Ultra-Capacity Lithium Batteries

[kllcbosmetris]

I would only give value to

the battery based on AH capacity,  chemistry type - and **only** if replaceable, suitable batts readily available if the company goes away or discontinues.

the box and ports

Zero value for the charging / regulation or the inverter

unless they somehow exactly matched a specific use case and I would buy the same specs anyway - very unlikely,  and of course whatever they include longevity and build quality is unkown,  features substandard as with anything included in a kit.

Feel the same way about solar,  free controller included with panels is irrelevant,  panels have to carry all the value and I get ticked off they don't just sell them on their own take $10 off the price.

I understand building your own set up that would generate the same results would be cheaper. 
I understand there is no way to know what type or the quality of components or inverter they used in that box.
I understand that the battery is not user replaceable under the current set up.
I understand there is a limit 1500w or 1100w usage, which is not ideal for someone who wants to run a 1800w appliance.

Here is what I am asking:

- How much does it cost to build that exact system? Not an equivalent system (with non-lithium batteries) but that exact system. [Considering the pure sine wave inverter + lithium ion battery + charge controller  + wires/fuses/usb/ports/box.]
- Based on that, how much would you be willing to pay for that box?

Not a marketing survey. The reason I am asking is that I am in a position to buy this for $1373 (cheapest possible price, based on all of my search in the past 4 months) and I am trying to see if this would be a good solution for a newbie/starter. [Until I know enough to build a bigger system and sell this on eBay.]

For me the biggest draw is that you can take this with you and charge it at work or a coffee shop, without depending on solar or alternator (driving around). Something you can't do with a stationary (not movable) and non-lithium (heavy and huge) system.

 

[kllcbosmetris]

I understand building your own set up that would generate the same results would be cheaper. 
I understand there is no way to know what type or the quality of components or inverter they used in that box.
I understand that the battery is not user replaceable under the current set up.
I understand there is a limit 1500w or 1100w usage, which is not ideal for someone who wants to run a 1800w appliance.

Here is what I am asking:

- How much does it cost to build that exact system? Not an equivalent system (with non-lithium batteries) but that exact system. [Considering the pure sine wave inverter + lithium ion battery + charge controller  + wires/fuses/usb/ports/box.]
- Based on that, how much would you be willing to pay for that box?

Not a marketing survey. The reason I am asking is that I am in a position to buy this for $1373 (cheapest possible price, based on all of my search in the past 4 months) and I am trying to see if this would be a good solution for a newbie/starter. [Until I know enough to build a bigger system and sell this on eBay.]

For me the biggest draw is that you can take this with you and charge it at work or a coffee shop, without depending on solar or alternator (driving around). Something you can't do with a stationary (not movable) and non-lithium (heavy and huge) system.

To help you with your analysis here are the technical specs:

Kodiak Specifications:

Output Ports:
• 6- 110VAC Plugs [1000 watt continuous per outlet, 3000 Watt starting surge maximum,10 amp maximum output per AC plug, 1500 Watt total limit for combined AC & DC output.]
• 1- 30 Amp RV plug,125 Volt, NEMA TT-30R
• 2 - 12V DC Universal Car Sockets, 15 Amps maximum per socket
• 4- USB Outlets 5V DC, 1 - 2.1 Amp port and 1- 1 Amp port, regulated, 15 Watts Maximum per adapter
• 2 - Light Port, 12VDC 5.5 x 2.5mm connector standard 50 Watts maximum output per port, up to 10 Basecamp LED lights chained together.

Battery:
• Lithium Ion (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide, NMC) 1000 watt continuous for 1 hour, 3000 watt peak (AC and DC combined)
• 12.6V DC, 90AH
• Up to 2000 charge cycles
• Up to 10 years shelf life, charge at least every 3 months. Integrated charge balancer and controller
• Over charge and balancing protection

General:
• Weight: 20 lbs (9 Kg)
• Dimensions: 9” tall, 14” wide, 9” deep

 

[John61CT]

I did not know all those things in advance, but now that I do, I would say maybe $2-300 is my answer to your original question, **if** I had a need for such a low capacity system only suitable for extending gadget usage time, which I don't.

As for the latest evolution of your question, the answer has to be I have no idea, because I have no desire to do all the necessary research for something I have no interest in.

In fact I would need to own the unit to come up with an answer, since the actual performance specs aren't available.

And note that I never said DIY would in fact be doable more cheapely, why bother duplicating woefully underpowered functionality?

For me the objective is a system that meets **my** own needs, which won't be the same as yours, nor those of most others, there are so many variables the combinations are myriad.

If you think that unit well matches *your* current needs, and can afford that price, trust the seller etc, then go for it.

If you're *not* sure, start a new thread outlining your current understanding of *your* needs and I'm sure we can help you put something together that at least comes closer.

Doesn't mean cheaper though, since the functionality of the components will likely be much greater.

Just as an example how many Amps is that unit's grid power charger? I bet not great enough to refill while having a few cups of coffee.

Because a powerful charger suitable for LFP costs hundreds of dollars on its own!

 

[kllcbosmetris]

I did not know all those things in advance,  but now that I do,  I would say maybe $2-300 is my answer to your original question,  **if** I had a need  for such a low capacity system only suitable for extending gadget usage time,  which I don't.

As for the latest evolution of your question,  the answer has to be I have no idea,  because I have no desire to do all the necessary research for something I have no interest in.

In fact I would need to own the unit to come up with an answer,  since the actual performance specs aren't available.

And note that I never said DIY would in fact be doable more cheapely, why bother duplicating woefully underpowered functionality?

For me the objective is a system that meets **my** own needs,  which won't be the same as yours,  nor those of most others,  there are so many variables the combinations are myriad.

If you think that unit well matches *your* current needs,  and can afford that price,  trust the seller etc,  then go for it.

