Thoughts on Preparing for Winter.

[compassrose]

There is an RV park right close by. However, they want $200 per week / $800 per month. They may have discount rates for winter, but I have a feeling its likely going to be around $500... I should check though.

You should check and see what that includes. Also if there are other parks in the area, you should check with them as well. Often the monthly rate includes wifi, cable, electric. You may want to explain that you use very little electric in the first place.

 

[SoulRaven]

You're going to need more heat than you have, a lot more heat than you have.

Your wave 3 might be capable of maintaining the temperature once you get it up to comfortable, but raising the temps will take many hours with your setup.

A double burner camp stove on high, should be able to raise your temperatures much quicker. The heaters recommended here are typically chilly summer night heaters. In cold weather they're no good.

When the temperatures start dropping, it's the amount of time it takes to raise the temperature that becomes the important factor. If your driving heat can reach your house portion, perhaps that will be the quickest way to raise you house temps, then you would only need to maintain it.

Your vans heater is probably at least 20k BTU on high, and maybe even more. Use that as a gauge to determine how long with that much heat, it is going to take to heat your whole van, top to bottom, front to back. The colder it is, the longer it is going to take.

Decide what time frame is acceptable to heat your living space, then adjust the amount of heat you have available accordingly.

 

[LeeRevell]

Have to remember the BUT ratings of the various heaters.  The Wave 3 is only 3KBTU - that is pretty light weight.  The Wave 6 is 6KBTUs, twice the output.   Of course it may use more propane unless it gets the van up to comfy quicker then you can ease it off to 'low' to maintain warmth.
My smaller Buddy heater is 4.5KBTU Low, and 9KBTU on High.  My Big Buddy is 4.5KBTU/9KBTU/18KBTU.  It's easier to connect to a 20lb. tank too.  Were I going up to the "Great White North", eh, my Big Buddy would be going along!
Down here my little Buddy does well enough.  When I do stay in a CG with electrical shore power, I have a largish but light-weight electric heater that does well, and no CO fumes issue. It uses 1500W, so about 4.5KBTU  

 

[66788]

You're going to need more heat than you have, a lot more heat than you have.

Your wave 3 might be capable of maintaining the temperature once you get it up to comfortable, but raising the temps will take many hours with your setup.

A double burner camp stove on high, should be able to raise your temperatures much quicker.  The heaters recommended here are typically chilly summer night heaters.  In cold weather they're no good.

When the temperatures start dropping, it's the amount of time it takes to raise the temperature that becomes the important factor.  If your driving heat can reach your house portion, perhaps that will be the quickest way to raise you house temps, then you would only need to maintain it.

Your vans heater is probably at least 20k BTU on high, and maybe even more.  Use that as a gauge to determine how long with that much heat, it is going to take to heat your whole van, top to bottom, front to back.    The colder it is, the longer it is going to take.

Decide what time frame is acceptable to heat your living space, then adjust the amount of heat you have available accordingly.

I have a Dodge High Top that is well insulated and I've used the Wave 3 in temps as low as 17 degrees F. in Oregon while camping in the mountains covered with snow.

I fired up the Wave 3 on high at about 7:30 pm and by 8:30 I kicked it down to low because it had adequately raised the interior temperature, and I left it on all night long while I slept in a van that was about 60 degrees inside.   That's with the roof vent open about 1/2 inch for ventilation, as well as the driver's side window cracked down about 1/2 inch as well.

There is no doubt that the Wave 3 will be a great heater for your stated purpose.   Just remember that proper ventilation is a must, as your life depends on it.   I also use a CO detector as a redundant safety device.

 

[SoulRaven]

I have a Dodge High Top that is well insulated and I've used the Wave 3 in temps as low as 17 degrees F. in Oregon while camping in the mountains covered with snow.

I fired up the Wave 3 on high at about 7:30 pm and by 8:30 I kicked it down to low because it had adequately raised the interior temperature, and I left it on all night long while I slept in a van that was about 60 degrees inside.   That's with the roof vent open about 1/2 inch for ventilation, as well as the driver's side window cracked down about 1/2 inch as well.

