Putting together system

[SternWake]

The Shunt is a precision resistor. The battery monitor measures voltage on each side of this shunt and calculates the amount of current flowing through the shunt.

The battery temp sensor allows the solar controller to adjust voltages, as all battery manufacturers make their float and absorption voltage recommendations at 77F. Temps higher than this require lesser voltages, and temps lower than this require higher voltages. The say to affix the BTS to the negative terminal of the battery, as this is easiest. One could in theory affix this sensor on the battery case with some epoxy and get more precise readings, as the battery terminals present some resistance and will heat up somewhat when passing higher currents. Likely not enough to make much of a difference, but one should not have to stack too many wire connections right on the battery terminals themselves.

The Anderson Powerpole connector is just a much better 12 volt connector than a ciggy plug connector. It can pass upto 45 amps where as the Ciggy plug connectors are only good for 4 to 5 amps before they start heating and slowly failing.

When you have loads passing through a ciggy connector greater than 5 amps, it is wise to use the Anderson powerpoles as they present less resistance, cause less voltage drop, and are much more reliable.

These connectors require some crimping skills, or their special crimping tool. The 30 amp version is pretty simple, but the 45 amp version is more difficult to do properly without the specific tool. The 15/30/45 amp versions all use the same plastic housings and will mate with each other.

YOutube has many videos showing how to assemble these connectors

 

[Canine]

Is there a way with the renogy panels to combine everything down to 1 wire without the combiner box and just the branches you can buy that go with renogy?  I can't remember why but i remember there being 2 options of combining them all down into 1.

Yes. (Assuming they use the MC4 connectors, which I'm pretty sure they are.) Those MC4 Y-connectors and wires are easy peasy to connect and disconnect and they are waterproof. No crimping- plug and play. You can connect up to 600 volts and 20 amps. You will need to run those in series at least to some degree. If you wired them all in parallel, you would overload the MC4 wires with too many amps.

Now to the inverter.  I don't see how it's connected to any 110v ac things.  Are all the items in his load junction DC so he doesnt need it connected there?  I know i'll have a few things 110v ac in my panel box, so will I have to run a wire from it to the 110v ac appliaces?

When you want to connect AC appliances, you plug them in just like you would at home. The inverter will have at least one plug in just like you would find in your house. (I hope this was what you were asking.) You can plug in a power strip to make more plug ins, but be careful of over working your inverter. Easy to do!

Connecting the inverter to the panel box shouldn't be a problem; this would allow you to use the plug-ins already in your trailer. I've seen one person who connected his generator to his household wiring by plugging his generator directly into a plug-in in his garage. This energized his whole house and he could plug anything in anywhere in the house as long as he didn't overload the generator. Was very cool! This guy manually tripped the main breaker to simulate a power outage for me. But if he ever forgot to do that during a real power outage, the electrician working on the broken wire on the power pole outside might get a hell of a jolt.

You do need to connect the inverter to the batteries. Those two wires will be big and keep them as short as possible. You connect them to the batteries at the same point the charge controller is connected. That might sound weird, but that's how it works.

[size=large]I'm too much of a newbie to speak authoritatively, but I am trying to be as accurate as possible. If there are any mistakes, please correct them.[/size]

 

[Oopslala]

Well, I just got the 400w kit delivered. Opened immediately, and got extremely confused.

There is only one male and one female mc4 cable connector. Everything else seems to be there. Maybe I've missed something, but how am I supposed to connect 4 panels with 1 of each cable connector?

Now I just studied the diagram, and it seems i have to buy 4 sets of male/female mc4 connectors? The one they sent shows it going to the charge controller from one panel.

It's also only 10AWG.

If you've read my entire thread, you'll know I'm putting in 600w of renogy panels (sort of unconventional way). So now I'm wondering if I have to buy all of the wiring and can't use any of it that they provided?

If that's the case, what all will I need to buy? Extremely frustrated I didn't get anything I'll be needing with wires and mc4 connectors etc.

blah.

