RV Woodburner and Desert

[jimindenver]

I would like to add something. Have you ever been to a home that had a fireplace or wood stove? It can smell like a sweat shirt worn around a camp fire. A good stove is better than a open hearth but you still get it over time. You won't notice but others may smell it in your rig or on your clothes.

 

[cognitive dissonance]

I would like to add something. Have you ever been to a home that had a fireplace or wood stove? It can smell like a sweat shirt worn around a camp fire. A good stove is better than a open hearth but you still get it over time. You won't notice but others may smell it in your rig or on your clothes.

Jim - I have smelled the smell you're talking about. It's becoming more and more unusual to smell it as modern stoves and fireplaces replace older technology.

A bit of a history lesson is in order: in the 1980's, the EPA got involved in the wood stove and fireplace business, by way of mandates for particulate emissions. These regulations were imposed in the usual heavy handed and expensive way that government always does things, and a lot of manufacturers went bankrupt and came out of bankruptcy under new ownership.

Over time, almost all the manufacturers settled on "secondary burn" to meet the EPA requirements. In secondary burn stoves and fireplaces, combustion air is carefully metered. Only about 25% of the combustion air comes in at the floor of the stove where the wood is burning. The rest is superheated as it passes through metal ducts and is then ejected into the path of the smoke before it can exit the stove. Unburned fuel particles in the smoke re-ignite and are almost completely burned, resulting in much higher heat output (efficiency) and far lower emissions.

In order to operate this efficiently, modern solid fuel appliances are very well sealed. They are sealed to the point where you no longer get the odor Jim spoke of, unless something is seriously wrong with your installation.

I installed plenty of gas fireplaces and a few pellet stoves, but I specialized in the high-end of the wood burning market. I put big wood stoves and even bigger wood burning fireplaces in plenty of six and seven figure luxury mountain homes and never once had a complaint about that odor. I was back for dinner in enough of those homes to know firsthand it wasn't a problem, not that I was worried about it even a bit.

The Cubic Mini uses secondary burn, and it is tightly sealed. I have looked at their website and the videos of it burning, and it is a well engineered little stove. Properly installed, there will be no odor.

When I looked into it, the Mini had not been EPA approved. Given the design, it should easily pass the astronomically priced testing if they can get to that point.  

Finally, and I think it was HDR who asked earlier, stoves that are EPA approved are legal to burn on the so-called "no burn" days. If you read the fine print of those regs, it actually says "approved wood burning only"...

 

[AngryVanMan]

i read that cubic was seeking certification on their faq, it doesn't say what certification though. they sell a mounting plate with a duct and diffuser for an outside air intake that sits right under the stove, i got that option when i bought it. the duct does not hook directly to the stove.

I watched videos on the cubic before i got it, one big thing seems to be keeping your flue gas temperature up enough not to get excess creosote buildup. the low total btus means the flue needs to be double walled and/or insulated in some way to keep it from condensing out. in a small rv or van, the extra btus used to keep the stack hot shouldn't be a downside - the guys videos i watched was heating a 30' trailer iirc with the cub all winter, put over a cord through it in one season, thats a lot of small pieces of wood!

 

[DannyB1954]

It would be nice if someone made a small wood pellet stove. I heated my last house with one. Starts easy, shuts down pretty quick, output is easy to control, very little ashes. It does use electricity, but then so do vent fans.

I am thinking a pressurised kerosene lantern may put out enough heat for me. I bought a Wenzel but have not used it yet.

 

[Headache]

that should not turn you against a properly installed propane heating system.  Millions of them are in use and cause no problems whatsoever.

Personally, I find the thought of a wood burning stove in an RV borderline ridiculous.  Far more potential for a disaster than a propane heater, not to mention the free space taken up by the required safety zone around the wood stove.   The exhaust from a wood burning stove produces a lot of carbon monoxide that must be properly vented.    Any leaks could be fatal.

An Olympian catalytic heater produces negligible carbon monoxide, and the proper venting is easily understood and safe.   When not in use the Olympian can be put away for far more usable space.

