Social security

[mpruet]

Why should I give free labor to make someone else rich ? (unless I'm angling for a promotion or something) "Trickle down" isn't really a thing, as we've all learned since the Reagan years.
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Going further beyond what you’re currently paid to do makes you more valuable to your employer, and more likely to get good bonuses, pay increases, and more responsibility/opportunities. Also it improves your resume which makes it much easier to get a better job in the future, if/when you decide to leave your current job. All I can say is that the attitude to try to be more productive than I was required really worked for me.

I guess you could say that it’s the fundamental difference between a career and a job. A career grows as you grow while a job just pays for your time.

 

[bullfrog !]

Again it depends somewhat what kind of person is doing the hiring and whether or not the employer cares. Many places plan for x number of employees to do x amount of work, if the job gets done before they planned they lay off employees to increase profits unlike in the past they gave bonuses or promoted supervisors. Not too many look lo the future as it nowadays changes rapidly.

 

[mpruet]

Again it depends somewhat what kind of person is doing the hiring and whether or not the employer cares. Many places plan for x number of employees to do x amount of work, if the job gets done before they planned they lay off employees to increase profits unlike in the past they gave bonuses or promoted supervisors. Not too many look lo the future as it nowadays changes rapidly.

If you don’t see a sustainable career path with what you have, then you can work on skills which will bring you towards more of a career. If hired to do basic construction work, maybe learn plumbing or carpentry. Then you could eventually become independent of ‘the man’ and form your own company. You don’t have to be stuck with the first job you get.

A bit of my history. I was trained as a musician. I was working on my PhD when I decided that it was a dead-end path. I did a one-year replacement at a college for someone working on an advanced degree and I came face to face with what my future. I really didn’t like it.

Because my work load was fairly light, I took a couple of computer courses at that college, and within a year was a programmer for a fairly major company. Before too long I was being recruited for some major computer companies as a field engineer. I eventually ended up working at IBM. I kept expanding my skill set and the amount of work that I could accomplish in a day. Because of my productivity levels, I received some significant bonuses. I initially started out with basic COBOL application development on OS-MVS mainframes, but learned PL-1, c, c++, and the Unix/Linux based environment. This was not only a complete change from my initial job plans, but the work I did continued to evolve through-out my working years.

Like I said, there is nothing saying that what you are doing at one stage of your life is what you have to continue doing.

 

[Morgana]

I'd have to agree with Bullfrog on this. I've rarely found the beautiful advice expressed by career-success gurus to come true in real life. Some managers are threatened even by straight competence, let alone by people who go the extra mile. In my experience advancement takes hard work PLUS willingness to fight for yourself PLUS infinite tact PLUS luck. All of which can quickly be reduced to irrelevance if the guy/gal in the next cubicle is bonking someone in the God Pod. And as Bullfrog pointed out, workplace relations are changing rapidly with less focus on long-term commitments. In the end sometimes all you get is the satisfaction of having done a good job. And you can't eat that.

I once worked for a company that staged a mandatory company-wide two-day team-building workshop and, in the middle of it, arbitrarily fired one of their most competent and popular workers. So much for that team pffffft.

Going self-employed is no silver bullet either; instead of bosses you have clients, who may have even fewer constraints on how they treat you.

Happy if the obvious one-size-fits-all fixes work out for some people, but it would be the height of naivete to assume that they do for everyone.

 

[RonDean]

Maybe I should have worded it a bit differently. By productive, I didn’t mean folks that just did their job and not much more than was expected of them. I meant folks that went way beyond their job description. I know very few folks that were highly productive in their working years that are content to just sit and watch the world go by after retirement. I know a lot of folks that were highly productive in their working years that still have a rather active lifestyle in retirement, either through a second job, volunteer work, or recreational activities. There tends to be an inner drive that makes a person lead a highly productive life during their working years, and that inner drive remains with them after retirement.

I can live with that. As I said, the statements that don't include words like "most, many, my opinion, etc" somewhere are the ones that bother me. Folks that either agree or disagree with me? I am fine with both. The just-posted opinions of dhuff and bullfrog are ones that I can get behind. I have owned businesses, managed a few, and worked for other people. The work contract can be abused from both sides and I think it is good to understand that and not be guilty of it.

 

[RonDean]

Giving it more thought... there is an unfair power dynamic operating here. If an employer "expects" above and beyond performance it is similar to a boss/employee sexual relationship. In no way can it be fair. It is far better to avoid such unequal and potentially abusive relationships entirely. So, with work expectations, I think it's better to have a clearly defined and written work contract. When an employee is asked to exceed its conditions there should be a built-in reward - such as overtime pay. In better-managed companies, unpaid or unrewarded extras are discouraged or outright prohibited.