If you're *not*  sure,  start a new thread outlining your current understanding of *your* needs and I'm sure we can help you put something together that at least comes closer.

Doesn't mean cheaper though,  since the functionality of the components will likely be much greater.

Just as an example how many Amps is that unit's grid power charger? I bet not great enough to refill while having a few cups of coffee.

Because a powerful charger suitable for LFP costs hundreds of dollars on its own!

Thanks for the insight. I am on the fence after seeing this greatly discounted price (discount + blackfriday/cybersunday cheapest price of the year), which is quite the drop from their regular $1800-$1900 range. 

Great points on:

- Only extend gadget use. Maybe CPAP convenience at night or a 900w microwave use for a bit but your point stands with the system's 1100w limit.
- Low capacity system. Though the system is apparently expandable with as many 12V marine deep cycle battery as you like. 

As for your $200-$300 estimate, are you confident on that number? I don't know how you can build this for $300 honestly. I do not know enough market research or knowledge to know what components would cost but as far as I know a similar 100Ah 12V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery is around $900 [Kodiak has 90Ah lithium battery]. I do not know the grid power charger amps but it can be fully charged in 10 hours (with a regular A/C charger), in 5 hours (with a quick wall charger), in 5 hours (with car's DC charge port at 240w), in 2 hours (with up to 600w solar high current charging).

This would not meet my needs in the long run but it could be a temporary solution until I can build a system that does meet my needs. if anyone else wants to chime in 'is this worth it at $1300-$1400 price point' feel free.

 

[jimindenver]

Didn't sternwake post his version of this?

 

[Cammalu]

Sternwake is over on the other forum


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[John61CT]

As for your $200-$300 estimate, are you confident on that number? I don't know how you can build this for $300 honestly.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that was my answer to "how much would I personally pay for it".

My answer to your later question was I don't know.

 

[John61CT]

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=28022

Thread on larger units

 

[tx2sturgis]

Itripper...

  I paid $1850 for 12v 400ah battery system.  750 for 100ah seem high to me.  750x4 would be $3,000.     I would expect the price point to be closer to $500 for 100ah

Was that $1850 shipped to your door? Or was that $1850 picked up?

The battery that Itripper linked is $750 shipped. (and looks interesting!)

Shipping is NEVER free on batteries, or anything else: somebody is paying for it, and adding it to the cost of the item.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Oh and that blue lithium battery includes a BMS...I don't remember if the others referenced above do or don't.

 

[John61CT]

Any 12V so-called drop-in LFP will include an internal BMS.

That may seem like a positive feature, but in fact can really screw things up, and make that battery type much less valuable than assembling your own pack from 3.2V prismatic cells.

 

[John61CT]

Note also calling something a "lithium battery" gives very little information.

You need to refer to it by the specific chemistry.

NMC and LiPo are much cheaper, don't last long, and can be dangerous due to thermal runaway risk (boom bad! giving the umbrella term a bad rep)

Only LiFePO4 aka LFP is safe enough for House bank usage.

Here is a great recent post from Maine Sail, and another example further down, on the type of detailed technical information that should be easily obtainable from a reputable battery vendor.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2527211

The thread as a whole is worth reading, one poster came very close to getting scammed.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Note also calling something a "lithium battery" gives very little information.

You need to refer to it by the specific chemistry.

Kinda like using the word 'van'....it tells us very little.

But if someone is talking about a blue Chevy G-20 van with the 350 engine and 3 speed auto, and then a few posts later I reference the same blue Chevy van, then everyone already knows the van we are talking about. I dont need to define the engine, and transmission, etc, repeatedly, especially if it's already been done. 

It's called 'context'.

So, no, I don't need to spell out the chemistry if I'm referring to the only blue battery in the above post (#42) and pictures.

 

[John61CT]

I have no idea about which one you mean, and I didn't mean to be critical.

Just that most of the "powerpacks" (main topic of this thread) aren't even LFP, so I'm reminding everyone in general that it will help keep the discussion useful if we avoid the more general term.

LFP is even fewer letters.

I also think it would be worth starting a specific "drop in 12V LFP" thread, since it seems they are of interest to many here, and are really a very different type of product than the powerpacks that include SC, chargers, inverters, converters etc.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Well, yeah, I agree.

Anyway, I like how Itripper configured his setup. 

My plan is to set up my future rig similarly, with a dual, but isolated, power system with independent panels, batteries, controllers, and loads. My present van and trailer combo has three separate systems, two systems in the van and one system in the trailer. 

I had quoted a previous post, and was referencing that system, with the blue, drop-in, LFP battery. 

I have not used any of the lithium chemistries, except in my laptops, smartphones, (duh) and in my drones. So my experience with those is limited.

But I'm always willing to try something new!

 

[John61CT]

Yes, it's an unfortunate fact trying to get started with LFP is both expensive **and** requires a lot of research to make sure that risky investment isn't wasted.

 

[VanKitten]

I would say that getting started with LIFePo4 is EITHER very expensive OR a very tough learning curve is required.

So far, my "expensive" mistakes have been in picking the wrong vendor.   So, far...I have recouped the money lost on devices that do not work.     So far.

Oh and the cost was shipped to me door.    But...it only came to me 150 miles from vendor.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Oh and the cost was shipped to me door.    But...it only came to me 150 miles from vendor.

As others gain experience and report the problems and sucess, we all benefit.

And yeah that 'landed' price does seem to be pretty good....I'm not buying just yet, but might be doing exactly that in a couple of months. 

Thanks!

 

[John61CT]

Old-school lead based jumpstarter powerpacks

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?pid=354391#pid354391

 

[John61CT]

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?pid=363211#pid363211

Some real life experience trying to use a Kodiak to power a tiny fridge.