 

[Oopslala]

Okay I think I figured it out now.

The plan will be to run mc4 male/female connectors and connect 2 panels together so I have 3 + and 3 - wires going to the combiner box. I'll also need 2 more of these http://www.amazon.com/RENOGY®-conne...8&qid=1453235690&sr=1-2&keywords=renogy+10awg they are 12awg while the one that can with the kit is 10awg. 10awg isn't purchasable on amazon. Will 12awg be alright for 2 panels ran together? It will go to a combiner box then go to 4awg probably.

What is a good quiality combiner box?

 

[Canine]

I wouldn't use 12 gauge. 10 is good, though. I can't remember the specs, but for me I remember wanting to stay under 12 or 15 feet at 10 gauge.

You don't need to buy Renogy brand wire. It looks like Amazon carries 10 gauge from other companies, but I may not understand what you specifically need.

If you use Y-connectors, I don't see the need for a combiner box. I have Y-connectors and have no need for a combiner box. While I haven't hooked up my setup yet, the guy told me since I was using MC4 connectors, I don't need a combiner box.

 

[Oopslala]

I just looked up some y connectors, those wires don't look thick enough to get it all down to 1 wire to me? If there a way to avoid the combiner box I'm all for it. Can you go more in depth about it? Keep in mind I'll have 600w

 

[Canine]

I just looked up some y connectors, those wires don't look thick enough to get it all down to 1 wire to me?  If there a way to avoid the combiner box I'm all for it.  Can you go more in depth about it?  Keep in mind I'll have 600w

My understanding is you will be making two rows with each row consisting of three panels.

Each row will be connected in series, so you will not need extra cables for those because you will be plugging in the positive cable of panel #1 to the negative cable of panel #2. Then take the positive cable from panel #2 and plug that into the negative cable of panel #3. Panel #1 has a loose negative lead and panel #3 has a loose positive lead. (Or you could keep going and plug in the positive lead of panel #3 to the negative lead of panel #4 and so on until all six panels are connected in this manner.)

You now have three panels connected together. You have in effect created one 300 watt panel. This new "panel" you have created has one positive lead and one negative lead. (If you connected all six panels like in the above paragraph, you will have "one" 600 watt panel.)

Do the same for the other 3 panels.

Now you have in effect two panels with a total of two loose positive leads and two loose negative leads.

Purchase two MC4 Y-connectors. They are also called branch connectors and may go by other names.

Now you will connect those two rows in parallel. Grab both positive leads and plug them into a Y-connector; you are now down to one positive connection. Grab both negative leads and plug them into a Y-connector; you are now down to one negative connection. (If you did all six panels together, you won't need Y-connectors and will already have one positive lead and one negative lead.)

Purchase an adaptor kit. This kit is wire much like your 10AWG wires coming off the panels. There will be two wires- one male and one female for the positive and negative leads. One end of each wire has the insulation stripped off and is bare. The wires can be a few inches long to several feet long depending on your needs.

Plug in one wire from that adapter kit into the end of one of the Y-connectors. Plug in the other wire from the adapter kit into the other end of the Y-connector. You now have one negative cable with a bare end and one positive cable with a bare end.

Voila! No connector box.

Then you connect the bare ends of those wires to the corresponding positive and negative points on your charge controller. Here is where you need to pay attention. Connecting the wires backwards would be easy to do. Touching the bare wires together would be easy to do. Actually, you may want to connect the bare ends to the controller first before plugging in them into the solar panel wires. Do not put your tongue on the ends of the wires on a dare. Don't ask me how I know that. If I ever meet you, hopefully I won't be talking with a lisp.

This is how I understand it, anyway. I have two panels of 285 watts each and will be connecting them in parallel and into the charge controller just like I described to you.

Fuses are a necessity, but I don't know how that works with MC4 cables; still need to learn that part.

Cover your panels so they aren't make electricity. This will help prevent damage should the bare wires touch; it can also help prevent the sudden jolt that can happen when connecting them. There is an order in which to connect all that stuff. I can't remember if the panels are last or first-my understanding is that this is very important.

