To Meat or Not Meat . .

[slynne]

I eat meat but less than I used to. I also eat a lot of dairy in all forms. I often eat vegetarian meals but my reason is that it is easier to just have a meatless sauce that to bother to brown meat for it. I need cheese on it though!

 

[Silver]

"Fat Content and Cardiovascular Disease
Dairy products—including cheese, ice cream, milk, butter, and yogurt
—contribute significant amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat to the diet.

15 Diets high in fat and especially in saturated fat can increase the risk of heart disease
 and can cause other serious health problems.

A low-fat, plant-based diet that eliminates dairy products, in combination with exercise,
smoking cessation, and stress management, can not only prevent heart disease, but may also reverse it."

I drink milk in my smoothies, but I dont drink milk every week.
I love cheese however !

 

[Gary68]

Protein poisoning

"Protein poisoning (also referred to colloquially as rabbit starvation, mal de caribou, or fat starvation) is a rare form of acute malnutrition thought to be caused by a complete absence of fat in the diet.
Excess protein is sometimes cited as the cause of this issue; when meat and fat are consumed in the correct ratio, such as that found in pemmican (which is 50% fat by volume), the diet is considered nutritionally complete and can support humans for months or more. Other stressors, such as severe cold or a dry environment, may intensify symptoms or decrease time to onset. Symptoms include diarrhea, headache, fatigue, low blood pressure, slow heart rate, and a vague discomfort and hunger (very similar to a food craving) that can be satisfied only by the consumption of fat.
Protein poisoning was first noted as a consequence of eating rabbit meat exclusively, hence the term, "rabbit starvation". Rabbit meat is very lean; commercial rabbit meat has 50–100 g dissectable fat per 2 kg (live weight). Based on a carcass yield of 60%, rabbit meat is around 8.3% fat.[1] while beef and pork are 32% fat and lamb 28%"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

"Fat Content and Cardiovascular Disease
Dairy products—including cheese, ice cream, milk, butter, and yogurt
—contribute significant amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat to the diet.

This area of nutrition is undergoing a complete revision:
[font='Lucida Sans Unicode', Arial, 'Lucida Grande', Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif] "Reviewed studies were heterogeneous and lacked the methodologic rigor to draw any conclusions regarding the effects of dietary cholesterol on CVD risk."  http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/102/2/276.full

[/font][font=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]"The lines of evidence coming from current epidemiological studies and from clinical interventions utilizing different types of cholesterol challenges support the notion that the recommendations limiting dietary cholesterol should be reconsidered."[/font]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012

 . . .

A low-fat, plant-based diet that eliminates dairy products, in combination with exercise,
smoking cessation, and stress management, can not only prevent heart disease, but may also reverse it."

Do you have a citation for this quote?

I love cheese however ! YES!!!

From nutritional reading I have gleaned that the things to avoid in your diet are highly processed foods:  refined sugars, refined carbs, partially hydrogenated fats . . .

My diet includes meats (love cow), fats (animal fats, fish oil, plant fats that haven't been processed), eggs, fruit, and complex carbohydrates (most often un-cooked).  No nuts; for some reason I gain weight fast eating nuts.  This is the simplest for me, as I don't have to worry about supplementing to get the proper nutritional mix.

 -- Spiff

 

[slynne]

Yes, there is some evidence that full fat dairy may not be as harmful as once thought. It doesnt really matter though. It may be my French ancestry but I decided a long time ago that a life without cheese was not a life worth living and a shortened life WITH cheese would be better than a longer life without cheese. Did I mention that I love cheese? I have 6 kinds of cheese in my house right now (chevre, chedder, parmesan, cream cheese, swiss, and camembert )

 

[Gideon33w]

Homo Sapians are omnivores. Furthermore, it can be difficult to get all 9 essential amino acids without red meat. Let alone important phytonutrients.
If going green is your concern then there's FAR for efficient ways to cut down your footprint. All without the complexities of proper vegetarian diet management.
Just have health concerns? In that case, there's TONS of pretty standard dietary items you would do well to avoid ... *Cough-dairy-cough*
All that said, most Americans consume VASTLY more meat than anyone should recommend. Just about everyone could halve their intake and be healthier for it.

 

[owl]

Haven't been around here for a couple of years, seems some new, fine minds have appeared.

 

[akrvbob]

Owl, I'm glad you're back and hope you stay awhile. But lets not derail this thread.

Why don't you go and start an "I'm back", thread instead.

 

[veganmann]

Several years ago there was a popular bumper sticker promoting vegetarianism. It showed a large, lean, handsome, buck deer with a huge rack leaping effortlessly over a fence. On the other side of the fence was some tall grass and it said simply, "Deer eat grass." Of course the implication was that grass had all the nutrition the deer needed to grow big and strong, inferring that people could similarly adopt a vegetarian lifestyle and be strong and lean like the deer.  

.....