But it did turn me against using them as does your wording.  By using words such as "should" and "borderline ridiculous" you are invalidating my opinion and very real fear and suggesting your opinion is superior when you've provided no information to back it up.  I'm letting you know so that in the future you might consider a kinder approach towards others whose opinions differ from yours.

As far as "far more potential for disaster"...I see this claim made by others and none elaborate nor provide any proof to these claims.  Here is what I can provide:

As far as a safety zone the Cub stove requires 20" clearance to combustibles on all sides when not using heat shields:  http://cubicminiwoodstoves.com/collections/cub-cb-108/products/cb-1008-br-cubic-mini-wood-stove
In comparison the Little Buddy requires more front and top space while less side and rear clearance without shields: http://www.mrheater.com/downloads/dl/file/id/1/f215100.pdf
And your Olympian(you didn't give a model #) requires more frontal space with a little less top and side space: http://vagabonders-supreme.net/Wave_Catalytic_User_Guide.pdf

Since I am doing a proper installation with proper space and shielding where required this is no more ridiculous than any other install such as putting them in boats, fishing shanties or even tents.

As far as leaks, carbon monoxide and fatalities, the same applies to ANY fuel burning appliance.  However, because of the secondary combustion system in these wood stoves they produce very little smoke and in effect CO2.  Since it "vents" outside via the stove pipe if properly installed I have little concerns regarding emissions and of course will be using proper alarms.

I will be mounting my stove to the rear door and it will be taking up the same amount of space whether I leave it there or put it away elsewhere.  Even if you put away your heater it is still taking up usable space.  What constitutes "usable" is all in the decisions of the person living in the vehicle.  When it is not in use it becomes a convenient shelf.

The Olympian requires the installation expertise of a professional according to the instructions.  This woodstove does not but it is highly recommended someone knowledgeable monitor for those who have never done so.  Wood stoves are VERY easy to use and burn a fuel that isn't explosive.  The instructions are very easy to understand.

cognitive dissonance

The reason wood stoves remove humidity is they warm the air around them, and warm air holds far more water vapor than cold air. In an RV, it is simple to crack open a roof vent to allow the humid air to escape, and to crack a window or even install a floor vent to allow fresh outside air in. Just don't hook the fresh air source directly to the stove, or you'll end up with stale room air!

They do more than that, they dry the air and everything within reach.  Warm air doesn't hold more water, it's the amount of water vapor in the air(humidity) the atmosphere can hold.  I live somewhere that has an average 75% humidity and it's easily more humid here during the cooler seasons than warmer.  The warmer temps just makes it more miserable.  http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadClouds.html

AngryVanMan

I watched videos on the cubic before i got it, one big thing seems to be keeping your flue gas temperature up enough not to get excess creosote buildup.

The other bonus is that the stove pipes will be much shorter than a typical installation making cleaning them much easier to do.  Since we will be spending some time in the desert we won't be burning them constantly.  It's just too easy to sling a brush through the pipes and in the stove once a month or even every few months and not be concerned with build up.  The giant non-air tight woodstove here only gets cleaned out once every couple of years because I burn it that clean.  I'll be using the Cubic Mini much less than the insert here.

 

[Gary68]

I would like to add something. Have you ever been to a home that had a fireplace or wood stove? It can smell like a sweat shirt worn around a camp fire. A good stove is better than a open hearth but you still get it over time. You won't notice but others may smell it in your rig or on your clothes.

depends on what you are burning,woods like oak and ash stink,fir=christmas tree,maple is sweet

i will not use-presto logs,cant control them,either full blast or smouldering and going out,cedar is to oily same problem as the presto logs,cottonwood well you might as well be throwing in rolls of toilet paper

i dont see a reason to have a fixed stove,takes up to much room so i like the tinytots and portable tent stoves,stow them away when not in use
https://www.google.com/search?q=ten...KEwjbs-7LjtnOAhVI9mMKHamaDbwQ_AUICCgB&dpr=1.1

 

[bigsallysmom]

Specifically how will you deal with the ashes?

