To Meat or Not Meat . .

[Almost There]

I've deleted an offensive post and consequently had to take out a couple of other posters' comments because they referred only to the offensive one.

Keep it civil folks...remember, if it's not helpful and kind it doesn't belong here. Nor does anything that demeans any person or group of people.

 

[Bast]

If you consider the entire biosphere everything living is both predator and prey. Humans, like everything else, are constantly under attack by predators who just can't wait to eat us. We can protect ourselves from some of them and some of them we can't. How many viruses and bacteria has your immune system killed today to defend itself. Killing whether a carrot or a cow  or a virus is a fact of life.

 

[slynne]

veganmann, I still don't find eating meat to be immoral. Yes, the way we currently raise meat is environmentally irresponsible but I generally find that individual consumer choices are about the least effective way to deal with such problems. I dont find killing animals to be immoral although I mostly kill mice. I have a dog who kills rabbits and groundhogs and I dont think she or my choice to let her run free in my yard is immoral either. I hear you that you do find killing animals to be immoral and I respect that and thus am not in any way suggesting that there is anything wrong with your choices.

However, if your concerns are environmental, diets which include meat and dairy can be even more environmentally friendly than a pure vegan diet although admittedly, such an environmentally optimal diet would include less meat. For example though, there are places where grazing land exists that can't be farmed. In those places, one can graze cattle or goats or sheep etc. The females can be bred and milked with most males eaten young. Pigs can eat anything and were in the past used for turning household food waste into more food. Chickens can produce protein rich eggs for little grain and then eaten after they stop laying with roosters eaten young. All of this can provide valuable fertilizer for growing crops. The important thing to consider is the resources per calorie. A vegan diet is not necessarily better than an omnivore diet in that regard.

None of that is related to the morality of killing other living things. I still dont find your moral outlook to be either convincing or superior to mine, fwiw, although I acknowledge that it is working for you. If you feel good not eating meat or other animal products, good for you! Just dont expect me to take kindly to any attempts to shame me for what I eat as it is a subject that imho is solidly in the territory of not any of your business.

 

[highdesertranger]

here's a thought. I worked in the agriculture business my whole life off and on. I have worked on farms and ranches. while it's true some operations feed their livestock a lot don't. we raised free range beef and only had to feed them in extreme circumstances like prolong drought. we did not make money when we had to feed. feed is expensive.

another point farmers kill animals all the time so as to protect their crops. I knew of no farmer that let his fields be overrun with rabbits, ground squirrels, Skunks, opossums, raccoons, any bird that wants to eat their crop, deer and anything that will eat their crops. in other words farm land has been taken out of the ecosystem animals are killed or displaced. on our cattle ranch none of this took place our ranch was rich in wild life. we had deer, bobcat, mountain lion, rabbits, raccoons, foxes opossums, ground squirrels, tree squirrels, coyotes, badgers, dozens of different kinds of lizards, snakes and birds and more that I have probably forgotten about. something I never saw on any farm I worked at. what I am getting at is for us to live animals must die, one way or another. highdesertranger

 

[sushidog]

I personally kill and cook over a million animals a year. People have to eat.

Chip

 

[tx2sturgis]

I have 6 kinds of cheese in my house right now (chevre, chedder, parmesan, cream cheese, swiss, and camembert )

What? No Pepper-jack cheese?

Ok that's it. We are NOT on speaking terms now.

 

[tx2sturgis]

One of the basic issues with vegetarianism and veganism is that the people living that way generally have to eat more (in weight and volume) of food to get enough sustenance to keep them healthy and satisfied.

Eating more, translates to more of it being transported, (veggies take up more cubic space on a truck than meats) which takes more trucks, and more truck drivers, and those trucks consume fuel, and more drivers to drive more trucks means that more meat laden meals were consumed by those drivers, and the mechanics that maintain those trucks ate more meals, and on and on.

I have worked in transportation for over 40 years. And, there is no 'free ride'.

The celery stalks and the cabbage, the carrots and the beansprouts, and the veggie-burgers and the grapes, did not magically jump from the farm in Idaho or the fields in California to your plate.

Not to mention all of the billions of insects (bees included) killed during the spaying of insecticides, killed during food harvest and production, killed during the cooling phase, and killed during transport.

Wait...insects are animals, you know that, right? Or do vegans conveniently decide where to draw the line at what is important animal life, and what is not important animal life.

Do you also allow your home (whatever type of home you have) to be overrun by mice and insects, your food supply contaminated?