Chip

Many people insist that eating animals is “natural” — and therefore morally neutral — because other animals eat animals. But it’s important to realize that, with a few exceptions, when humans kill other animals for food, we’re not doing what animals do in nature. Humans have no biological need to consume meat or any animal products. When animals kill other animals for food, they do as they must, in order to survive; they have no choice in the matter. Many humans, on the other hand, do have a choice, and when people with access to plant-based foods choose to continue eating animals anyway — simply because they like the taste — they are harming animals not from necessity, but for pleasure. Yet harming animals for pleasure goes against core values we hold in common — which is why, for example, we oppose practices like dog fighting on principle. It can’t be wrong to harm animals for pleasure in one instance, but not the other.

Furthermore, it makes no sense to selectively model our behavior around other animals. Do we fornicate or copulate in public like other animals do? No. Do we kill our newborn children based on the fact that certain animals have done so under certain circumstances? Of course not. Yet when it is convenient for our argument, we claim that eating animals is normal and natural because a very small percentage of animals do so. Regardless of what other animals do, if you are not vegan, you are paying someone to needlessly harm animals in a way that would traumatize you to even witness.

 

[jonsun]

most people aren't killing animals, they're buying a steak from the supermarket.

 

[lenny flank]

most people aren't killing animals, they're buying a steak from the supermarket.

Most people also fertilize their plants with dead animals.

 

[Cammalu]

Do we fornicate or copulate in public like other animals do?

I refuse to answer that on the grounds..... never mind

 

[slynne]

I have zero moral problems with eating meat. I dont think it is any more immoral than eating other living things like plants. Did you know that there is increasing evidence that plants feel pain and even communicate with each other? Vegans just draw the line in a different place. Which is fine. I think it is fine to kill plants for pleasure in the same way it is fine to kill animals for pleasure (and oooooh what a pleasure a nice juicy steak can be!)

What I do find immoral is criticizing other people's food choices but that comes from a lot of personal growth around recovering from an eating disorder. To me it feels a lot like when people are critical of other people's sexual choices. But obviously many vegans dont share that moral view although fwiw the moralizing of some vegans is where a lot of stereotypes about vegans come from.

 

[bullfrog]

The earth eats us all eventually so turn about is just and fair.

 

[TrainChaser]

Veganmann, overall, morals don't really apply to the human race; we don't have any unless they're convenient to impress others with our superiority. For a species that has instigated mass killings of its own kind since the beginning of time, the moral question of killing and eating lower animals is likely never to be a real issue.

But I do doubt your hypothosis, due to the fact humans require vitamin B12, and the main source of it is in animal meat. Yes, we can buy it in supplement form, but if we were 'meant' to require it, one might assume that we were 'meant' to acquire it in natural forms. But I must admit, I am a dedicated carnivore -- if I go more than 24 hours w/o meat, I go into a disgusting withdrawal: my forehead drops, my jaw gets larger, and I start seeing clubs everywhere. It's pretty pathetic.

Someone once said that he had discovered the missing link between the ape and civilized man: it's US!

 

[Gideon33w]

Many people insist that eating animals is “natural” — and therefore morally neutral — because other animals eat animals. But it’s important to realize that, with a few exceptions, when humans kill other animals for food, we’re not doing what animals do in nature. Humans have no biological need to consume meat or any animal products. When animals kill other animals for food, they do as they must, in order to survive; they have no choice in the matter. Many humans, on the other hand, do have a choice, and when people with access to plant-based foods choose to continue eating animals anyway — simply because they like the taste — they are harming animals not from necessity, but for pleasure. Yet harming animals for pleasure goes against core values we hold in common — which is why, for example, we oppose practices like dog fighting on principle. It can’t be wrong to harm animals for pleasure in one instance, but not the other.

Furthermore, it makes no sense to selectively model our behavior around other animals. Do we fornicate or copulate in public like other animals do? No. Do we kill our newborn children based on the fact that certain animals have done so under certain circumstances? Of course not. Yet when it is convenient for our argument, we claim that eating animals is normal and natural because a very small percentage of animals do so. Regardless of what other animals do, if you are not vegan, you are paying someone to needlessly harm animals in a way that would traumatize you to even witness.

Those pointy teeth in your mouth are canines. Specifically designed for the breaking down of meat. That meat contains essential amino acids which would be impossible to procure from plant matter if we didn't live in the modern world where you can enjoy plant matter which would be otherwise be wildly exotic to your location. Even with the modern world and global food there is a both a monetary and ecological impact if you wish to be a healthy vegetarian. Indeed, if everyone attempted to switch there would be no way to produce enough food for the earth's population.

If it is a question of survival then one can survive minus their left arm. In fact, you could than make you own clothes with less wasted fabric since there's no need for a sleeve on that side. That doesn't make it a good idea. You're bypassing the consequences of the method and grasping onto singular results.

I have no desire to cause pain to another sentient creature. But you are crossing lines between killing/harming for sport and killing/harming for pleasure. The steak you buy in the store comes from a cow which felt no pain. That's besides the fact that the pleasure portion comes from the consumption and NOT from the act of harming the creature.

