Thoughts on Preparing for Winter.

[Phantom Blooper]

If you were to stay in a campground with facilities if opened....consider they maybe like some of the northern states ...they may turn off the H2O until the weather warms...... so you may have to prepare for that. In any event good luck and stay warm and dry!

 

[akrvbob]

Heating the cab is a crazy idea that makes no sense and is solving a problem that doesn't exist. In fact it will make it worse! If you use propane--which most of us do--you'll be pumping moisture into the cab. Then when you leave for the day it will cool off and freeze, creating the problem you are trying to solve.

You want an insulated divider (it doesn't have to be a wall, it can be reflectix, a sleeping bag or insulated curtains--or all three!) and when you make it, include a vapor barrier which will keep the moisture out of the cab. All you need is a sheet of heavy mill plastic that will cost less than $10.

The plastic will also keep frost from the inside of the front windows which will increase your stealth.
Bob

 

[One Awesome Inch]

I have a partition insulated with 2 inch foamboard and I am going to put some weather stripping around my parttion door to help seal it up better. However, that seems a bit ridiculous in light of the fact that I was thinking of cutting a 2 inch hole in the bottom of the partition wall. The reason being is that I have a rear lisence plate vent onto which I will be attaching a computer fan. With rainguards on the driver/passenger windows and utitlizing the 2 inch hole in the partition wall I want to be able to have a slow but steady current of air coming thru the van.


I will be able to close up the rear lisence plate vent and the 2 inch hole in the partition when necessary. I will also utilize my Fantastic Fan for ventilation. It just rains so much here I want to have more than one ventilation option.

I assume since the  air will be sucked thru the front windows and out of the cab that moisture build-upin the cab from propane use will not be an issue?

 

[SoulRaven]

Hello off grid.  The icicles formation makes sense to me!! I am working in my build and if you have a divided compartment with an over the cab / over head compartment, ( mainly only high roof models) makes even more sense! !!   My approach will be trying to make water drain to the rear and seal/insulate the over head cabin from the front.  Hopefully that'll prevent water and moisture to drain through the windshield into the controls and electronics.

Thanks for raising awareness of that. Do you have more details about that issue?

I saw it once first hand in Alaska with a camper van, and it wasn't at all uncommon that if a truck had sat unused in the yard for a while, for them to have a thick coating of ice on the insides of all of the windows.

Two days ago in the morning when I got up, my windows were covered with moisture on the inside, and the whole van felt damp.  It wasn't below freezing, and a quick look around showed that all of the other vehicles up and down the street had fogged over windows as well.  Just the weather playing with us.  Heat and ventilation is the only solution.  Insulation won't stop it, and without heat and ventilation in the cab, that moisture isn't going anywhere by itself.  Heat greatly improves the process of removing the moisture.  Ventilation definitely helps, but without the heat it can take a very long time.

So it was 58f in my van the other morning and I already had a couple of windows open for ventilation over night.  I cranked up my heater, and let it run until the van reached 80f inside.  By the time it reached 80f, everything in the van, including the cab, was bone dry.

I would rather heat my cab and cabin in one easy motion, rather than deal with each separately.  I only average about $60 a year for my heating and cooking costs, so heating my cab is a no brainer for me.

 

[akrvbob]

We're talking about winter not summer. Of course you can leave it open in summer.

The answer in the winter when it's actually cold is to keep the moisture from getting into the cab. You do that with a vapor barrier between the front and rear.

Heating the cab makes it worse not better when you live in a van.

During the winter all your heat pours out of the windows up front. You'd be much better off putting in an insulating wall with a vapor barrier and leaving the front windows down a bit

Of course insulation is the answer unless you live in a very hot area. Everyone on the planet but you knows it. Apparently you live in a magic world where everything is perfect and goes your way.

The rest of us actually live in the real world.
Bob

 

[SoulRaven]

We're talking about winter not summer. Of course you can leave it open in summer.

The answer in the winter when it's actually cold is to keep the moisture from getting into the cab. You do that with a vapor barrier between the front and rear.

Heating the cab makes it worse not better when you live in a van.

During the winter all your heat pours out of the windows up front. You'd be much better off putting in an insulating wall with a vapor barrier and leaving the front windows  down a bit

Of course insulation is the answer unless you live in a very hot area. Everyone on the planet but you knows it. Apparently you live in a magic world where everything is perfect and goes your way.

The rest of us actually live in the real world.
Bob

No Bob, I actually do live in the real world, one that can sometimes have very cold winters, and very hot summers.  The reason everything is good and goes my way is from lots of experience, and actually knowing what I'm doing.