Or do you kill those animals?

Taking the moral high ground about animals being killed for human consumption only stands up if you grow all of your crops on your own, and only consume what you grow, and allow all the critters, rodents, birds, worms, and insects their fair share.

Even then the original seeds you acquired, and the tools you use to work the soil, were themselves transported on our nations highways, and again, dead insects and birds and roadkill is part of that equation. Unless, of course, you are surviving solely on native grasses, bushes, vines, trees, and/or weeds around your property.

So, there really is no 'guilt-free ride'. If you are a living, breathing, human being, maintaining your life has caused death to other creatures, and will always do so.

Such is life at the top of the food chain.

 

[frater secessus]

Two cannibals in the Amazon were eating a clown. One turned to the other, concerned, and said "does this taste funny to you?"

#longpig

 

[Silver]

Gideon I'm a meat eater and hunter.  I've also had plenty of livestock.  The truth is that those cows are inhumanely put on cattle trucks that are a nightmare. I don't suppose you ever were shocked with a hotshot but I have been and it's no picnic.  It hurts like hell and that's what's used regularly to get livestock to move.

Cattle end up riding long periods without water in horrendous conditions some with broken bones and other cattle walking on top of them.  The feed lots are a filthy place and the slaughterhouses a nightmare. Those animals are terrorized on the way to slaughter and yes, they are hurt.

On the other hand a nice fat deer walks across my property and has had a pretty good life. He's free and fat and even fed by special crops just for him. He isn't terrorized once his whole life and then you hear the crack of the rifle and he's down and dead and never knows what hit him.  He's never tortured and the kill is clean.  Not so for any livestock that I know of.

I'm sitting here munching on chicharones by the way so I do eat livestock too but I'm not closing my eyes to the fact of what happened to put them here.

There are more humane methods of livestock that go to slaughter
[img=640x431]http://www.grandinlivestockhandlingsystems.com/_galleries/packing_files/vlb_images2/1.jpg[/img]

Cattle Handling Facility Design for Meat Plants
"Aug 2, 2008

Temple Grandin explains the behavior principles for the design of race,
chute, lairage, and stockyard systems in beef slaughter plants"

 

[Silver]

here's a thought.  I worked in the agriculture business my whole life off and on.  I have worked on farms and ranches.  while it's true some operations feed their livestock a lot don't.  we raised free range beef and only had to feed them in extreme circumstances like prolong drought.  we did not make money when we had to feed.  feed is expensive.

another point farmers kill animals all the time so as to protect their crops.  I knew of no farmer that let his fields be overrun with rabbits,  ground squirrels,  Skunks,  opossums,  raccoons,  any bird that wants to eat their crop,  deer and anything that will eat their crops.  in other words farm land has been taken out of the ecosystem  animals are killed or displaced.  on our cattle ranch none of this took place our ranch was rich in wild life.  we had deer,  bobcat,  mountain lion,  rabbits,  raccoons,  foxes  opossums,  ground squirrels,  tree squirrels,  coyotes,  badgers,  dozens of different kinds of lizards,  snakes and birds and more that I have probably forgotten about.  something I never saw on any farm I worked at.  what I am getting at is for us to live animals must die,  one way or another.  highdesertranger

[img=645x484]http://www.raccoonatticguide.com/pix/raccoontrapping1.jpg[/img]
"Who can take nuisance wildlife?
Any person owning property may take nuisance wildlife
that...

• causes (or is about to cause) property damage,
• presents a threat to public safety, or
• causes an annoyance within, under or upon a building

on their property or they may authorize another person to take nuisance wildlife on their behalf.
Persons responsible for government owned property are considered "property owners". 
Nuisance wildlife trappers and property owners who have problems with animals
are responsible for complying with the many laws that protect animals. Before removing an animal,
please seek assistance in understanding these laws and your options for resolving the problem.
Permits may be required under certain circumstances."

assistnuisance-wildlife/faqs/
Florida Fish and Wildlife

Conservation Commission

 

[John61CT]

"take" must not necessarily mean "kill"

 

[Cammalu]

back porch at night. I only kill what I'm going to eat and that's rare anymore. I like to watch the wildlife.

 

[Cammalu]

Silver I do know about those improved handling facilities but they still have the awful ride to get there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Silver]

Fasting **** Diet Morning Walk California

Short video about the Fasting **** Diet.
Skipping meals etc
http://www.myketokitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/****-Food-Pyramid-Ketogenic-Diet.jpg