Do locals not like van dwellers?

[jimindenver]

First, The difference is how those that are in charge see it. They make the rules and questioning them does nothing to change it.

Second is that the things that you describe are not considered acceptable in places like the LTVA. They seem harmless until you get hundreds of people doing it over and over for months at a time. An example is that the wash behind YARC camp stunk pretty bad.

Last thing is the water in a gray tank sits there and festers, ferments and weird things growing. It stinks worse than the black tank. Being down wind of a gray tank being dumped on the ground is just nasty.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . . I am only confused by one thing. I want to know the difference between washing your hair, brushing your teeth, peeing behind a bush, washing your dishes in a pan then throwing out the water, spitting and rinsing out your toothpaste mouth and letting your gray tank drip into the ground.

I agree with bullfrog.

It's about volume, dispersion, and camping density.

My Volume:  
 - Washing hair, about a liter.  
 - Brushing teeth, 1/2 cup water.  
 - I pee about 300 ml at a time.  
 - Dishwashing, 2 cups or less, usually just spray and wipe, and no food residue (that's the beagles job).
 - Shower, about 2 - 3 liters. 

My Dispersion:
 - when available all those (except shower, hair washing) is disposed of in proper facilities.
 - when boondocking all are dispersed around, away from campsites.
 - when in sensitive areas all is stored until proper disposal is available.

Density:
 - with the increased number of people camping what used to be acceptable is becoming unacceptable simply because of volume.

The difference in letting the grey tank empty is dispersal and volume.  The tank is emptying in one spot right in a campsite. With 'out of sight , out of mind' the volume is probably more than you think.

 

[Boutdun]

I agree with “spiff”. I use the same methods. Usually there is not another camper within 1/4 mile.
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[bullfrog]

^^^It's not just long term stay areas anymore. It is 20 miles down a dirt road or any of several places people have populated in the wild. You can only do so much to limit your impact. It is getting to the point there are so many minor impacts it is a major problem. As far as cheap RV living goes it looks to me time to start investing in tracts of land to develop into communities that have the minimal services available like the LTVAs but much better enforcement and management by the residents. Escapees parks are a good example of what could be done to help those that need a community support.

 

[Cammalu]

YARC Camp was pinged on definitely because we had some people camping that didn’t have tanks for their waste. I offered my blueboy container those years but nobody used it except for us. The rangers ran out anyone that didn’t have a black tank.

It’s been very easy for us to empty our tanks into the blueboy and haul it to the waste station but I haven’t seen many haul off their waste if they don’t have tanks. It isn’t easy for many I know.

I don’t watch 24/7 or ever to see where anything is going by those who don’t have tanks. I do know when I go to dump trash in the bins they often smell really bad so I assume much of it is ending up there.

All the years of rtr with no dumpsters and even with that last year we all camped together you could see people outside showering, washing dishes, etc. They would throw the water or let it run on the ground. It’s the same for many at the LTVAs and anywhere else I see campers without holding tanks. I was just trying to understand because I don’t really get the difference in throwing that water and throwing gray water that isn’t held and moldy but just runs out on the ground? I’m not saying either way is right I’m just wondering how can one be justified and not the other? Same water.

When I come to KY to see family I have a slab to park on and a dedicated septic I hook up to. It’s a bit ironic because the house was set up from before I bought it to run the gray out on the ground a couple hundred feet from the house. It’s that area that’s the greenest and where we get the fishing worms.

 

[nature lover]

OK I know some of you won’t like it but I’ll confess I have no tanks. I use water very conservely water like the above poster. Those sponge like things I use for a bath take less than 2 ounces of water. I P on the ground and if anyone questions it I say it’s a scientific experiment because it draws butterflies to study. And here’s the worst thing I poop in a bag in a bucket and put it in the trash. HDR I don’t usually use trash cans at the gas pumps. I often use the dumpster at the park or something like that. Why is it OK to put a baby shit diapers In the trash and not my little baggie? In Lancaster county it all goes to the incinerator to get burnt to make electricity. In other places it goes to a landfill. In the process of dumping the dumpster it’s all done mechanically and no human touches it or even gets close. I believe there’s a lot of things dropped and trash cans everywhere that are more harmful and gross than a turd. I know some of you will be upset at that but that’s my life as a poor nomad in a remodeled van. Oh yes I use biodegradable bags. now I know you question biodegradable but as I said in the past these bags are used by our forestry department and buried in the forest. They’re made of corn by products . And once buried they degrade within less than a year and have no poly carbon in them whatsoever. That’s the scoop on the poop. Hey poop happens.

Do you know what if they don’t Locos don’t like me that’s OK because I’m not sure I like most of them.

 

[crofter]

...I don’t watch 24/7 or ever to see where anything is going by those who don’t have tanks. I do know when I go to dump trash in the bins they often smell really bad so I assume much of it is ending up there.

