Wages and Unions - moved from: Things to do to keep feeling "normal" while living out of your van?

[Carla618]

Bob Vila is the last person you want to use for pay reference, since This OLd House was based in/near Boston (New England for sure). Historically the priciest area in the U.S. (pre-internet days). Maybe he left New England.

I think my son is making about $55 an hour in eastern Washington State as a builder (roofing, framing, drywall, concrete). You gotta be in a large metro area and be union. He is rural and not in a union.

 

[Carla618]

The thing you are missing, is that after the collapse of 1929, the smart capitalists knew that the fastest way to grow the economy and military was to ensure that worker wages kept pace with productivity. If you do that, then workers will be fine. So they made it happen with public benefits, labor unions, minimum wage, etc. It worked great.

Huh? Capitalists caused this to happen? Men died to gain the benefits we have today because the capitalist owners refused to provide benefits.

Also, one of the causes of the Great Depression was low wages. The workers didn't make enough money to purchase the goods they were producing. Don't know how that ties into what you said about productivity, but it was on a test I took in college

An excerpt from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

In the wake of the Great Depression, important pro-labor legislation was passed, but none was more fundamental than the
National Labor Relations Act of 1935 (Wagner Act). The Wagner act guaranteed the twin rights of workers to join labor
unions and to bargain collectively. This act turned the tide for union labor that had too often encountered court defeats in
cases of management and union entanglements. The immediate impact of the Wagner Act can be seen in the increase in
union membership. Unions swelled more than two-fold between 1935 and 1940, rising from 3.8 million to 9 million--a stark
change of events from the declines experienced just a few years earlier. This quinquennium growth would be matched by no
other period in the history of American labor.

The rapid growth in strength of unions, numerically and financially, continued through the World War II years. After the war,
unions--with their newfound strength--pressed hard for higher wages, and when not met, orchestrated widespread strikes that
would, in the end, raise the public’s ire. ~ https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/the-evolution-of-compensation-in-a-changing-economy.pdf

 

[Gr8ful]

AEP is union & my son is the steward, I was a Teamster for less than 2 months when I was a mechanic after high school, only time I was in a union.. For AEP use this & type in the state but we're not in a "big metro area" He lives a town with well under 2000 people & any other towns are over 10 miles away & small.
https://www.zippia.com/american-electric-power-careers-559/salary/lineman/#by-location

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Eternal conflict:

Employers want the most labor for the least money.​

Employees want the most money for the least labor.​

Consumers want the most return for their money.​

Your value in the labor market is determined by how much it costs to replace you.

Depending on industry, you must produce 1.7X to 2.5X+ times your paycheck for your employer to remain in business.

Employers, employees, or consumers temporarily gain ascendancy but eventually get greedy, their power erodes and the advantage goes another way.

 

[Carla618]

AEP is union & my son is the steward, I was a Teamster for less than 2 months when I was a mechanic after high school, only time I was in a union.. For AEP use this & type in the state but we're not in a "big metro area" He lives a town with well under 2000 people & any other towns are over 10 miles away & small.
https://www.zippia.com/american-electric-power-careers-559/salary/lineman/#by-location

I should have said and/or be in a union.

 

[Gr8ful]

My wife worked for the county placing people with severe learning disabilities into jobs & was forced into the Teamsters union. What a joke as they never did one thing for the employees except the so called steward got a new car before every contract.

 

[Carla618]

My wife worked for the county placing people with severe learning disabilities into jobs & was forced into the Teamsters union. What a joke as they never did one thing for the employees except the so called steward got a new car before every contract.

They kept her wages higher than they would have been without a union. No benefits?

 

[rruff]

Huh? Capitalists caused this to happen? Men died to gain the benefits we have today because the capitalist owners refused to provide benefits.

Also, one of the causes of the Great Depression was low wages. The workers didn't make enough money to purchase the goods they were producing.

Yes, they caused this to happen, to achieve world domination. Yes to the cause of the great depression as well... an imbalance between profit and wages isn't sustainable. However, since the 70s they've figured out how to kick that can down the road long enough to make it a non-issue.

 

[Carla618]

Yes, they caused this to happen, to achieve world domination. Yes to the cause of the great depression as well... an imbalance between profit and wages isn't sustainable. However, since the 70s they've figured out how to kick that can down the road long enough to make it a non-issue.