I'm still learning, too, so be sure. Once a guy/gal breaks it down to one negative or positive wire at a time, it is actually easy. When you are done, you will see a mess of wire and say, "What the heck is this mess?!"

 

[Oopslala]

Already that helped a lot. Now one more concern.

If I connect all 6 panels to make 1 600w panel, can the wires in each panel handle that much wattage? The wires on the panels are 12awg if i recall correctly (put them back in boxes, too lazy to get out).

If those wires are fine, then how will a 10 gauge wire be big enough for 600w of power. The smallest I can find with mc4 is 8awg, which still is too small according to the awg chart i found online. I was hoping to use 4 gauge wire into the charge controller in case I add 2 more panels later on.

That explanation definitely helped me understand but still left me confused because of the small wires used.

 

[29chico]

Already that helped a lot.  Now one more concern.

If I connect all 6 panels to make 1 600w panel, can the wires in each panel handle that much wattage?  The wires on the panels are 12awg if i recall correctly (put them back in boxes, too lazy to get out).

If those wires are fine, then how will a 10 gauge wire be big enough for 600w of power.  The smallest I can find with mc4 is 8awg, which still is too small according to the awg chart i found online.  I was hoping to use 4 gauge wire into the charge controller in case I add 2 more panels later on.

That explanation definitely helped me understand but still left me confused because of the small wires used.

If you mean wire all 6 of the panels in series, I would not do that.  The Tristar controller is rated at a max of 150v open circuit.  In series you would have 135voc.  On a cold sunny day at high elevation your voc could possibly go over the 150voc limit for the controller and damage it.  No extra capacity for a couple more panels later.

I would do two series strings of 3 panels each with your equipment.  You could simply wire one more panel into each string w/o getting near the 150v limit.  For a three panel string with your panels your peak power voltage would be 56.7v & 75.6v for a 4 panel string.  Those are high enough voltages that your voltage drop from your panel array to the controller will be much less than if you were wiring all of the panels in parallel.  It is also high enough voltage to be dangerous.  Please make sure that the panels are out of the sun when making connections.

 

[Canine]

If you go from 12 gauge to 10 gauge, you are getting a bigger diameter wire. 8 gauge is bigger yet. 4 is bigger. 0 is bigger. 00 or 2/0 is bigger. 000 or 3/0 is a monster.

Don't go by watts to determine the size of wire needed. You need to look at amps instead. It takes only a few amps to fry a wire, but that same wire can handle vast amounts more voltage. With the six 100 watt panels you have connected all in series, you would have a bit less than 114 volts at 5.3 amps, which is well within the capability of a 15 foot length of 12 gauge wire. If you went with 8 AWG, you could go out to 55+ feet.

If you wanted to connect all 6 panels in parallel with 12 guage, you would burn the wire in half long before you got to the 6th panel; with a 10 foot length of wire, you would need a minimum of 6 AWG. 8 gauge would probably work, but it is borderline.

Length of wire is extremely important, too. If you are under 15 feet, that helps. If you can stay under 10 feet, then all the better; that 5 feet of difference in length makes a big difference when dealing with the low voltages/high amps us vandwellers deal often with. 10 gauge at 10 feet should give you all you need even if you add more panels. I'm going with 10 AWG with the idea of giving myself some leeway should I install 200 to 300 additional watts of solar. I also want some leeway if the wire is damaged to some small degree. A bit of a kink or crush or if the insulation is slightly worn, I'm still within safe limits. I was going to go 8 AWG, but $$$.

Thick wire is expensive and harder to work with, so if you can keep it short, you will save money.