Like mpruet, I had my share of successes that I worked hard to get. But I think his viewpoints are somewhat "pollyanna-ist" and pushed more by the employers than the working class. I have also witnessed situations similar to what Morgana described. In those cases, the sooner you bail - the better. The world is just not very often all that fair. From the time we are born to either good or poor parents, have good or bad genetics, and throughout the rest of our lives, we must often depend on luck to draw a good hand.

 

[bullfrog !]

Social Security in my opinion, coming from a place where most people did very physical labor all their lives was for those who were lucky enough to make it to 65 years old with out dying from the work environment they lived in. They did those jobs that needed to be done because they wanted to live close to their home. Most families had lived there for generations. Most were farmers that had taken industry or factory jobs because small farms had become money loosing endeavors. As the coal, steel, oil and chemical industry went away they struggled to truck farm enough to eat and get by til they reached 65 determined not to give up what little land they still owned. The School District in many counties is the largest employer. Many not trusting the government with good reason or Social Security to be around long took railroad jobs because they had their own pension and did not participate in Social Security. Not all people in America can live where you want to, work hard, go to school, be successful, save, invest and retire while still healthy in your old age. For many Social Security is all they have. It would be wonderful if employers valued good employees and provided more than 401k programs for their employees but that sure wasn’t happening in Eastern Kentucky when I left there and still isn’t today so I’ve been told by people still there.

 

[mpruet]

Like mpruet, I had my share of successes that I worked hard to get. But I think his viewpoints are somewhat "pollyanna-ist" and pushed more by the employers than the working class. I have also witnessed situations similar to what Morgana described. In those cases, the sooner you bail - the better.

I believe that I said that no one has to feel that they are stuck with their current job. They just need to make sure that their skill set is such that they would be considered a desirable employee to have.

 

[mpruet]

In response to Bullfrog1’s post…

That’s one of the really cool things about today’s technology. My grandkids live in New Zealand and my wife and I live in north Texas. Yet because of today’s technology, we can FaceTime with each other on a daily basis for relatively little cost. When I was a kid, we could only call my grandparents on Sunday after 7:00 pm for only 11 minutes because of the cost.

 

[RonDean]

I believe that I said that no one has to feel that they are stuck with their current job. They just need to make sure that their skill set is such that they would be considered a desirable employee to have.

My opinion is that you are wrong again!

Some people can feel trapped in their current employment for many reasons. When health insurance is tied to your specific job, for example. Changing jobs could leave you uninsured for a long period. If you are discovered to have a preexisting condition, maybe forever. And there are far too many efforts to kill Obamacare for some people like that to risk changing jobs. Some industries still exist that have company stores that can indebt employees. Maybe they have sick relatives that depend on them and moving out of the area is not an option. Maybe their skills are just not in demand and because of low wages, they find getting better skills or saving money to be impossible. I could go on, but you get my point.

As someone said, one size does not fit all. On topic, Social Security is not an optional retirement plan. For most of us, it has become the only retirement plan short of being hit by lightning or hitting the lottery. And, not to mention the number of people who avoid doctors and cross their fingers until they qualify for Medicare.

I refer you to the following web link.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/work-hard-and-youll-succeed-is-a-myth
excerpt: "Work hard and you’ll succeed" has been the simple formula passed from generation to generation, each working 'harder' and becoming more 'successful' than the last, if you believe it. The advice fits snugly with those who romanticize working 'to the bone' and wear their sacrifices as medals. It’s rooted in individualism; packaged as political weaponry. Except, when you listen carefully, you realize it’s usually uttered by those at the top, looking down...

 

[mpruet]

My opinion is that you are wrong again!

Some people can feel trapped in their current employment for many reasons. When health insurance is tied to your specific job, for example. ….Maybe their skills are just not in demand and because of low wages, they find getting better skills or saving money to be impossible. I could go on, but you get my point.

I refer you to the following web link.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/work-hard-and-youll-succeed-is-a-myth
excerpt: "Work hard and you’ll succeed" has been the simple formula passed from generation to generation, each working 'harder' and becoming more 'successful' than the last, if you believe it. The advice fits snugly with those who romanticize working 'to the bone' and wear their sacrifices as medals. It’s rooted in individualism; packaged as political weaponry. Except, when you listen carefully, you realize it’s usually uttered by those at the top, looking down...

First of all, why would anyone quit a job before they had another lined up? That’s just plain dumb. If you have another lined up, then there won’t be any period with no health insurance.

Secondly, I never said work harder. I will say, however, work smarter.

Oh yes - changing jobs to a better position is another time that you should be smart. If it doesn’t look like the new job would present better opportunities then why switch?