Carnivores/omnivores are a smaller percentage of the ecosystem by pure math. If it were flipped, they would consume all the others. That said, the most populous creatures on earth are insects and almost exactly half are not plant eaters at all.

At the end of the day, you sound more like a religious zealot than anything (not being mean just my observation). Nobody cares (or should care) what you choose to put in your body. It simply isn't their business. But if you actually wish to have a discussion on the topic you need to be prepared with actual information and be open to opposing arguments. Otherwise, that zealot type attitude and appearance creeps in.

 

[Cammalu]

The steak you buy in the store comes from a cow which felt no pain.

Gideon I'm a meat eater and hunter. I've also had plenty of livestock. The truth is that those cows are inhumanely put on cattle trucks that are a nightmare. I don't suppose you ever were shocked with a hotshot but I have been and it's no picnic. It hurts like hell and that's what's used regularly to get livestock to move.

Cattle end up riding long periods without water in horrendous conditions some with broken bones and other cattle walking on top of them. The feed lots are a filthy place and the slaughterhouses a nightmare. Those animals are terrorized on the way to slaughter and yes, they are hurt.

On the other hand a nice fat deer walks across my property and has had a pretty good life. He's free and fat and even fed by special crops just for him. He isn't terrorized once his whole life and then you hear the crack of the rifle and he's down and dead and never knows what hit him. He's never tortured and the kill is clean. Not so for any livestock that I know of.

I'm sitting here munching on chicharones by the way so I do eat livestock too but I'm not closing my eyes to the fact of what happened to put them here.

 

[veganmann]

I have zero moral problems with eating meat. I dont think it is any more immoral than eating other living things like plants. Did you know that there is increasing evidence that plants feel pain and even communicate with each other? Vegans just draw the line in a different place. Which is fine. I think it is fine to kill plants for pleasure in the same way it is fine to kill animals for pleasure (and oooooh what a pleasure a nice juicy steak can be!)

What I do find immoral is criticizing other people's food choices but that comes from a lot of personal growth around recovering from an eating disorder. To me it feels a lot like when people are critical of other people's sexual choices. But obviously many vegans dont share that moral view although fwiw the moralizing of some vegans is where a lot of stereotypes about vegans come from.

There is a reason why we don’t hesitate to walk our dogs in the park on the grass, yet if someone were to kick our dog on that walk in the park, we would find this morally objectionable. It would also be within our rights to press criminal charges against the offender. Plants are not sentient beings with thoughts, feelings and a central nervous system, but the animals we exploit for food clearly and regularly demonstrate that they are highly sentient, emotionally complex individuals who are aware of and value their individual lives. Why is sentience such an important distinction? Here’s a more detailed explanation. And, of course, even if plants were sentient, raising animals for food requires vastly more plant feed crops than if we were to eat plant foods directly from the source.

 

[veganmann]

Those pointy teeth in your mouth are canines. Specifically designed for the breaking down of meat. That meat contains essential amino acids which would be impossible to procure from plant matter if we didn't live in the modern world where you can enjoy plant matter which would be otherwise be wildly exotic to your location. Even with the modern world and global food there is a both a monetary and ecological impact if you wish to be a healthy vegetarian. Indeed, if everyone attempted to switch there would be no way to produce enough food for the earth's population.

If it is a question of survival then one can survive minus their left arm. In fact, you could than make you own clothes with less wasted fabric since there's no need for a sleeve on that side. That doesn't make it a good idea. You're bypassing the consequences of the method and grasping onto singular results.

I have no desire to cause pain to another sentient creature. But you are crossing lines between killing/harming for sport and killing/harming for pleasure. The steak you buy in the store comes from a cow which felt no pain. That's besides the fact that the pleasure portion comes from the consumption and NOT from the act of harming the creature.

Carnivores/omnivores are a smaller percentage of the ecosystem by pure math. If it were flipped, they would consume all the others. That said, the most populous creatures on earth are insects and almost exactly half are not plant eaters at all.

At the end of the day, you sound more like a religious zealot than anything (not being mean just my observation). Nobody cares (or should care) what you choose to put in your body. It simply isn't their business. But if you actually wish to have a discussion on the topic you need to be prepared with actual information and be open to opposing arguments. Otherwise, that zealot type attitude and appearance creeps in.

there are several serious problems with the “canine teeth” argument, the most glaring one being the premise that “the presence of canine teeth = meant to eat meat.” In truth, with the exception of rodents, rabbits, and pikas, nearly all mammals have canine teeth. In fact, several herbivores and primary plant-eaters have ferocious canine teeth.

 

[Bast]

If you consider the entire biosphere everything living is both predator and prey. Humans as is everything else constantly under attack by predator who just can't wait to eat us, some of which we can defend ourselves against and some of which we can't. How many viruses and bacteria has your immune system killed today to defend itself. Killing whether a carrot or a cow or a virus is a fact of life.