Some people have long RV's or trailers with wiring can be longer than 30 feet. When you have lots of power, keeping that voltage up makes transferring the electricity more efficient and allows for smaller wire. But for your short distances, that is a much smaller issue.

http://www.solar-electric.com/wire-loss-tables.html

You want your charge controller close to your battery bank. The wires between the controller and the battery bank will need to be some fatties. If you can go bigger, then go for it. It looks like going from the charge controller to the batteries would take only 8 AWG if you are less than 2 feet away, but I am going with 4 AWG if it will fit. Yes, it is a lot more, but since the lengths are so short, the cost isn't that bad. Then if there is a mistake in the crimp or anything, I have some leeway. Same with your inverter; keep it close to your battery bank and make those wires nice and fat.

Keep in mind that if you wire all of your panels in series and the bottom (short end) of one panel is shaded, you loose all power. One large gull that just ate some spoiled chimichangas and dropped a big load on one part of one panel can do your electricity in until you clean it. If you are at all concerned about shading, I strongly recommend using at least one bypass diode between the panels so that you will have at least some solar coming in should one panel be partially shaded. You could accomplish the same thing by wiring two rows of 3 panels in parallel.

 

[Oopslala]

I think I finally understand what you guys mean. Drew a diagram of it to understand it and that did the trick alone with your wise words.

So I'll have 3 panels wired in series together, then the other 3 wired in series together with a set of branch connectors (one for + one for -). When I connect them to the branch connectors, it will remain at 56.7v and 5.29a correct, even though its 2 series connecting into 1 branch connector?

I had the big concern with the gauge wire because I was thinking parallel, so low volt high amps which meant i needed 4gauge wire. Series makes this much easier (and cheaper). Renegy wire calculator recommended 16 gauge wire for the 75.6v(4 panel series). 10 gauge should not be a problem at all into the charge controller.

Just read your most recent canine. I think instead of 2 series of 4, I'll do 3 (or 4) series of 2 panels each and have them all meet at 1 branch connector set that has 1m/4f and vice versa

Just to make sure I'm understanding it all correctly, finally, can you confirm it for me?

 

[Oopslala]

Alright time to elaborate on 3-4 series of panels connecting into 1 y connector.

So I'll have all 2 panels wired in series 3 times. From there, the 3 + wires not connected will go to a mc4 connector with 3F/1M. The 3 - wires not connected will go to the other mc4 connector with 3M/1F. From there, I'll have 1 + and 1 - wire running through the roof and into the charge controller.

All wires will be 10awg above the charge controller. With it being 2 panels in series multiple times it will result in 5.29 amps and 37.8 volts.

Is all of that correct?

 

[29chico]

I think I finally understand what you guys mean.  Drew a diagram of it to understand it and that did the trick alone with your wise words.

So I'll have 3 panels wired in series together, then the other 3 wired in series together with a set of branch connectors (one for + one for -). When I connect them to the branch connectors, it will remain at 56.7v and 5.29a correct, even though its 2 series connecting into 1 branch connector?

I had the big concern with the gauge wire because I was thinking parallel, so low volt high amps which meant i needed 4gauge wire.  Series makes this much easier (and cheaper).  Renegy wire calculator recommended 16 gauge wire for the 75.6v(4 panel series).  10 gauge should not be a problem at all into the charge controller.

Just read your most recent canine.  I think instead of 2 series of 4, I'll do 3 (or 4) series of 2 panels each and have them all meet at 1 branch connector set that has 1m/4f and vice versa

Just to make sure I'm understanding it all correctly, finally, can you confirm it for me?

You are on the right track.

If it were me, I would run 10g wires minimum for each series string down to near the controller.  This would allow you to use a clamp on DC ammeter to check the output of each string separately.  Then tie the two positive wires together at the controller.  Since the controller can take #2 wire there is a good chance that you could connect both wires to the same lug.

Being able to compare the output of both strings would be a plus.  It would be easy to tell if one of your panels had received a big seagull splat and needed cleaning as that string would have reduced output.  Also, since there would be multiple connections on each string, over time a connector could develop some corrosion and the output of that series string would decrease.

 

[Canine]

29chico. Good idea. Would make diagnosing much easier! With a couple simple looks, one could quickly each array.