There is no doubt that the Wave 3 will be a great heater for your stated purpose.   Just remember that proper ventilation is a must, as your life depends on it.   I also use a CO detector as a redundant safety device.

So you're saying that a Wave 3 raised the temperature in your van from 17°f to around 60°f  in about an hour?

 

[akrvbob]

Having used one for 6 years in Alaska, there is no doubt in my mind that the Wave 3 will be fine in your much milder climate.

OffGrid, the reason you have to have such large heaters is because you don't insulate. Without insulation to hold the heat in you have to spend big bucks and burn lots of BTUs. With good insulation all you need is a good steady small heat source.

Bob

 

[SoulRaven]

Having used one for 6 years in Alaska, there is no doubt in my mind that the Wave 3 will be fine in your much milder climate.

OffGrid, the reason you have to have such large heaters is because you don't insulate. Without insulation to hold the heat in you have to spend big bucks and burn lots of BTUs. With good insulation all you need is a good steady small heat source.

Bob

Bob,

I got away from insulation because it doesn't work.  My heating bill in a larger uninsulated van was significantly cheaper than in the insulated one.  The amount of heat, and the amount of time needed to heat the van is significantly lower than with the insulated van.  In my unmodified van, the heat goes floor to ceiling.  It is warmer at the ceiling, but there is no cold floor.  In the heavily insulated van, anything below beltline remained cold, and the floor was really cold.

My total heating/cooking fuel bill last year was $58, which isn't what I would consider big bucks. I was in below freezing temps for about 3 months of that time.  I don't usually run any heat while sleeping though, unless it's well below zero outside.

I have no doubt that 3k BTU is plenty to maintain the heat in the van, I use far less than that.  What concerns me, is how long it is going to take that 3k BTU heater to heat up his van when it's that cold out, not just maintaining the temperature.

Most of the 3 season camper vans come with 10k-16k BTU furnaces, most 4 season ones come with 20k-32k BTU furnaces.  All of these are highly insulated.

Maybe it's just me, but when I want heat, I want heat right now.  I don't want to play the waiting game.  My system provides me with that.

I might start a separate thread about this, because I am visiting with a friend whose career was building camper vans, and he has many insights and and a lot of knowledge on the subject of camper vans.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Bob,

I got away from insulation because it doesn't work.  My heating bill in a larger uninsulated van was significantly cheaper than in the insulated one.  The amount of heat, and the amount of time needed to heat the van is significantly lower than with the insulated van.  In my unmodified van, the heat goes floor to ceiling.  It is warmer at the ceiling, but there is no cold floor.  In the heavily insulated van, anything below beltline remained cold, and the floor was really cold.

that settles it I am off to pull out all my insulation and will do the same in my 90 year old mothers house, learn something new everyday.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

OFF GRID 24/7,

You do understand that your writings on this subject defies the conventional wisdom, right?  And also appear to contradict things we have seen in our own lives?

For example, my parent's home heating oil bills went down nicely after they added an EXTRA 12 inches of insulation in their attic (over and above the insulation that was put in when the house was built in the 50s)

To me, this appears to be incontrovertible proof that the experts are right, and insulation works.

Respectfully
John

 

[Reven]

OAI -- The key to efficient heating is concentrate on heating the person, not the air. Have you researched thermal mass at all? Back in the middle ages caravan travellers had something called the "iron pig", a large sealed black iron container full of oil that they heated in the fire and kept in their tent.

My brother has a little tow trailer he bought to take hunting and we've been working out ways to keep a heat source going without burning propane all night. He's going to test the thermal mass approach when it gets cool enough to experiment. Basically, heat a block of soapstone in a campfire or over the propane stove until it gets nice and hot all the way through, then transfer it to an insulated box (like a "haybox cooker") under his cot. It will radiate heat for quite a while if it's a nice sized chunk. I don't remember what part of Canada you're in but there's a place in Surrey BC (Cardinal Stoneworks) that has good prices on soapstone if you want to go that route.

Once again; heat the person. A 12-v electric blanket with a heavy quilt over it to keep the heat in can do a lot.