From Fairbanks up to Prudhoe Bay with temps of -40f and below to desert areas at up to +120f, I've figured out what actually works.  Before retirement I had to go where I was told,  I didn't have the luxury of picking places with friendly weather.  But you learn real quick what works and what doesn't.  Good heating, good cooling, lots of opening windows, sun in the winter, and shade in the summer is what works.

All I can do is offer good advice from over 50 years worth of experience.  Whether people choose to listen is up to them, if they like your advice better and fail, at least they'll know there are other options that have worked for many people for many years.  I learned most of what I know from others who had been on the road for many many years themselves.  I chose to listen to them and learn from them, and learn from all of the mistakes they had made, and the stories they had to tell about those mistakes.

I've been out here for over 50 years, and I'm still learning new things, like this stove top oven.  http://theboatgalley.com/omnia-stove-top-baking-oven/

Or this stovetop BBQ with a lid.  http://www.teletronusa.com/kitchenartoven.html

I haven't tried either of these yet, but my philosophy has always been that if anybody can show me a better way, I'm all ears, but when people suggest the same old stuff that either myself or many others have proven to be failures, no thanks, I'm not going backwards.

 

[Gary68]

from a mechanical point of view,do whatever it takes to not have condensation in your cab area,the moisture on the inside of your windshield is all you see but it's everywhere including inside your dashboard

 

[SoulRaven]

from a mechanical point of view,do whatever it takes to not have condensation in your cab area,the moisture on the inside of your windshield is all you see but it's everywhere including inside your  dashboard

Thank you!  You did a better job of describing what was in my head than I did.

I don't understand why people think that blocking it off will somehow magically prevent condensation.  It happens in every parked vehicle if the weather is right, lived in or not, but heat and ventilation can go a long way towards minimizing it.

 

[highdesertranger]

because if you block it off you will not get the condensation from you breathing and cooking. which can be substantial. highdesertranger

 

[Gary68]

i can see it both ways

if your stationary for a time and running a propane heater,blocking the cab might be useful

i'm in oregon where i might of encountered some moister and circulation is a key or mold will set in

i plan on a tiny tot like charcoal/wood stove since thats what i have lived with most my life and it is dry heat

 

[Gary68]

but i did enjoy the "real world" comment as if there is a fake one

 

[masterplumber]

Just some reference points, and because I think both views being expressed may have some validity - boy do I sound like a politician. Sometimes something works, but the reason it's working may not be what you are actually seeing. IE... sometimes the original design of the vehicle is playing a role that is not obvious. So here's what I know from years working on buildings, mainly in the plumbing and heating trades. And from what I've learned camping short and long term in everything from a class C to a tent.
Burning LP puts approximately 1 gal of water vapor into the air for every 100 cubic feet of gas burned - a 20 lb tank holds approximately 176 cubic feet of gas
While it varies, , from what I can find the average person breaths out 192 liters of water while sleeping 8 hours - some is breathed back in, but it's still a lot.
So we have a lot of water to get rid of before it reaches the dew point - the point it changes from vapor to water IE... condensation. This point varies with ambiant temperature and humidity, which is why some people experience it at 50 degrees F and others don't. Insulation helps to hold the heat in longer, so the vapor has time to get out before getting to the dew point, but it still has to have a way out. Since warm air rises, and our breath and output from a heater are warm, the exit really needs to be up as high as possible for maximum effectiveness - IE... a roof vent. But it doesn't have to have a fan for this to work, just be partially open since convection is at work. It does however need some replacement air coming in down low or the whole convection cycle shuts down - think about how a fireplace chimney works and you have the idea. Some vans have leaky enough seals around the door bottoms to provide this air, some do not. But part of my point is, when you crack open the windows you're not just providing oxygen for the heater to burn, you're also providing circulation air - either out or in depending upon the vehicle, and sometimes both.

The best real world example I can give you is my hunting tent. I used to use an old canvas Army Arctic tent, great tent but required a horse to carry it and the wood stove into the wilderness. My hunting buddy and I wanted to backpack hunt so I splurged and bought a Kifaru Tipi and folding stove - total weight 14 lbs partially due to it being sewn out of parachute fabric - great stuff, but not breathable like the canvas. The first night we zipped up the doors tight and woke up the next morning drenched due to the condensation from just our breath - and this is not a small tent, I've slept 9 in it in a pinch. The next night I opened the bottom foot of the door on the windward side, and the top 6'' - 8'' on the leeward side (wondered why they put 2 way zippers on a tipi door) and convection took care of the rest - next morning we woke up dry.