Oopslala, I was unaware of 3F/1M and 3M/1F connectors (or even 4 to 1). If you can do that, that would be the way to go. If you can't, it isn't a big deal. Just keep connecting Y-connectors until you get down to one negative wire and one positive wire. Having a few Y-connectors connected directly to other Y-connectors might look messy, but it is fine.

With 3 rows of 2 panels each you will have a total of 37.8 volts and 15.87 amps. When connecting two in a series, voltage goes up and amps stay the same. When connecting in parallel, voltage stays the same and amps goes up. With two panels in series that is 37.8 volts with 5.29 amps. When you start connecting those in parallel, the voltage stays the same, but the amps increase: 5.29 amps * 3 = 15.87 amps.

With two rows of three panels each, you would have 56.7 volts and 10.58 amps. This is 6 panels total.

With 8 panels total and two panels in series four times then connect those four rows in parallel you would get: 37.8 volts and 21.16 amps. With four panels in series and both of those rows in parallel you would have: 75.6 volts and 10.58 amps.

 

[Oopslala]

Alright I've drawn up a diagram of the entire system, with a few things missing and im sure some mistakes. I used FALCON's diagram to help with mine a lot. I'll put it in words what I plan on doing here then provide a photo of the diagram for some constructive criticism.

As previously discussed, I'll have 6 100 renogy panels wired in groups of 2 in series all meeting together at a 3F,1F and 3F,1M mc4 connector. There will be a fuse and disconnect switch right after the mc4 connector on the + side. From there both wires will go around and plug into my morningstar mppt tristar 60a charge controller. All wires up to this point will be 10awg.

From the charge controller, the wire going to the battery + will be run through a fuse, positive bus then a disconnect switch and into the + terminal on the battery. The RTS wires will both run through the neg terminal on the battery, through the shunt, and into the - bus. The positive sensor wire will run into the + bus, while the negative wires will run to the - bus. Both solar + and - will be plugged in from the panels.

The battery meter B1 will be connected into the + bus, G2 and G1 will both be connected on one side of the shunt while the SIG wire will be connected onto the other wire. Those wires will likely be 16 gauge.

The 500 amp shunt will be connected to the battery meter, - bus, and - battery terminal.

The + end of the morningstar 300w pure sine inverter will be connected to the + terminal on the battery with 2awg wire, going through a fuse and disconnect switch from the battery before reaching thing inverter. From there, there will be a + 2gauge wire run to the 110ac V breakers in the panel box that require it. The - wire on the inverter will run to the - bus.

The + bus will have a direct 2awg wire run into the panel box and through all the breakers that require 12dc V. All other wires from + bus have already been mentioned above.

The battery bank which will consist of 4 duracell GC2 6v batteries will be wired in series. Connecting to the shunt, inverter and + battery wire from the charge controller.

I haven't looked at the panel box in my camper, so I'm not exactly sure how all the wiring will work going into that. I'm assuming I'll have something similar to the - bus bar that connects all the - to the other - bus bar that has everything - on it, or is grounded. If that's the case, i'll run a wire from the other -bus bar to the panel wherever the ground is.

I'm not exactly sure where the ground will be. Everything I'm missing or did wrong, please inform me and tell me how to fix it. Here's the link: https://cowcap.net/i/e7a2cc96ba.png

Thanks for the help

 

[Canine]

The battery bank which will consist of 4 duracell GC2 6v batteries will be wired in series.  Connecting to the shunt, inverter and + battery wire from the charge controller.

Nice. It sounds good so far. I need to get me a disconnect switch or two as well.

If you connect all four 6 bolt batteries in series, you will have a 24 volt bank. Is that what you want? 12 or 24 is fine, but want to make sure that is what you want. If you want a 12 volt bank, you will need to do a series/parallel connection.

 

[Oopslala]

I meant doing 2 sets in series then paralleling them like I did with the panels. How does everything look that I've listed?

Also, what size fuses should I use between each fuse spot? Between the charge controller and batteries, between the inverter and battery, between the battery meter and + bus, and between the panels (after the mc4 connector) and the charge controller.