 

[SoulRaven]

OFF GRID 24/7,

You do understand that your writings on this subject defies the conventional wisdom, right?  And also appear to contradict things we have seen in our own lives?

For example, my parent's home heating oil bills went down nicely after they added an EXTRA 12 inches of insulation in their attic (over and above the insulation that was put in when the house was built in the 50s)

To me, this appears to be incontrovertible proof that the experts are right, and insulation works.

Respectfully
John

I had a rather lengthy reply that took me hours to research all of the resources, but when I hit the post button, the page reloaded, but my reply seems to have disappeared...

Trying to compare insulating a house to insulating a vehicle is like trying to compare apples and oranges.  Insulation helps support whoever has the most powerful and the most constant supply of either heating or cooling.  In a house is easy to have the most powerful and constant sources.  This simply isn't true in most instances in a vehicle.  In most instances in a vehicle, it is Mother Nature with the most constant power.

We are only heating or cooling our vehicles on a temporary basis.  With a house, if you shut off the heat or A/C no matter how much insulation you have, Mother Nature is going to win the battle.  The same is true in a vehicle, only it will happen much quicker.

In most instances I see here, when someone is running heat, they need a window open.  If you have proper ventilation, you are totally defeating any advantage you would gain by that insulation.

IF insulation could save me 100% of my heating/cooking costs, it would save me under $60/yr.  It couldn't make me any more comfortable than I already am.  So how many years would it take me to just break even on insulation?  10 years? 20 years?

Since insulation can't increase my comfort, what exactly is the advantage of putting out all of that money up front, in the hopes that MAYBE it will EVENTUALLY save me as much as...  Oh heck, let's say that fuel prices double in the next 10 years, and that I still have the same van, and it is saving me 50% which is highly doubtful, but I want to give every chance of a fair outcome here...  So MAYBE, EVENTUALLY, it might save me a whopping $60/yr.

Now if I took that $1,000 that I save from not insulating, and use it to make money with instead, I could at the very least turn it into an income of $1,000 per month.  Multiply that by 10 years and that money just made me $120,000, at a cost of no more than $60/yr.

Cost vs. Benefit, insulation loses, sorry.

 

[Reducto]

I've done cold weather with and without insulation. With the insulation it was much more comfortable and I only really needed additional heat when it was under 20 degrees and/or very windy. Putting a 2" foam barrier between the cab and rear of my van made the biggest difference, I think.

The only problem I really have around the 20 degree mark is my feet getting cold when I'm up using my computer. I heat 1 liter of water, put it in a bottle, and keep that by my feet. I haven't really done colder than that.

I would definitely NOT recommend getting a Coleman catalytic heater. The catalyst on mine burned off over time and it smelled bad. I don't know what that smell was but it didn't seem safe.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

I had a rather lengthy reply that took me hours to research all of the resources, but when I hit the post button, the page reloaded, but my reply seems to have disappeared...

Trying to compare insulating a house to insulating a vehicle is like trying to compare apples and oranges.  Insulation helps support whoever has the most powerful and the most constant supply of either heating or cooling.  In a house is easy to have the most powerful and constant sources.  This simply isn't true in most instances in a vehicle.  In most instances in a vehicle, it is Mother Nature with the most constant power.

We are only heating or cooling our vehicles on a temporary basis.  With a house, if you shut off the heat or A/C no matter how much insulation you have, Mother Nature is going to win the battle.  The same is true in a vehicle, only it will happen much quicker.

In most instances I see here, when someone is running heat, they need a window open.  If you have proper ventilation, you are totally defeating any advantage you would gain by that insulation.

IF insulation could save me 100% of my heating/cooking costs, it would save me under $60/yr.  It couldn't make me any more comfortable than I already am.  So how many years would it take me to just break even on insulation?  10 years? 20 years?

Since insulation can't increase my comfort, what exactly is the advantage of putting out all of that money up front, in the hopes that MAYBE it will EVENTUALLY save me as much as...  Oh heck, let's say that fuel prices double in the next 10 years, and that I still have the same van, and it is saving me 50% which is highly doubtful, but I want to give every chance of a fair outcome here...  So MAYBE, EVENTUALLY, it might save me a whopping $60/yr.