Hopefully this helps, and I didn't just put all of you to sleep. If so, wake up! I'm all done.

 

[highdesertranger]

hey Gary make sure you give us a review of your stove. I have been looking at those. highdesertranger

 

[akrvbob]

I've lived in Alaska for 45 years and 6 years of those years inside a van and I built two houses. I've studied and experimented with every way to stay warm in this case common sense works the best: insulation with a vapor barrier. It is so baffling to me that I have to defend something as simple as using insulation and a vapor barrier that I can't believe it. But I'll do it one last time in very simple terms. First, lets define the problem:

It's winter which means it's below freezing 24 hours a day, it never gets above freezing. Our goal is two-fold:

1) to have as little frost on the windows of the cab as possible
2) be as comfortable as we can and keep our heating costs as low as possible.

There are two ways to minimize frost in the cab of a van:

1) Keep it above freezing 24 hours a day by running heat 24 hours a day--this is what I did in Alaska when it was minus -30 at night and minus -20 during the day. If it ever drops below freezing you WILL have frost because you are in there breathing!! You'll have to stop breathing to eliminate frost. Running heat 24 hours a day will eliminate frost up front, but will cost you a LOT of money and most of you are too afraid of propane to do it. I couldn't afford to spend that much money so I did number two below.

2) Minimize the amount of moisture going into the cab by using a vapor barrier and insulation between the front and the back . This has several HUGE advantages: A) You can open your front windows so the moisture in the air can get out of the van B) it keeps the heat from the back from escaping through all the glass and openings in the cab. You stay more comfortable and you burn a LOT less fuel because you are heating a much smaller area with much less glass in it. Glass has extremely low R-value and heat will pour out of the windshield and side windows. We're worried about stealth so you can't cover them

Quite simply, there is every good reason to put up an insulating-vapor barrier between the front and back and ZERO reasons not to.
Bob

 

[Almost There]

Something that people on here keep forgetting is that the term 'cold' is relative.

Bob probably doesn't consider it cold until it's at least 0 F. He's lived in Alaska for years.

1AI likely starts thinking it's cold out when the temp drops below 45 F. He's in Vancouver BC which is described by the website as "Vancouver, British Columbia has a mediterranean climate with dry warm summers and mild winters."

Here's a seasonal weather chart for the OPs' home location.



As you can see, it historically rarely goes below 0 C which is 32 F

It's pretty much useless IMO to talk about insulating to cover Alaska temps and advise on how much heating will be needed unless we're talking about the conditions in which he will be trying to live.

I'm staying out of the discussion since I have no basis for relevance when we're discussing what is cold or not cold - I spent 14 very happy years living in Florida in the winter and then came back to northern Ontario which doesn't see a daytime temperature above freezing for most of 2 months of deep winter...that's why I'm outta here this fall!! If I can see my breathe it's too @#$% cold for me....

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Quite simply, there is every good reason to put up an insulating-vapor barrier between the front and back and ZERO reasons not to.

If I understand you correctly - and I think I do - then I think it needs to be emphasized that it ain't just insulation, it's insulation with a VAPOR BARRIER.  And that pretty much means construction of a solid wall. 

I believe some people try to get by hanging blankets or quilts between the front and the back, in an effort to retain as much heat as possible back in the living area.  I've seen some people advocate that on Class Cs.  But the moisture will blow right through such heat barriers.

It does raise some interesting problems for the people who like to be able to move directly from the back to the drivers seat without exiting the vehicle.  To do that would require a REAL door in the barrier, one that seals tightly.  The moisture will escape to the front through any cracks.  And now you have to design your layout to allow the door room to open.  Certainly an extra complication.

Does that pretty much summarize it?

Regards
John

 

[SoulRaven]

Bob, let me ask you a simple question, what part of Alaska were you in?

 

[highdesertranger]

you could have a flexible vapor barrier. some heavy plastic sheeting, you just need to seal it everywhere. highdesertranger

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

you could have a flexible vapor barrier.  some heavy plastic sheeting,  you just need to seal it everywhere.  highdesertranger

Uhm.  I'm thinking there would be a lot of condensation on the plastic, hdr.  Unless you had a LOT of insulation behind it, maybe . . .

Regards
John

 

[highdesertranger]

well yeah you still need insulation I didn't mean you didn't. only that plastic sheeting could be used as a vapor barrier. oops double negative, o well. highdesertranger