Scary visit from a BLM officer in Colorado

[Ticklebellly]

If the rules say 14 days in a 30 day period, then the period must start on the first day you camp. There is no wording that indicates any random start date to the period. Wording that specifies a period, like, the calendar month of (say) June, would be clear that you can camp for up to 14 days in the specified period. The "in" word in the rule tells you the 14 days is inside the period. Local interpretation is one thing but the ultimate test would happen in front of a Judge. At that point, any positive relationship with the ranger would be broken.

My point now is that the relationship with the local ranger is important should you wish to return to the spot. Clarifying with the local ranger would communicate that you are keen to follow the rules and want to co-operate. Clarifying with the ranger will get you noticed, in a good way. Once a ranger gets to know you are not a troublemaker and want to stay within their interpretation of the rule, I figure there will be no further scary visits. LEOs are often advised to show dominance in first interactions and gain the upper hand in case of underlying threat. Asking for advice on how to comply with their local interpretation allows the ranger to be sure of the direction of authority and relax.

 

[wayne49]

Asking clarifying questions to a grunt in the field who doesn't make the policy. Don't overdo it.

 

[mpruet]

Last year Colorado had some major forest fires.  One of them (The Spring Creek Fire) was started by a nomad living in a DIY van conversion who cooked outside in a forest while a no-burn alert was in effect.  This fire ended up being one of the largest fires that Colorado has ever had.  I suspect that the rangers have had it drilled into them to watch out for any questionable folks or behavior as a result of those fires.

 

[tx2sturgis]

let me add if I ever see anybody lighting fireworks,  illegally shooting,  or sending Chinese lanterns into the air,  I will turn them in,  without hesitation.  

I guess you will need to put 911 on your speed dial, because:

The Tucson Sky Lantern Festival is coming up next month!

https://www.lightthenightevents.com/events/sky-lantern-festival-tucson-arizona-2019/

Sky lanterns are legal in several states, and if deployed responsibly, in safe areas, with great care, and experience, they are quite enjoyable. Every year at Quartzsite we see dozens or hundreds released on calm cool nights. 

I enjoy sending them up myself.

But I dont send them up where it's not safe to do so, such as too much wind, dry conditions, cattle, horses, or wildlife nearby, forested areas, houses, buildings, etc. 

I always reject and trash the ones that have the slightest imperfection, such as a hole in the tissue, a badly bent frame, stuck tissue folds, etc. Many of the ones with 'defects' cause problems, because they come down while still flaming....not good.

We could argue about the litter they cause when released by the hundreds or thousands....but apparently the sky lantern festivals get a pass on that.

 

[highdesertranger]

ah you better read this,

https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/recreation-programs/recreational-shooting/arizona

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/uploads/FirePreventionOrder_AZ910-2015-001.pdf

the rangers and sheriff at RTR said they are incendiary devices and would treat them as such. they are also illegal in California, Oregon, and Washington.

also I would like to point out that in Arizona ALL FIREWORKS are illegal there are no legal fireworks in Arizona.

I don't know how Tucson gets away with it but I sent them a message asking that very question.

highdesertranger

 

[tx2sturgis]

I'm well aware of the fireworks ban. That's been the law in Arizona for as long as I can remember.

But if you read that notice, and interpret it to the letter, then 'incendiary devices' could mean a propane torch or a firestarter flint used to start a little campfire. 

I do think common sense has to be employed, in all things. Of course, sometimes common sense is not used: dangerous activities, AND potential sources of revenue, can often override common sense.

 

[highdesertranger]

"I do think common sense has to be employed"

exactly. sending an uncontrolled burning device into the air shows no common sense.

highdesertranger

 

[tx2sturgis]

I think snitching on your fellow campers before asking them to stop something, also shows no common sense. 

So I guess it depends on your perspective.

My point is that every situation is different, as in the sky lantern festivals. Or any other kind of gathering, where some people might be doing something that others don't approve of...loud music, excess trash, etc. Now obviously, some things need to be reported, like violence, intentional dumping of black tanks on the ground, illegal firearm shooting, dangerous driving around people or campers, etc...or a single elderly lady facing harassment (or threatening behavior) from a group of young, rowdy males with no regard for her space and privacy. Yeah....time to call the authorities.

But before you call the law, make sure the law NEEDS to be called.  Campers reporting fellow campers should be done when it really NEEDS to be done. We have all seen and heard of the law being called when there was no real reason, other than tempers flared and egos and attitudes are on the line.

It's possible that the OP in this thread was the victim of some 'do-gooder' who reported him to the law for no good reason. 

If I fly my kite (something I enjoy but someone else might not enjoy) and someone doesn't like it because it spoils their view, or disturbs their dog, I would rather they come ask me politely to stop, rather than call the police. 

Common sense goes both ways.

 

[Cammalu]

I have picked up a BUNCH of spent pieces of lanterns in the desert.

 

[travelaround]

Sky lanterns were banned in 29 states as of 2016. Arizona was not one of them.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2015/12/31/update-on-the-legality-of-sky-lanterns-banned-in-28-states/

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think snitching on your fellow campers before asking them to stop something, also shows no common sense. 