Now if I took that $1,000 that I save from not insulating, and use it to make money with instead, I could at the very least turn it into an income of $1,000 per month.  Multiply that by 10 years and that money just made me $120,000, at a cost of no more than $60/yr.

Cost vs. Benefit, insulation loses, sorry.

You are in the PNW, right? If so your temps are similar to where I live in Vancouver BC. This past winter when I was just starting my van and just starting to put in the insulation it was about 1 to 0 celcius. The van was uninsulated and I was doing physical work, so was warmer than usual. Even then I needed a winter jacket and toque on my head.

If you live in a van year round with virtually no heat in an uninsulated van you must be a very hearty guy.

I guess what myself and others are trying to say is that insulation just keeps the heat in your van for longer, saving you fuel costs. That's it. Take care and happy Vanning.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

OAI --  The key to efficient heating is concentrate on heating  the person, not the air. Have you researched thermal mass at all?  Back in the middle ages caravan travellers had something called the "iron pig", a large sealed black iron container full of oil that they heated in the fire and kept in their tent.  

My brother has a little tow trailer he bought to take hunting and we've been working out ways to keep a heat source going without burning propane all night.  He's going to test the thermal mass approach when it gets cool enough to experiment.  Basically, heat a block of soapstone in a campfire or over the propane stove until it gets nice and hot all the way through, then transfer it to an insulated box (like a "haybox cooker") under his cot.  It will radiate heat for quite a while if it's a nice sized chunk.  I don't remember what part of Canada you're in but there's a place in Surrey BC (Cardinal Stoneworks) that has good prices on soapstone if you want to go that route.

Once again; heat the person.  A 12-v electric blanket with a heavy quilt over it to keep the heat in can do a lot.

I guess for me I would want to differentiate between living comfortably Vs surviving. I would want to move around my van comfortably without counting down the seconds until I can get back into my "warm spot".

Shortterm, its a great solution, but not for longer term comfortable living... which is my goal.

 

[gcal]

I had a rather lengthy reply that took me hours to research all of the resources, but when I hit the post button, the page reloaded, but my reply seems to have disappeared...

Trying to compare insulating a house to insulating a vehicle is like trying to compare apples and oranges.  Insulation helps support whoever has the most powerful and the most constant supply of either heating or cooling.  In a house is easy to have the most powerful and constant sources.  This simply isn't true in most instances in a vehicle.  In most instances in a vehicle, it is Mother Nature with the most constant power.

We are only heating or cooling our vehicles on a temporary basis.  With a house, if you shut off the heat or A/C no matter how much insulation you have, Mother Nature is going to win the battle.  The same is true in a vehicle, only it will happen much quicker.

In most instances I see here, when someone is running heat, they need a window open.  If you have proper ventilation, you are totally defeating any advantage you would gain by that insulation.

IF insulation could save me 100% of my heating/cooking costs, it would save me under $60/yr.  It couldn't make me any more comfortable than I already am.  So how many years would it take me to just break even on insulation?  10 years? 20 years?

Since insulation can't increase my comfort, what exactly is the advantage of putting out all of that money up front, in the hopes that MAYBE it will EVENTUALLY save me as much as...  Oh heck, let's say that fuel prices double in the next 10 years, and that I still have the same van, and it is saving me 50% which is highly doubtful, but I want to give every chance of a fair outcome here...  So MAYBE, EVENTUALLY, it might save me a whopping $60/yr.

Now if I took that $1,000 that I save from not insulating, and use it to make money with instead, I could at the very least turn it into an income of $1,000 per month.  Multiply that by 10 years and that money just made me $120,000, at a cost of no more than $60/yr.

Cost vs. Benefit, insulation loses, sorry.

I  can't  tell if you are joking or not. If you are really turning a one time investment into a $1000 a month income, i want the name of your broker.

 

[gcal]

I guess for me I would want to differentiate between living comfortably Vs surviving. I would want to move around my van comfortably without counting down the seconds until I can get back into my "warm spot".

Shortterm, its a great solution, but not for longer term comfortable living... which is my goal.