 

[SLB_SA]

I don't want to nit-pick, but such blanket statements as "Folks who have always been productive continue to want to be productive." really make my teeth grind. This one suggests that anyone that isn't productive now must have never been productive. I have known many ex-productive folks that are now content to put their feet up and observe the world going by. They MAY BE the more intelligent content among us.

At least insert a "My opinion is..." or "I think..." in there somewhere. I think (<see) putting retirement off until Medicare is available is a good idea for those people that have a choice in the matter.

I continue to be productive (as an author) but do not receive compensation for this. I publish just like I did 40 years ago but this was (and is) technical stuff that does not yield any money. Most people who support open source software do not receive any funds for their efforts. My publications used to help provide raises and promotions when I had a job but not now. Of well. I have started to branch out to fiction writing but it is not ready for innocent eyes (or any eyes except mine).

 

[Morgana]

It's already been said at least a dozen times so I doubt there's much sense saying it again to obviously deaf ears, but one last time (from me) -- it's just plain foolish to think that you know what's going on in other people's lives, or that everyone has access to the same opportunities you have, or that there are any one-size-fits-all solutions. It's a much more complicated world than that in real life.
You know what they say happens when you ass-u-me.

 

[Morgana]

Most people who support open source software do not receive any funds for their efforts

Just the thanks (and admiration) of a grateful public.
(I hear you can eat that if you just add a burger and fries )

 

[mpruet]

It's already been said at least a dozen times so I doubt there's much sense saying it again to obviously deaf ears, but one last time (from me) -- it's just plain foolish to think that you know what's going on in other people's lives, or that everyone has access to the same opportunities you have, or that there are any one-size-fits-all solutions. It's a much more complicated world than that in real life.
You know what they say happens when you ass-u-me.

I fully agree, but I also say this frequently. No one should ever feel that they are a victim to their current circumstance.

 

[tx2sturgis]

First of all, why would anyone quit a job before they had another lined up? That’s just plain dumb. If you have another lined up, then there won’t be any period with no health insurance.

Sometimes, you MUST leave a job due to a variety of situations or circumstances, and may not have another job lined up yet.

Occasionally, not having a 'safety net' when I found myself 'between jobs' can be a real motivator.

I worked in distribution and transportation for most of my life and I can tell you, sometimes you GOTTA jump ship to even begin to look for a better job. It's not 'just plain dumb', its the way it works.

In that industry, showing up at the hiring or recruiting office, and being able to tell the person, 'yes, feel free to call my previous employer', as opposed to 'no, dont call my current employer please' makes a huge difference to the hiring team as to which stack your application ends up in: 'Possible' or 'Pass'.

And certainly before the internet, smart phones, linkedin, facebook, and job-based forums and websites, many of us in certain types of jobs had to 'quit' to be able to physically show up at our next possible employment opportunity.

Not all careers and jobs are the same.

 

[towboater]

Going self-employed is no silver bullet either; instead of bosses you have clients, who may have even fewer constraints on how they treat you.


Totally agree. Everybody works for someone. But I have to say that when I am self employed I m responsible for my own actions and can rarely blame some other dweeb since I m the dweeb.

 

[mpruet]

Sometimes, you MUST leave a job due to a variety of situations or circumstances, and may not have another job lined up yet.

Occasionally, not having a 'safety net' when I found myself 'between jobs' can be a real

true, but that comment was a reply to voluntary changing jobs to get an improved one, and feeling trapped that they couldn’t because of health insurance.

 

[Morgana]

Towboater: I have to say that when I am self employed I m responsible for my own actions and can rarely blame some other dweeb since I m the dweeb

That is a good feeling, isn't it? Kinda makes the whole thing worthwhile, dweebery and all.

Looking back I have to laugh -- the only client who ever stiffed me on payment for services was a UN human rights lawyer -- you really get to see people's non-public side when you freelance. I used to chant to myself sometimes: "The reason we're employable is that we're expendable." I tried to charge enough to compensate for some of those rough edges. But I'm kind of a bidding wimp so ehh. More good than not good, IMO. I wouldn't go back and do different (but I'm glad I don't have to do it again).

 

[RonDean]

This post is more about threads.

I know these threads (topics) often wander. I may be as guilty as anyone. I thought this one was about Social Security - threats to reduce benefits, as a retirement plan, etc. But it keeps being sidetracked to things we might have done differently in the past, why would working people want or need to change jobs, or why don't they? Add in what we could have/should have/still can change about our own budgeting. Admittedly, there is some benefit to many of those topics as well. Since we are generally talking about income, it might be more beneficial to most of us to toss in the gig economy, remote employment, and possible nomadic opportunities. When, if ever, should we ask a moderator to split off and start a new thread?

Are we done talking about Social Security? Does it even matter, except to those like me more interested in the original conversation?