on and filled a glass (municipal water supply), and as he raised it to drink, he saw something moving.  Looking closer, he set the glass down and called the water company and explained what he was seeing.

The receptionist said they were having a bit of a problem with midge fly larvae.

"MIDGE FLY LARVAE, MY A$$," he roared back at her.  "I KNOW MAGGOTS WHEN I SEE THEM!"

But really, Americans have been taught to fear everything:  water, strangers, guns, flashlights they thought were guns, small pocket knives, etc.  I guess some people would rather die than drink from the nearby stream.  It's just knee-jerk reactions, with no thinking involved.

The more you know, the more options you have.

 

[SternWake]

Once, deep in Costa Rican national park, I was forced to drink water from a creek, but we had some bleach.

Months later I was getting stomach pains and assumed the worst, but it was stress. 4 months later I sold most everything and went travelling overseas for a long time.

Another surf trip I was hiking the norcal lost coast. I was using an older ceramic filter when two rangers came by, and just stuck their water bottles directly in the same water I was filtering and drinking it while asking if I had the bear proof containers and acquired the proper permits.

I still have the MSR ceramic filter from the late 90's, but it requires pumping, and is slow, but I did employ it when travelling to save money on bottled water, or just for the convenience of not having to go buy bottled water.

Not sure of the micron rating.

As far as tap water goes, I in no way trust the local municipalities to do what they claim to do. Everything has been stripped to bare bones minimum requirements at each and every stage, and when that fails they can simply rely on corruption, or just change the rules/limits as required so that the new substandard is still within the guidelines.

Trusting that any government system it is not corrupt, and your best interests are being looked out for, is incredibly naive.

That ship has sailed. You are a disposable tax base

 

[Richard]

This is a 22m 27s video that adds context to this conversation: in short, you're likely contaminated well beyond your worst imaginings, and parts-per-BILLION matter.

[video=youtube]

 

[Mobilesport]

Some notes and thoughts on purifying wilderness water:

 A micron is 1 thousandth of a millimeter.

Water filter cartidges will be marked in microns – 20 microns, 10 microns, 5 microns, etc.  The best I've run across is a ceramic filter cartridge from Doulton rated as 0.9 microns.
 
The following information was cribbed from a water filter test that appeared in a 2009 edition of OVERLAND JOURNAL.

“PROTOZOA:  Protozoa are generally the largest, and are responsible for such lovely conditions as amoebic dysentery and giardiasis.  These are small (2 to 15 microns) hard-shelled cysts that can live out of water for a short time and are usually transmitted through a fecal/oral pathway – in other words, from drinking water in which an infected animal has defecated.  Most modern filters can physically remove protozoa, which are very resistant to chemical treatment.  Cryptosporidium is resistant to iodine and chlorine, each of which needs significant contact time (on the order of four hours) to be at all effective.
 
BACTERIA:  Bacteria vary in size greatly (0.6 microns in diameter to over 100 microns long) and cause cholera, typhoid fever, dysentery, and salmonellosis.  They are single cell organisms that are common to our body, but the pathogenic varieties need to be removed from water.  Larger pore size filters are unable to remove small bacteria, but chemicals such as iodine or chlorine, as well as ultra-violet radiation, are quite effective.

VIRUSES:  Viruses are the smallest of all the biological pathogens.  These are parasitic particles comprising a strand of DNA or RNA that invade living cells and redirect the cell to produce more viruses.  On the order of 0.02 to 0.1 microns in size, they present a challenge to remove physically, but are susceptible to chemical attack, and can be killed by iodine, chlorine, and radiation.  Viruses are responsible for such aliments as hepatitis A, polio, and gastroenteritis.”
 
Based on the above info, I came to the conclusion that the best approach was a two-stage one.  Treat the water with chlorine bleach, and then use an activated carbon filter that would remove the chlorine taste as well as the protozoa and, hopefully, any other chemicals present, too.

How about boiling the water too to make it a three stage approach , Or would that be unnecessary?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I would rate it as unnecessary if the other two steps are taken.  Also very fuel intensive and expensive (fuel$).  Not to mention time intensive.

We have a few people here who suffer from extreme chemical sensitivities, and I could speculate that they might find boiling in place of using chlorine bleach to be necessary, but absent something like that, I don't see it as being needed.

You understand that I don't have a degree in this stuff, I've just read a couple of articles, right?

Overlanders who travel throughout Africa, Asia and South America find good water filters to be perfectly adequate for treating drinking water.

 

[anewbiewannabe]

Boiling can be used in place of chemicals where feasible or necessary for individual reasons like chemical sensitivities. According to the CDC it only requires a one minute boil to pasteurize water. http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

I guess about the smartest thing would be to know what possible water issues may be in the area you will be going and then plan accordingly for what suits individual levels of comfort as to filtration/pasteurization/chemical treatment. YMMV