If I  absolutely  had to winter in a van up north with no choice to head south, I  would insulate the hell out of it, get a couple solar panels and an extra battery,  get a 12 volt blanket to sleep under, and get  a Mr. Buddy to fire up first thing in the morning. That way, I would get a good night's  sleep, which goes a long way towards making anything else tolerable. Discomfort in the morning  would be minimized. I could also keep my electronics charged. But I  would still opt for the room with central heating if I did have that choice. 

 

[gcal]

If I  absolutely  had to winter in a van up north with no choice to head south, I  would insulate the hell out of it, get a couple solar panels and an extra battery,  get a 12 volt blanket to sleep under, and get  a Mr. Buddy to fire up first thing in the morning. That way, I would get a good night's  sleep, which goes a long way towards making anything else tolerable. Discomfort in the morning  would be minimized. I could also keep my electronics charged. But I  would still opt for the room with central heating if I did have that choice. 

No idea what is with the enlarged print.I think I  need to reboot this tablet. It's beginning to do develop mental issues.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

If I  absolutely  had to winter in a van up north with no choice to head south, I  would insulate the hell out of it, get a couple solar panels and an extra battery,  get a 12 volt blanket to sleep under, and get  a Mr. Buddy to fire up first thing in the morning. That way, I would get a good night's  sleep, which goes a long way towards making anything else tolerable. Discomfort in the morning  would be minimized. I could also keep my electronics charged. But I  would still opt for the room with central heating if I did have that choice. 

This is a good idea. I could buy a Mr. Heater Buddy and put it right within arms reach. Then fire it up before exiting sleeping bag. I have read that the Mr. Heater Buddy will get a van's interior hot within 10 minutes. My Wave 3 will be mounted on the wall not within arms reach. Hmmm...

 

[Canine]

Insulation?We don need no stinkin insulation.

 

[SoulRaven]

One Awesome Inch

    You are in the PNW, right? If so your temps are similar to where I live in Vancouver BC. This past winter when I was just starting my van and just starting to put in the insulation it was about 1 to 0 celsius. The van was uninsulated and I was doing physical work, so was warmer than usual. Even then I needed a winter jacket and toque on my head.

    If you live in a van year round with virtually no heat in an uninsulated van you must be a very hearty guy.

    I guess what myself and others are trying to say is that insulation just keeps the heat in your van for longer, saving you fuel costs. That's it. Take care and happy Vanning.


I spent 10 years in Alaska delivering supplies to remote villages  and mining operations.  -30f to -50f temps weren't uncommon.

My cabin is in Eagle Nest NM, in the NE cornerish, and it gets really cold there too.  I frequently find myself in some very cold areas in the winter too, Minneapolis area, upstate Maine, North Dakota, and a few others.

Since retirement, if it's cold out, I spend a lot of time in my van.  I run my heat as needed to keep my van in the 70f to 75f range.  Doing so rarely uses more than 2 gallons of fuel per month, occasionally 3.  In Alaska I maxed out at 10 gallons per month in the coldest months in an uninsulated van, and 35 gallons per month in a heavily insulated cargo van.  I usually pay +/- about $2.50 per gallon for my kerosene, and in the warmer months use well under a gallon.  Last year was an especially cold year where I was, and I used a total of 23 gallons of fuel for the year.

So my total cost for the year, to stay warm and comfy in my whole van, wearing short sleeve shirts while inside, was $58.00.

Now to be fair here, there are other factors to consider here too.  If it's sunny out, even though it may be near freezing outside, it can be up in the 60's even 70's inside an uninsulated window van, without running any heat.  I think this is one of the biggest money savers.  In my cargo van, I had to run the heat all day long if I was at home,  in the window van on sunny days, I might not have to run any heat for many hours during the day.

In the end, maybe it's the difference between working with Mother Nature or trying to defeat her.  This stock window van is extremely cheap and easy to either heat or cool, and it keeps me totally comfortable all year long, so why mess with perfection, and why pay money to mess with perfection.  Now if I wasn't already totally comfortable, like when I had that heavily insulated cargo van, then it's time to look at improving your situation, which is exactly what I did.