 

[Gary68]

Specifically how will you deal with the ashes?

bag them and toss in garbage,they are good for gardens and compost too

 

[DannyB1954]

Propane gives off water vapor when it burns. Since most heaters now are non vented, the moisture goes into the room. Wood also gives off water when it burns, but the moisture goes outside.
Wood stoves may actually be safer for people with respiratory problems. No matter how clean propane burns, you are still breathing the end product of combustion. A wood stove will bring fresh air into the vehicle, non vented propane, will not.
If there was only one fuel that worked for heat, there would be only one fuel made.

 

[bigsallysmom]

^^ Oops. Used the wrong word. Let me try this again...
What are you going to do with the coals as you move about?
I'm concerned about the folks who bag them up with the ashes and drops them in a trashcan or leaves them on the ground somewhere. Are you going to find a fire ring to put them in and then wash them down?

I have a mid sized wood stove at my home. I use a big metal trash can and about every two weeks I move the ashes to a concrete block bin and wet them down with lots of water. They still sizzle. A week after I quit adding to it, there were still coals alive. I tried sifting the coals out of the ashes. What a mess. I set the ashes aside in super store bags. The next day one of the bags had a large hole melted in it.

In the winter, cities ask homeowners to not put ashes in their trashcans because the trash catches on fire and sometimes the trash trucks.

 

[AngryVanMan]

The other bonus is that the stove pipes will be much shorter than a typical installation making cleaning them much easier to do.  Since we will be spending some time in the desert we won't be burning them constantly.  It's just too easy to sling a brush through the pipes and in the stove once a month or even every few months and not be concerned with build up.  The giant non-air tight woodstove here only gets cleaned out once every couple of years because I burn it that clean.  I'll be using the Cubic Mini much less than the insert here.

I think this guy managed to clog his pipe almost completely in just a few weeks, had creosote liquids running out of the pipe joints, it was almost comical. I don't think he was damping down the air either, because he was heating such a large area with such a small stove. Stove was mounted about waist high on the wall of his trailer, but that single wall pipe and the lower heat output meant he could touch the flue pipe at the ceiling level without getting burned - keep in mind this was single wall - you know what that means! It's not just that it's a small stove, it's also that the surface area to cylinder (pipe section) volume ratio is worse on smaller diameter pipe, allowing for a larger percentage of the available flue heat to be radiated per linear foot.

The cleaning on the other hand, very easy, especially compared to a brick chimney! I'm not particularly concerned with these issues, but I thought they were worth mentioning. A wood stove requires some maintenance and it's not totally "idiot proof" or set and forget I guess is all I'm saying. I've heated with wood as a supplement for years and I love it, which is why I'm putting this in the van!

 

[DannyB1954]

Creosote is the product of wet wood. I did a lot of research on the topic about 8 years ago when I heated with a wood and a pellet stove. It is commonly believed that there is more creosote in softwoods compared to hardwoods. Not true. The thing that leads people to believe that is wet hardwoods are very difficult to burn, so people will tend to burn more wet softwoods than hardwoods. The moisture is what causes the problem.

As the wood burns it gives up the moisture in the wood. This mixes with creosote and travels up the chimney. Going up the chimney or pipe the water condenses on the cooler surface of the pipe and deposits the creosote onto the inside of the pipe. Without the moisture, the creosote would remain a gas and exit the pipe. All wood has some moisture, so there will always be a need to clean. just how often will depend on what you are burning, (how dry it is).

Another interesting wood fact. Per pound softwoods and hardwoods have the same heat energy. Hardwoods are denser so the volume is a lot less. It looks like you are burning twice the softwoods to get the same heat, but that is because you are looking at the volume, not the weight.

 

[highdesertranger]

as far as the hot coals this is what I do with our tent stove. I take a bucket with water in it and remove the coals from the stove straight into the bucket of water. I leave them there for a few hours and then remove them and let them dry out. you can reuse them once they are dry. ashes go to the fire pit, the fire pit is doused with water after every morning fire. of course I only have fires when it's legal to do so. I am anti fire when there is a burn ban. highdesertranger

 

[Headache]

What are you going to do with the coals as you move about?

I have a metal coal hob with a tight fitting lid that any burned and/or hot material from my stove will be going into and then securely attached to the storage on the back.  Once everything is completely out I will transfer it to be thrown away.  This will allow me to remove any ash  so I can drive if needed.  I'm surprised you had coals last that long even after wetting down.