It's not my job to stop lawbreakers.  There are too many angry people out there just waiting for an excuse to get violent; not worth it.  Unless someone is in danger of loosing life or health, i don't interfere.   I call in the people who have the authority, and firepower to deal with it.

 

[tx2sturgis]

It's not my job to stop lawbreakers.  There are too many angry people out there just waiting for an excuse to get violent; not worth it.  Unless someone is in danger of loosing life or health, i don't interfere.   I call in the people who have the authority, and firepower to deal with it.

That's an entirely valid point if you don't know them and you don't know what might happen....like I said, common sense....remember that part?

But c'mon...your fellow campers? People you have visited with, or travel with? I would not call the law (as a first resort, 'without hesitation') on my fellow campers for small issues. 

Maybe that's just me.

 

[highdesertranger]

I come from an agriculture background. I have seen first hand wildfires and have been directly involved with several, trying to save livestock. that belonged to us and our neighbors, helping people evacuate their houses with pets and kids that were scared to death. fires started by catalytic converters, by campfires, from fireworks, from kids playing with matches. I doubt any of these people set out to deliberately start a wildfire and I bet they thought they had common sense but in the end they didn't have any common sense, lives were lost, property was destroyed, and lives ruined. the arsonist are a whole different story.

while it's true that there is a fire season and most wildfires are during the fire season the key word is most. a wildfire can occur anytime of year.

also a burning object in the air must come down sometime and while I have never seen a Chinese lantern light a house on fire, I have seen fireworks do it.

I just can't imagine that launching a uncontrollable burning object into the air is a good idea and shows any signs of common sense.

I won't call the authorities for many things. being irresponsible with fire is one of the few things I would gladly report. there is no way in hell you are going to convince me otherwise no matter how you try to justify it.

highdesertranger

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

. . . But c'mon...your fellow campers? People you have visited with, or travel with?

The people I travel with and am familiar know and respect the outdoors (and the law) as well as I do.  If not I won't be traveling with them long.  It's the unknown jerks that (in my experience) are the ones that don't care and don't take admonishment kindly.

Discernment is in all things.  But it sometimes gets too long winded to list all the exceptions to the rule.

 

[tx2sturgis]

So what you guys are saying is, always report all 'lawbreakers' to the authorities? All the time?

Well, what about all the 'campers' (wink wink) who are actually LIVING on federal BLM or NF land, maybe moving every 10-14 days or so, and they have no actual physical domicile, and are earning a living on, and/or LIVING on, federal land, 'illegally'?

Many here have advised that van dwellers and RVers should always tell rangers that they are 'Camping'...because that keeps them 'legal'....but at least, sometimes, it's a ruse...or a lie....

Hmmm....something that appears legal (and justifiable) to one person might actually be 'illegal' to someone else...especially if that someone else has a particular perspective, such as law enforcement. Certainly, your background has a bearing on your interpretations. 

You know, in my 40 years working in the transportation business, I saw a LOT of things that made me shake my head...but it often turns out that the laws mean those things were 'legal'...even if the net effect was very negative to others. 

Common sense is sometimes a moving target. Skyjumpers, bungee jumpers, wingwalkers, and even boxers, all participate in something that I would NEVER do. I mean, jump out of a perfectly good airplane, or jump into a ring with a man who wants to beat the life out of you?

Like I said, common sense should be used. If not, well then, Houston, we have a problem.

 

[cyndi]

^
Apples and oranges. Also semantics.

Whatever. This threads gone way off topic. The subject is a scary visit from a BLM officer.

 

[Gary68]

heres a nice write up on whats been going on in colorado for a while https://www.5280.com/2018/01/danger-in-the-forest/ so the ranger probably has seen plenty of this stuff to be concerned about who exactly is he talking to

keep making those utube vids and cause and effect will kick in

 

[Cammalu]

I always go to the source of the problem and try to reason. Even with my neighbor whose dogs are serial killers of any other animals.

 

[bullfrog]

Yep Cammalu people from our part of the country and background are sorta "hands on people" or are at least perceived to be and other people that cause a lot of petty problems tend to avoid us which is a good thing I think. Had a neighbor that had a dog like that. My other neighbor shot it in the ear while it was on his property threatening his dog, dragged it out to the road and ran over it. When the owner came home he was told how sorry we were his dog got loose and run over. These days out west where people tend to be more civilized it is probably best to let the rangers deal with the crazies that live here or avoid them altogether. It is really pretty easy to just go a little out of your way and abide by the rules or file a complaint with the ranger.

 

[jim solo]

I think I've read every post here on this thread, Most of it is tells me that everybody has different convictions on what is right and wrong. It has brought me to a point of reconsidering my next five years or so. My plan was to be out there for five years or longer, go to a nursing home and then die with a smile on my face.

Now, I'm not sure that I won't end up in some state prison for living a nomadic lifestyle. I thought this would be a way of getting away from the craziness in the world. Not just end up in a different kind of craziness. I was thinking it would be a lot of hard work and relaxing times, not watching over my shoulder for trouble coming 24/7 .

I will probably do it anyway, just to stay away from asshole landlords. Well, at least two LL where good out of 50 years. I'll just be more careful and less trusting of my surroundings, including other campers/nomads. Rules/ laws are a good thing in any society, except when they are abused by some in or out of power. I have a lot of re-thinking to do.