Social security

[tx2sturgis]

Some argumentative posts have been deleted.

Reminder: Lets stay on topic and try to keep things civil.

Thank you.

 

[user 22017]

There have been many studies about the history and behaviors of Millionairs. I’ll admit that one million is not what it used to be, but it’s a good indication of wealth.
A couple of facts from the studies…

About 7.6% of the US population are millionairs.

About 1,700 U.S. millionaires are made every day.

About 78% of the millionaires in the U.S. Started out as lower middle class/poor.

Links please.

And for your reading pleasure:

According to a groundbreaking new working paper by Carter C. Price and Kathryn Edwards of the RAND Corporation, had the more equitable income distributions of the three decades following World War II (1945 through 1974) merely held steady, the aggregate annual income of Americans earning below the 90th percentile would have been $2.5 trillion higher in the year 2018 alone. That is an amount equal to nearly 12 percent of GDP—enough to more than double median income—enough to pay every single working American in the bottom nine deciles an additional $1,144 a month. Every month. Every single year.

https://time.com/5888024/50-trillion-income-inequality-america/

 

[user 22017]

https://millionairefoundry.com/mill...health,,22 percent grew up in the upper class

Not even close to a legit source.

 

[mpruet]

Not even close to a legit source.

If you had taken the time to actually read the source, you would have seen that the article is mainly quotes and links to highly reputable published documents.

 

[mpruet]

I learned a long time ago that if I wanted to be a great athlete that I needed to do what the existing great athletes did. Or if I wanted to be a great musician I needed to do what the great musicians did. Basically it was up to me to become what I wanted to be, and the best way to do that was to emulate those who were successful.

The same is true with reaching a point where I have a comfortable retirement - do what the folks with a comfortable retirement do - and for most folks that means saving/investing a good percentage of your income. If people with a decent retirement save over 20% of their income, then that’s what I knew I needed to do. And yes, it worked.

I strived to always be considered valuable to my employers and as a result, regularly saw pay increases and other incentives to remain an employee. Whenever I received a pay increase over 1/2 of that increase went into automatic saving. Most of any bonus that I received went directly into saving/investments. I knew that things such as pensions were pretty much a thing of the past and that it would be up to me to provide for myself once I was no longer part of the work force. Many years ago I studied how much I would need to be able to have income in my retirement and discovered the 4% rule guide. That became my target.

When I was a little guy, my grandfather told me this little truth when I earned my first dollar. (Got that from helping catch chickens in a large chicken house.). Give away 10%, save 20%, spend 20%, and live on the rest. And that mundane advice is still valid. Yep - work hard, save, be generous, and live on about 1/2 of what you make.

I get really tired hearing folks complain about wealthy folks and whining that it’s not their fault that they don’t have enough to live comfortably now - that the 1% stole their wealth — totally denying personal responsibility.

Back to Social Security. The numbers don’t look good and there will probably need to be some changes. Personally I think that the existing income caps need to be removed. Also I think that things like optional early retirement should be eliminated. I’d be willing to even impose means testing, but only if the limits on IRAs are raised to the level of a 401K. (Again making it easier for an individual to be personally responsible.)

But I’m far more worried about the national debt than SS.

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^ I agree until that 1% whether it be people or corporations use that wealth to form monopolies or buy political power that affects my costs and buying power of the money I make through my labors. It bothers me when an individual cannot earn enough through their labors to house and feed themselves as well as take care of their health so they can continue to work and be able to save. As you state a lot of that goes back to how well they were trained when they were young. Many didn’t have the guidance you had and our society failed to give it to them. Free public education and training are important.

 

[WanderingRose]

get really tired hearing folks complain about wealthy folks and whining that it’s not their fault that they don’t have enough to live comfortably now - that the 1% stole their wealth — totally denying personal responsibility.

I have not read that here, tho it’s possible I missed it.

People have different capacities for earning, for accepting personal responsibility, for setting realistic goals, making good decisions, etc., for many different reasons, which affects their ability to save even for emergencies, much less for retirement.

And many can’t actually “retire”, they work til illness and/or infirmity prevent them from keeping on, then living on SS because there is nothing else.

You seem to be very sensitive to this issue, but I think it is important not to paint with a broad brush.

I read a really excellent book years ago, called “The Millionaire Next-Door” https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+mill...324233&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_9age6ft1k4_e

If this book were a part of high school Social Studies, or otherwise required reading and doing a book report, it would help many young people…regardless their backgrounds and extraneous handicaps…set themselves on a good life course.