What you said:

"... after the collapse of 1929, the smart capitalists knew that the fastest way to grow the economy and military was to ensure that worker wages kept pace with productivity. If you do that, then workers will be fine. So they made it happen with public benefits, labor unions, minimum wage, etc."

I disagree that it was the owners of businesses who "... made it happen with public benefits, labor unions, minimum wage, etc."
They fought higher wages, unions and benefits tooth and nail. 214 strikes a year, on average, from 1930-1980. They didn't strike for fun. I'm confused. Why do you think the owners gave to the workers and unions freely?

 

[rruff]

They didn't strike for fun. I'm confused. Why do you think the owners gave to the workers and unions freely?

I said the smart capitalists. The ones with a long and broader view of world domination rather than short term profits. Of course there were fights with individual unions and companies that tried to take too much. That's how the system in the US worked; very antagonistic. But wages and benefits on average rose quickly, and kept pace with and even exceeded productivity from the early 30s to mid 70s.

Communism was a substantial threat in this period, plus as you said excessive profit caused the GD, so some adjustments were necessary. They were concerned with maximizing the tax base and military power... plus a happy and patriotic population that would be willing to fight wars. A rich middle class was an important part of this. They reversed course in the 70s when it became clear that the USSR would collapse. Fiat currency, "free" trade, easy credit and creative finance, "deficits don't matter", lower tax rates, and a rapidly increasing workforce (women), were all changes that contributed in a shift away from wages and back to profits.

I think our system of unionization was terribly inefficient, but in spite of this the economy was extremely strong in this period... our infrastructure, technology, manufacturing, living standards, etc... were the best in the world... and we didn't use "cheap foreign labor" to make it happen.

 

[Gr8ful]

They kept her wages higher than they would have been without a union. No benefits?

Her wages were no higher than non-union places doing the same job. They would not address any issues. They did nothing but collect dues.

 

[RonDean]

Eternal conflict:

Employers want the most labor for the least money.​

Employees want the most money for the least labor.​

Consumers want the most return for their money.​

Your value in the labor market is determined by how much it costs to replace you.

Depending on industry, you must produce 1.7X to 2.5X+ times your paycheck for your employer to remain in business.

Employers, employees, or consumers temporarily gain ascendancy but eventually get greedy, their power erodes and the advantage goes another way.

I would push back on the statement "Employees want the most money for the least labor."
Sure, some do. But I never did. And I think most other people would not, IF...
they had a job they enjoy doing. The old saying that do what you love and you will never "work" a day in your life is true.

It would take a lot to redesign our economic and education systems, but I can see no logical reason everyone can't find what they enjoy doing and get the training or education to do it. THAT is what our society should be focused on and working to make happen. Even the greed is good capitalists would benefit if they could just get out of their own way and accept a better way to get things done.

 

[rruff]

Eternal conflict:

Employers want the most labor for the least money.​

Employees want the most money for the least labor.​

Consumers want the most return for their money.​

Your value in the labor market is determined by how much it costs to replace you.

Depending on industry, you must produce 1.7X to 2.5X+ times your paycheck for your employer to remain in business.

Employers, employees, or consumers temporarily gain ascendancy but eventually get greedy, their power erodes and the advantage goes another way.

Spot on... except for the last sentence. Greed doesn't necessarily erode power... especially corporate greed. And employees and consumers are basically the same people... and we have never had the upper hand. I believe we only got "rich" after the GD because the powerful needed/wanted that to happen.

It's also good to remember that productivity is what determines the size of "the pie". That's doing more with fewer aggregate man-hrs of work. There is no increase in real profits or wages possible unless productivity improves.

 

[Carla618]

... and we didn't use "cheap foreign labor" to make it happen.

I don't know what years you are referring to, because shortly after the 70's we started moving jobs overseas and to Mexico.

This is a good refresher on the '80's:
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-happened-to-american-jobs-in-the-80s-2017-7?

 

[Carla618]

Her wages were no higher than non-union places doing the same job. They would not address any issues. They did nothing but collect dues.

• Unions reduce wage inequality because they raise wages more for low- and middle-wage workers than for higher-wage workers, more for blue-collar than for white-collar workers, and more for workers who do not have a college degree.
• Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries.
• The impact of unions on total nonunion wages is almost as large as the impact on total union wages.
  