I think this guy managed to clog his pipe almost completely in just a few weeks, had creosote liquids running out of the pipe joints, it was almost comical.  I don't think he was damping down the air either, because he was heating such a large area with such a small stove.

The cleaning on the other hand, very easy, especially compared to a brick chimney!  I'm not particularly concerned with these issues, but I thought they were worth mentioning.  A wood stove requires some maintenance and it's not totally "idiot proof" or set and forget I guess is all I'm saying.  I've heated with wood as a supplement for years and I love it, which is why I'm putting this in the van!

Was he using a Cubic Mini?  I try not to damp down fires because cutting down the air causes smoke and creosote to develop however, I'm finding out that these stoves require more maintenance because of the secondary burn, smaller flue and cooler pipe temps so insane creosote build up is common if you're lazy.  Since burning firewood is almost a sacred ritual to me as well as a security blanket I'm unafraid of the extra cleaning requirement.

True they aren't completely idiot proof but what is?  Common sense and critical thinking have been traded in on technology and TV doing our thinking for us.  I'm very much looking forward to your install!

JustinCredible installed a Kimberly in his class C but I don't have that kind of cash, sorry to those on strict data diets but I only have videos from those who did the better reviews.  I'll make sure to put the same information on a webpage for you when I get going:



In that video he explains how the stove works especially the secondary burn works which the Cubic Mini also has.  This means most of the heat comes off the top of the stove, not the sides.  He also burns pressed logs.  Keep in mind though the design of the Kimberly makes it so less space from combustibles is necessary than the Cubic Mini.

Here's a guy that installed a Cubic Mini in his travel trailer and he did have to open a door because it got too hot so keep that in mind when using them in a van.  Please install your shield materials properly!  I think this guy was a little too excited about his first burn inside.



This 2nd video is addressing issues(including creosote running down the pipes!).  This is a MUST WATCH!  It looks like using insulated stove pipe and thermal barrier insulation will be requirements for our installs.  Thanks for bringing it up AngryVanMan:



Here is one installed on a boat.  The actual review doesn't start until 2:44.  He's using cut up dimensional wood which I've done here at the house.  Cutting up some scrap 2x4s may be much cheaper than using the pressed logs.  Either way both options are dry and easy to carry along:



Here are a couple videos on how one family cleans and maintains their stove as well as some common issues they had.  Keep in mind it's in a house AND he's not using insulated pipe because he wanted stainless steel.  The creosote build up is insane but apparently all secondary burn stoves are having this issue.  Thankfully we only have about 3-4 feet of stove pipe and a cap to be concerned with which we can brush out frequently.  This guy called Cubic Mini and apparently in the directions it states to clean these stoves weekly.  We'll probably be using our stoves less but they will still be easy to clean since were only talking a few feet of pipe rather than 20 or so.



He figures out to use insulated pipe in this next video.  Cubic is aware of the issue and offer double wall flue pipe now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BprtYd2l0-A

He describes the creosote as starting at about 1 1/2 feet up the pipe from the stove.  For me it will start right where the pipe goes outside.  I just might put in a similar T pipe as he did.

Now to be fair here's a guy that completely hated his stove and he's blaming the stove design rather than dealing with the issues such as his own mistakes and not cleaning it properly.  If any of you feel similar to this guy I'll be very happy to take that stove off your hands.  WARNING!  Some course language!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk409TT1Jfk

For those of you considering putting them in cargo trailers here's a Tiny Tot install and it's a very short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5KPRGK_xqo

AND!!!!  I found the videos of the first time I saw a wood stove in a van.  There's a few but this is wood stove specific and it's a Tiny Tot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McLXBkgGLXo

Putting wood stoves in vans is fairly common in Europe. I can hardly wait.  