I have seen the big red disconnect switches in a lot of videos on youtube but can't find it on amazon. Anyone have a link to that? It's a big red circle with ON/OFF that you turn the switches to.

 

[Canine]

I don't know about the fuses; still need to look that one up. I want to use circuit breakers for mine so when I need to disconnect something, I just flip a switch instead of pulling fuse. If you go with a circuit breaker, you need one for DC current.

I can't see any errors so far.

 

[SternWake]

Every electrical connection presents some degree of voltage dropping electrical resistance, so one should attempt to minimize their numbers, if possible.

One can  protect and promote better electrical conductivity inside mc4 connectors/any connector with this product:
http://www.amazon.com/DeoxIT®-Shiel...3340666&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=deoxit+shield

The entire DeOxit line of chemicals are magic electrical juice, in my opinion.



The big red switch you seek, is this it?

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst..._UL160_SR154,160_&refRID=03CW40QJBKSME6NX58A1

The Shunt goes on the (-) only.  

There is a battery side of the shunt, and a load/source side of the shunt.  From the battery side of the shunt goes a wire to the battery(-).  No other wire should goto the battery (-) or it will not properly be able to count/measure the current.

To the load/source side of the shunt goes the negative buss bar and all loads and sources(-)

Proper wire terminations are required.  You can't just squish a ring terminal and a wire in a vice or crush it with a hammer Doing so might yield an acceptable looking mechanical connection but will be a poor electrical connection prone to corrosion and failure.

The methods in the following link are overkill for most rv systems, but it is 'proper'
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination

Large battery cables:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables

You can have large battery cables custom made for not much more than material price from here:
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables

It is easier and ultimately cheaper to do things right the first time, than have to troubleshoot them later and come back and do them right the second time.  If a large cable pulls out of its improper crimp, you could burn down the whole RV.

 

[Oopslala]

Thanks stern. I've drawn up a diagram for the batteries only, and made a list of larger wires I'll order from genuinedealz. Below will be everything.

Here's the diagram: https://cowcap.net/i/97b7e1cb92.png

Here's the list of all the wires I'll but and where they will be going.

Two 1 foot 1AWG red wire, with red heat shrink on one end and black on the other. Positive straight top post terminal on one end, and a negative straight top post terminal on the other end. This will be the 2 wires connecting the batteries into 2 groups of 2 6v batteries in series.

1 foot 1AWG red wire, with red heat shrink on both end. There will be positive straight top post terminals on both ends. This wire will connect the remaining positive posts to link the 2 series into parallel.

1 foot 1AWG black wire, with black heat shrink on both ends. There will be negative straight top post terminals on both ends. This wire will connect the 2 remaning negative posts to link the 2 series groups into parallel.

2 foot 1awg red wire, with red heat shrink on both sides. Heavy wall tinned lug 1/2 bolt on one side, with nothing on the other end to connect into the inverter. This wire will likely be too long, but I will be putting a fuse and disconnect switch in the middle anyways, so I can trim down excess wire if needed.

3 foot 2AWG red wire, with red heat shrink. Heavy wall tinned lug 1/2 bolt on one side, with nothing on the other end. This will connect the charge controller to the battery bank. This wire will also have a fuse and disconnect switch in the middle. It will also have a + bus, so excess wire will be trimmed off.

3 foot 1AWG red wire, with red heat shrink. Nothing on either end, this will run form the inverter into the panel box. (I'm not sure if that'll need a fuse).

2 foot 2 AWG black wire, black heat shrink. Heavy wall tinned 1/4 lug bolt. This will connect the charge controller to the neg bus.

4 foot 4AWG red wire with no attachments. This will run from the pos bus to the panel box. They do not offer 1/8th option so I'll have to do that one myself.

For all of the 1AWG wiring, would that be alright at 2 AWG or should I keep it at 1?

If you see anything missing or wrong, as always please chime in!