  More:
  
  https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/
  Did she attend union meetings and did her union rep refuse to grieve for her?
  
  Unions aren't perfect. Some need improvement. But without them workers are screwed.
  
  My dad was in the UAW and had to watch his benefits disappear during the '80's. Then watch his company (International Harvester) fail due to mismanagement under McCardell. According to him, benefits that they fought hard to attain over the course of decades were disappearing.
  
  My brother was a union carpenter who believed that the government needed to regulate unions. He was very pro-union but was aware of the need for improvement.

 

[rruff]

I don't know what years you are referring to, because shortly after the 70's we started moving jobs overseas and to Mexico.

The good period, 30s through 70s.

 

[rruff]

The impact of unions on total nonunion wages is almost as large as the impact on total union wages.

My brother was a union carpenter who believed that the government needed to regulate unions. He was very pro-union but was aware of the need for improvement.

Yep, should be obvious that unions will boost non-union wages. Companies will pay extra to keep employees from unionizing!

I also agree that unions need to be government regulated. This is how it's done in most developed countries.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I would push back on the statement "Employees want the most money for the least labor."
Sure, some do. But I never did. And I think most other people would not, IF...
they had a job they enjoy doing. The old saying that do what you love and you will never "work" a day in your life is true ......

Unfortunately, most of the important jobs in a society are repetitive drudgery: cleaning up sick and elderly who soil themselves, working at a very hot forge all day (most of Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs would qualify here). Without these society doesn't function very well.

Any competent adult in a childs life should know what his aptitudes and interests are by 9th or 10th grade. But 15 - 25 year olds are not inclined to take advice from said competent adults. They will instead listen to their peers and idols.

Spot on... except for the last sentence. Greed doesn't necessarily erode power... especially corporate greed. And employees and consumers are basically the same people... and we have never had the upper hand. I believe we only got "rich" after the GD because the powerful needed/wanted that to happen .....

I will disagree. But the cycles are very long. I was born (1949) when union power was at its peak. It has been eroding ever since. I would expect that it will rebound in the next decades; so a cycle of ~ 100+ years?

Consumers have the most power when there is a free market. Monopolies and collusion rob consumer power.

Governments want people poor and dependent, they are easier to manage.

.....
Unions aren't perfect. Some need improvement. But without them workers are screwed .....

Large corporations and unions are an unfortunate necessity. Government is supposed to be the referee. Sadly, the referee can be easily bought.

 

[RonDean]

Unfortunately, most of the important jobs in a society are repetitive drudgery: cleaning up sick and elderly who soil themselves, working at a very hot forge all day (most of Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs would qualify here). Without these society doesn't function very well.

Any competent adult in a childs life should know what his aptitudes and interests are by 9th or 10th grade. But 15 - 25 year olds are not inclined to take advice from said competent adults. They will instead listen to their peers and idols.


I will disagree. But the cycles are very long. I was born (1949) when union power was at its peak. It has been eroding ever since. I would expect that it will rebound in the next decades; so a cycle of ~ 100+ years?

Consumers have the most power when there is a free market. Monopolies and collusion rob consumer power.

Governments want people poor and dependent, they are easier to manage.


Large corporations and unions are an unfortunate necessity. Government is supposed to be the referee. Sadly, the referee can be easily bought.

re: Governments want people poor and dependent, they are easier to manage.
NO. It's Capitalist Employers that want this. While it's true that our government pays more attention to lobbyists than voters according to the actual numbers. (see: https://news.gallup.com/poll/193484/americans-major-donors-sway-congress-constituents.aspx )

As for the dirty job thing. My wife was an ER nurse and then a Hospice nurse and got to deal with a lot of human messes. But she loved her job because she felt she was helping people that really needed her. I've known many others doing dirty jobs that enjoyed them too. Not all rewards are $$$. And there is probably some value to starting jobs for our youth to learn about the work world before moving on to their dream jobs.

Beyond that improve the jobs. Automate, robotize, AI, etc or make the jobs more desirable in other ways. I know there were some folks that justified slavery by saying we needed those jobs done to keep the economy going. Personally, I don't buy it.

 

[rruff]

Regarding "dirty jobs"... a free market would take care of that quite well... but employers balk at the wages required, and instead favor importing illegals.

In other words, for every "dirty job" there is a wage at which you can find enough people happy to do it. Pay it.