 

[mpruet]

. As you state a lot of that goes back to how well they were trained when they were young. Many didn’t have the guidance you had and our society failed to give it to them. Free public education and training are important.

Sorta…

When I was in high school, we had to take an economics class - only the class was taught by a teach, not a businessman. I still remember her saying that whole life insurance was a great way to invest money. Of course when you run the numbers, whole-life insurance ranks close to annuities as being poor investments.

It’d be much better to study the life of successful people and discover what made them successful.

 

[mpruet]

^^^ I agree until that 1% whether it be people or corporations use that wealth to form monopolies or buy political power that affects my costs and buying power of the money I make through my labors. It bothers me when an individual cannot earn enough through their labors to house and feed themselves as well as take care of their health so they can continue to work and be able to save.

Money is not a static thing and wealth is not just based on that thing. Wealth tends to be based on the flow of money rather than static cash. Corporations become wealthy when folks can afford their products/services. They have to have a cash flow in order to survive. Jeff Bezos is rather wealthy, but would he have the wealth that he does if folks couldn’t afford his products or take advantage of his services? This is why ‘Trickle down’ is BS. The folks at the high end don’t get their wealth from folks above them. They get it from folks in lower wealth levels purchasing their goods.

 

[mpruet]

You seem to be very sensitive to this issue, but I think it is important not to paint with a broad brush.

I read a really excellent book years ago, called “The Millionaire Next-Door” https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+mill...324233&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_9age6ft1k4_e

If this book were a part of high school Social Studies, or otherwise required reading and doing a book report, it would help many young people…regardless their backgrounds and extraneous handicaps…set themselves on a good life course.

I fully agree that “The Millionaire Next-Door” is great, and it describes the habits of those folks. The key point of the book is just how unpretentious those folks are.

We all have limits, and usually are not able to reach our goals. However one thing that we have total control over is how we use what we have. That’s the basic meaning of the parable of the talents.

 

[bullfrog !]

How many people really have control or are able to control what they have when they cannot obtain shelter, food or stay healthy, you know basic necessities while working minimum wage jobs? There are many working poor in this country. There are many children living in poverty which will evolve into a generational problem. There are some that have just given up trying and have turned to drugs to try to endure causing a more visible problem. CheapRVLiving came about years ago when the problem of affordable housing was starting to raise its ugly head. Today it is much worse in my opinion as the middle class has fallen into poverty. Take a look at the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky to get an idea of how well people can control their fates in general after corporations and their owners have had their way unregulated. History is a good teacher!

 

[mpruet]

How many people really have control or are able to control what they have when they cannot obtain shelter, food or stay healthy, you know basic necessities while working minimum wage jobs? There are many working poor in this country.

Yes there are many working poor in this country, but no one is forcing them to keep the jobs they have, or stay in areas where costs are too high. I’m dumbfounded when I look a homes selling in New York for well over $500K and yet say that the max family income limit is close to $60K/year. Totally illogical, and my immediate response is that it simply is not cost effective to live in NY.

I worked for a major technology company and I was pressured to move to the Bay Area. I calculated just how expensive housing would be there and declined. That might have cost some advancement, but I was still highly productive living in Texas.

If you can’t make ends meet with minimum wage, then start making moves to have a better income. Learn something that will move you to a better position. Information is virtually free these days. Back in my younger days I was trained as a musician. I was fairly good, but I quickly realized that unless I was in the top 0.05%, I wouldn’t have a very lucrative life. So at 24, I looked at the up and coming areas at that time and decided to become a software engineer. I got some free courses, read some books, and developed my skills. Before I knew it, I was getting calls from head hunters. But it’s even easier now with all of the internet resources. Major schools such as Harvard actually offer free online classes.

But I still think that the key thing is to look at what seems to be the up-and-coming areas. It‘s a bit risky because the current growth areas will change quickly. So if you’re not willing to take that route, consider something stable such as in the medical area - manage records, be a nurse, etc. If that’s not your area consider something that folks will pay good money for. Did you know that dog grooming at PetSmart costs close to $100/dog?

The bottom line is that you don’t have to feel stuck. There are plenty of opportunities out there.

 

[WanderingRose]

Yes there are many working poor in this country, but no one is forcing them to keep the jobs they have, or stay in areas where costs are too high.

This a very simplistic viewpoint, as there are just so many mitigating factors figuring in.