All the years of rtr with no dumpsters and even with that last year we all camped together you could see people outside showering, washing dishes, etc. They  would throw the water or let it run on the ground. It’s the same for many at the LTVAs and anywhere else I see campers without holding tanks. I was just trying to understand because I don’t really get the difference in throwing that water and throwing gray water that isn’t held and moldy but just runs out on the ground?  I’m not saying either way is right I’m just wondering how can one be justified and not the other?  Same water.

When I come to KY to see family I have a slab to park on and a dedicated septic I hook up to. It’s a bit ironic because the house was set up from before I bought it to run the gray out on the ground a couple hundred feet from the house. It’s that area that’s the greenest and where we get the fishing worms.

According to the pros, greywater is treated with UV to kill pathogens and filtered before reuse including for landscape irrigation. I also do not see the downside for recycling water into the landscape especially for watering natural plants during a decades long drought. Link to site.

https://nsuwater.com/what-we-do/#toggle-id-2

BTW birch trees can be grown in the sonora desert of AZ with the hot temperatures 110 to 120 degrees seasonally with regular watering. The birch tree described above is suffering from drought not heat. It would benefit from some greywater about now.

The same is true for desert plants and trees around Quartzsite suffering from the effects of a 20 year drought, they can also benefit from your greywater. Not sure why BLM would come out against this.

In any campground without a greywater drain or sewage treatment system, the dishwater does get dumped on the plants. As a camp host for contractors of USDA Forest Service, I did not ticket people for greywater disposal or for dumping human waste in the vault toilets. The use of shower tents with open bottoms (water going on the ground) and bathroom tents ( bucket waste dumped in the vault) is accepted practice. Yes if there is no vault you will need to pack out your bucket waste to the nearest sewage dump station. Currently in the US we are not treating human waste solids thru high heat composting (but we should be). Yes that process does generate methane which can be used to run a power plant generating electricity, steam heating systems, etc as is practiced in Europe. Why waste water throwing it away it is a valuable resource.
-crofter

 

[desert_sailing]

I think much of the controversy is often due to lack of clarity.

There is nothing wrong with putting grey on the ground and anyone who has experience living in rural areas is well aware of a leech field.

I learned about leech fields the unpleasant way.

The difference is public vs. private.

So when someone says you can't dispose of either gray or black on the ground they are saying that from the public land viewpoint.
Nobody wants to deal with others "mess".

But leech fields and outhouses are always going to be used  and with the consent of regulators.
Public land and private land... what's acceptable and permissible are very different.

I realize that most of the conversation revolves around dwelling on public land..

But to give an absolute without that qualifier is wrong and certainly will encourage a huge debate about disposal of waste.

$hit, spit or litter on private land . ..whatever .But those become an issue when on public lands and everyone will chime in.

Good thing about boats is you can  drop your waste a mere 3 miles from the shoreline in most cases.

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-and-ports/vessel-sewage-frequently-asked-questions

You may want to stay off the beach on taco Tuesdays.

 

[crofter]

Not sure why I bother posting as the post will be deleted anyway like all my posts about any negative issue a dweller may face.

FWIW vault toilets have a calacity of 750 to 1000 gallons and up to 13 thousand gallons per each vault. 1500 uses will add up to 100 gallons of waste, so easy to calculate how many vault toilets would be needed at Quartzsite for BLM to manage the land in a sanitary manner. Don't blame the campers, they paid their fee. 

And when the campers are packed in across the desert wall to wall that is a lot of fees. Each vault costs about fourty thousand dollars including excavation and installation with a crane, and lasts for many decades. There is no excuse for BLM to neglect this part of their job.

True that composting the human waste is a better idea, as practiced in Europe yields electric and steam generation from burning the byproduct methane gas. Using water to process human waste creates more waste, composting that same waste produces compost and resources like methane. Why waste this abundant resource?
-crofter

 

[desert_sailing]

thanks for a bit of math there crofter.

I think that certainly some folks do abuse the land BUT it is also up to those in charge of managing those lands facilitate proper usage.

Folks do realize that heads of govt agencies get bonuses based on the monies saved..??

maybe whoever is head of BLM and other land should stop pocketing bonuses and start using that money to improve and sustain OUR public lands.

Slumlords in charge. Happy to take your rent but very unlikely to fix the problems short of evicting everyone. Then all the former tenants can blame each other... when all along it was just a crappy landlord.

 

[crofter]

....FWIW vault toilets have a calacity of 750 to 1000 gallons and up to 13 thousand gallons per each vault. 1500 uses will add up to 100 gallons of waste, so easy to calculate how many vault toilets would be needed at Quartzsite for BLM to manage the land in a sanitary manner. Don't blame the campers, they paid their fee. 

And when the campers are packed in across the desert wall to wall that is a lot of fees. Each vault costs about fourty thousand dollars including excavation and installation with a crane, and lasts for many decades....

Quartzsite site boasts 2 million visitors per year but BLM site does not disclose the visitor capacity of the LTVA areas. If 200 thousand of the 2 million visitors bought a winter pass at $180 each, that proceeds of 36 million dollars could pay for the purchase and installation of 900 vault toilets. 