 

[AngryVanMan]

videos of tinyhouse prepper are the ones i watched, they were linked directly from cubic mini's website. he mentioned he was using dry seasoned wood, and put in annotations on the videos after receiving so many comments about the wood, but the flue temperature just wasn't staying above 250'F for the entire pipe length, which is the condensation point for creosote forming gases. Anything we can do to keep those temps up should help. I bought the double wall stainless directly from them too to help out with this.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Over time, almost all the manufacturers settled on "secondary burn" to meet the EPA requirements. In secondary burn stoves and fireplaces, combustion air is carefully metered. Only about 25% of the combustion air comes in at the floor of the stove where the wood is burning. The rest is superheated as it passes through metal ducts and is then ejected into the path of the smoke before it can exit the stove. Unburned fuel particles in the smoke re-ignite and are almost completely burned, resulting in much higher heat output (efficiency) and far lower emissions.

I have a couple of questions.  Some of you seem to have done your homework and/or have lots of experience with wood stoves.

The 'secondary burn' sounds like a deliberate chimney fire.  My potbelly stove's flue got very hot just exhausting the combustion gasses (single pipe).  The life of the flue/chimney liner was directly related to the exhaust temperatures.  How do they get better efficiency with that many BTUs going 'up the chimney'?  And how do they get life out of a flue getting that hot?  What am I missing?

I was taught by 'old timers' (guys that had heated with wood their whole lives) to never burn pitch wood in a wood stove (fir, pine).  Yet a couple of you knowledgeable guys mention burning fir, ???

Thanks
 -- Spiff

 

[bigsallysmom]

" I'm surprised you had coals last that long even after wetting down.

I didn't water them down immediately. I placed them in a heavy metal trash can until it was 3/4 full, then carried them down to the ash pit and a good long watering. I liked to move them after a snow storm so I could just shovel snow onto the top of it.

 

[highdesertranger]

for the secondary burn there is a second chamber built inside the stove. this is where the secondary burn occurs. that is the main reason you can get such high btu numbers from such a small stove it is also why you get very little smoke. there is almost complete combustion. highdesertranger

 

[cognitive dissonance]

...Only about 25% of the combustion air comes in at the floor of the stove where the wood is burning. The rest is superheated as it passes through metal ducts and is then ejected into the path of the smoke before it can exit the stove. Unburned fuel particles in the smoke re-ignite and are almost completely burned, resulting in much higher heat output (efficiency) and far lower emissions....

This was clear to me, but obviously not to everyone else. As HDR confirmed, the secondary burn occurs inside the stove. There isn't really a separate chamber, although in some designs there is a baffle plate that forces the smoke past the secondary burn fresh air tubes.

The key to how this all works is the precise metering of the combustion air. Airflow is actually quite restricted in these designs, so the fire burns slowly. Instead of rushing out the chimney, the smoke lingers inside the stove, where it is reignited by the superheated fresh air coming from the secondary burn ducts. This longer dwell time is what makes more complete combustion possible, and it causes hypnotically beautiful, ethereal flame patterns once it really gets going.

The downside of this efficiency (particularly in small stoves) is that it is often difficult to keep flue temps high enough for a good draft and a clean chimney. I always used double wall connector pipe inside people's homes, and was occasionally accused of using a more expensive kind of pipe just to pad the bill. From time to time, I also had an argument with someone who wanted to put one of those chimney heat extractor monstrosities into the chimney, and was absolutely convinced that he would be wasting firewood without it.

Either myself or my other crew lead would always take a couple dozen digital photos of our installations, in part as protection against the occasional idiot who started modifying things as soon as we left.

My most memorable experience was when I arrived to install a pellet stove in a firefighters house. He marched into the room, announced that his wife wouldn't like it sticking that far out into the room and ordered me to place it closer to the wall. I replied that he, of all people, must understand the need for proper clearances.

He answered "in this house, I'm the fire code!". Coming from a firefighter, I will never forget those words. He refused to back down, so I loaded the stove back into my truck, drove away and mailed him a refund.

Even when you're an expert in the field and you take the time to teach people how something works, some percentage of humanity will always be convinced they know a better way...

 

[Gary68]

when i clean my stove,a large double door kodiak,i dont put any wood in it at night and open it up,air and flue open and it burns itself out by morning,shovel into bucket put outside till garbage day,bag up,put in trash can

as far as fir,proper curing,at least one full year out in the weather
its best to not burn one type of wood but a mix from alder to oak
here in oregon you can get $20 permit to go onto state land and scavenge logging sites so fir is easy to get,well easy to find,back breaking to get