Maybe a good volunteer gig for you would be speaking with and working with at risk teens, helping them see there is a way out.

Likely, none of them are on this forum.

 

[RonDean]

...But I’m far more worried about the national debt than SS...

We do not have to make this an either-or question. I was worried about the national debt back when Perot ran for president and my concern has not lessened since. HOWEVER - I am just as concerned (and maybe more so) about the current attacks on SS.

Just as in our personal balance sheets, balancing the government's budget requires we look at spending AND income. That means increasing income (taxes) is just as valid an option as cutting spending. Especially when we are talking about increasing taxes on those that are reaping record profits, seeing their wealth increase, and in many cases paying lower % taxes than those at the bottom of the economic ladder. Contrast that against removing or reducing benefits from those that are already staring poverty in the face.

IMHO, the entire tax system needs a new look. There are many tax avoidance schemes available to the wealthy that are just not fair or balanced. In a country that claims to be non-theocratic I cannot understand why religions can own massive wealth and pay zero taxes. We have evidence that many corporations that are making record profits are paying minimal to zero federal taxes. I could go on AND I could easily provide links should anyone need them, but I am sure all our search sources work pretty much the same.

On the other side of the scale, I am totally OK with some sort of means-testing on exactly who should qualify for SS. I am sure there are some people now collecting SS that are not even close to "needing" it. But I am not OK with cutting benefits to those that actually depend on SS for support.

Finally, on the "millionaire" info that was posted... Although most of the folks in congress are (or become) quite wealthy, there are statistics that show they actually serve the interests of their donors if they want to continue in office. I am not convinced those donors care - or know - or remember (if they ever have been poor) what not being wealthy is like. On the wealth issue in general, while there are always some outliers, successful people are far more likely to have successful parents - making this more of a class issue than otherwise. I know many people claim the US does not have a class society, but statistics disagree. In this case I will post a link> https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/does-the-united-states-have-a-class-system.html

The class system in itself is corrupt because it gives the majority of goods to the smallest number of people, and it is something that needs to be changed if we expect our society to continue functioning normally.

 

[mpruet]

This a very simplistic viewpoint, as there are just so many mitigating factors figuring in.

Maybe a good volunteer gig for you would be speaking with and working with at risk teens, helping them see there is a way out.

Likely, none of them are on this forum.

The only simplistic point is that you, and only you, can make your life the best that it can be. Teachers can’t do it, your friends can’t do it, and the government definitely can’t do it. And while that might be simplistic, it’s one of the greatest fundamental truths.

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^”United we stand divided we fall” “no man is an island” and etc. true the individual has to decide to try but many things cannot be accomplished by one’s self especially if there is systematic oppression to one’s goals. Often it takes a group of people to do so. Social Security is one such group effort in my opinion.

 

[mpruet]

We do not have to make this an either-or question. I was worried about the national debt back when Perot ran for president and my concern has not lessened since. HOWEVER - I am just as concerned (and maybe more so) about the current attacks on SS.

Why am I more concerned about the debt - because in the last quarter of 2022 the government paid $213 billion just in interest on the national debt. That means for an entire year just the interest on the debt is approaching a trillion dollars. It’s rapidly becoming the largest budget item for the federal government. If we didn’t have such a huge interest payment, there would be plenty of money for other things. Currently a huge percentage of our taxes go directly into paying the interest on the federal debt.

 

[mpruet]

^^^”United we stand divided we fall” “no man is an island” and etc. true the individual has to decide to try but many things cannot be accomplished by one’s self especially if there is systematic oppression to one’s goals. Often it takes a group of people to do so. Social Security is one such group effort in my opinion.

This does not mean that you have to rely on others to make you successful. It means that if you take control of your life, you will have influence on others.

 

[WanderingRose]

you, and only you, can make your life the best that it can be.

Right, but some are unable to see or create a way out, for whatever reason.

Which is why mentoring and advocacy can be such a valuable tool.

 

[Morgana]

Nobody can solve your problems for you, but equally, you can't solve your problems alone. That's why we have this thing called society. We /all/ rely on others at one time or another. So do monkeys. So do sardines, for pete's sake. Nobody here made it without teachers, friends, and government.

Argue about how much help, and what kind, and who should give it when, but don't argue about /whether/ to help, because that's a given.

Help from others is a necessary condition of success, but not a sufficient condition. (Well, for trust-fund babies it might be a sufficient condition.)