Estimated that the 200,000 purchasers of LTVA permits would need about 133 plus vault toilets for their needs. Not an infinite number and with due diligence by BLM managers the need could be easily met with fees that are collected. Don't blame the campers.
-crofter

 

[crofter]

...start using that money to improve and sustain OUR public lands....

Hear! Hear!

Hope all enjoyed the potty math problem and can see that closure is not an option when the fix is easy and affordable. Yes family camping with vault toilets could be possible at the LTVA.

In my experience as a camp host I did have to close a couple campsites for very brief periods of time, one was for a hornet nest constructed under the fire pit as the extermination chemicals required evacuation for a couple days. Other time was when someone stole half a yurt on my day off. Had to be closed while we removed the dangling parts of the yurt the thief left behind. 

Although as a host I did find human waste in various inappropriate places and cleaned it up, I never closed a site for that reason. Hosts are the cleanup experts who have the ability to request facility improvements at the end of season survey, but usually rewarded with a bucket of paint. More lipstick on it...

And thanks for the heads up on bilge pumping. Nothing like a beach walk with "sand" between my toes.
-crofter

 

[crofter]

For example, According to the BLM site, La Posa South LTVA has 10 vault toilets.

https://www.blm.gov/visit/la-posa-long-term-visitor-area

But how long is the line to use it?
Hmmm.
-crofter

 

[Cammalu]

Crofter. I never see a line at the bathrooms at la Posa. There is a line at the dump station usually.

Someone has inflated the visitor count of Quartzsite by a jillion unless they count every car that drives by on the highway for a year

 

[highdesertranger]

I have never seen a line at the vault toilets La Posa south. the vast majority of people there are self contained. Actually I was impressed with how the LTVA's were run.

Besides what does the LTVA have to do with, "Do locals not like van dwellers". For the most part as far as I can tell the people of Quartzsite welcome everyone.

Highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

YARC Camp was pinged on definitely because we had some people camping that didn’t have tanks for their waste. I offered my blueboy container those years but nobody used it except for us. The rangers ran out anyone that didn’t have a black tank....

In this post cammalu says rangers at Quartzsite ran off people who did not have black tanks. Apparently the ten vault toilets were not enough capacity for those people to camp there. Sounds like a negative experience for those campers, if they were not allowed to camp. I do not agree with the idea of blaming the campers for lack of facilities at a well known and established public camping area managed by a well funded public agency.

As a FS camp host I never ran anyone off because there were not enough toilets at the campground. Even when the toilets are irretrievably broken porta potties are brought in and maintained multiple times per day. FS builds one vault toilet for every 7 campsites and collects customer feedback about their experience including the toilets. The campers are never blamed for a problem with the vault toilets that is the responsibility of the campground operator.

My point: there is a problem with the operator at the LTVA in that adequate sanitary facilities are not provided for the campers.
-crofter

 

[crofter]

...
Someone has inflated the visitor count of Quartzsite by a jillion unless they count every car that drives by on the highway for a year

If you have any better numbers let us know. What I posted was available at this site and others.

https://quartzsitetourism.com/

When I camped at La Posa south the campers were wall to wall. If I was not attending RTR and signed up for a caravan I would not have camped there at all. Way too crowded and no sign of a water pump or a bathroom or any other amenity. More like a parking lot than boondocking.

I have a better experience at Quartzsite during the off season when no one is there.

During my contact with staff, I thought they were intrusive and rude and not informative about services offered. However I have never been charged a fee at Quartzsite. So free for me I guess I should just appreciate my free ride more.
-crofter

 

[crofter]

Just do as Bob does in the videos: more bubbles. We need more bubbles.  -c

 

[Cammalu]

In this post cammalu says rangers at Quartzsite ran off people who did not have black tanks. Apparently the ten vault toilets were not enough capacity for those people to camp there.

My point: there is a problem with the operator at the LTVA in that adequate sanitary facilities are not provided for the campers.
-crofter

Crofter. I’m out there for months every year and get all over the place. There are a couple of weeks (for the tent show) that gets an influx and they all seem to try to park as close as they can to the big tent so they can walk over. It may look like a lot more people than there are because they are so concentrated over a small area. Not really so the rest of the desert. I know about the published super exaggerated numbers but it’s just not a fact and there are less every year. So many business are closed. So many campgrounds are closed. Vendors are getting fewer and fewer because they can’t make enough money to justify coming to Q.

Yes the ranger kicked people outta YARC Camp but not out of the LTVA. If you aren’t self contained you just have to park within 500 feet of one of the bathrooms. There just aren’t lines at the bathrooms so they really can’t justify anymore. However, another dump station at one of the other LTVAs in Q would be great. There can be lines to dump but not always.

 

[crofter]

Just a question: On page 9 of this thread Jim says the wash behind YARC camp was stinky. Sounds like you are saying that even if there was a vault toilet or dump station at YARC camp that people would still be doing their stinky business in the wash and not at the facility?

I actually met some people who only toilet trained their kids to use a cat hole & had no idea what to do with a toilet. If that is true at YARC camp you are correct, no point in installing an adequate number of vault toilets.
-crofter