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I didn't plan on getting 2 more panels at the time of that post, now the 2 larger panels with the morningstar would make a lot more sense for me to consider.

One thing that worries me about those panels though, is the cost of shipping on them as I've read that it can be quite expensive to get panels shipped. Do you have any idea what those panels cost shipped?
 
Oopslala said:
I didn't plan on getting 2 more panels at the time of that post, now the 2 larger panels with the morningstar would make a lot more sense for me to consider.  

One thing that worries me about those panels though, is the cost of shipping on them as I've read that it can be quite expensive to get panels shipped.  Do you have any idea what those panels cost shipped?

I would start by following that cedgreentech link in post #21 and find out where their closest branch is and contact them.  They have a lot of branches.

I do not know what it would cost to ship those panels. 

What is sweet is that the Morningstar Tristar MPPT has an Ethernet connection for programming from a PC.  My guess is that for starters the factory supplied flooded deep cycle setting will be way better than most.

Also, because it is a high quality current limiting device one can input an unlimited amount of amps to it as long as 150voc (volts open circuit) is not exceeded and it will output a max of 800w into a 12v bank or 1600w into a 24v bank.
 
Oopslala said:
After much thought and debit I decided 2 more panels would still be within my budget so I went in on them.  Bought a buddy heater as well.

Setup will consist of 600watts of renogy with 4 gc2 batteries for the time being.

Once the panels get here I'll lay them out and get an actually visual of everything that must be done.  I'm a very visual learner, the the rest of the goodies will be purchased.  

Expect more posts so, the panels arrive the 19th!

Sounds very good!
Bob
 
If you go with a 12 volt battery bank and two or three panels at a time wired in series, you will be able to take better much advantage of low light conditions. That is a big plus IMO.

Inverters are made to connect to 12 or 24 volt; just make sure you get the right one. You can then have 110 volt.

To get 12 volt from a 24 volt battery bank, you would need a step down transformer Like 29chico said. They are very efficient, but that is one more item you need.  Strictly going by the stated max watts pv input rating, max amps rating, and the max volt rating of the 40 amp MPPT controller, no matter how you wire it, you will need a transformer, or another controller, or ditch the smaller one and get a really big controller.

If you wire them all in series, it won't work. The controller can handle a max of 100 volts (which is good), but 6 panels wired in series is 117.48 volts (17.8 volts Vmp * 6 panels * 110% leeway) which is too much.

If you wire them all in parallel, it won't work. The controller can handle 40 amps (which is good), but if you wired all 6 parallel, you would get 42.15 amps (5.62 amp Imp * 6 panels * 125% leeway) which is too much.

If you do a combination of series and parallel, it would work with a 24 volt battery bank, but not a 12 volt bank. If you wired two strings of three panels each you would get 58.74 volts Vmp which is well within the max 100 volts. Then if you wired those two strings parallel, you would get 16.86 amps Imp which is well within the 40 amp rating.

You could also go with 2 panels in series and the 3 strings wired in parallel on a 24 volt bank, but not on a 12 volt bank with only one controller.

You could go with 4 panels in series then 2 panels in series, but then you would need a separate, smaller controller for the small 2 panel array.

The only thing holding you back from using a 12 volt bank with this series/parallel setup is the 400 watt maximum input pv rating. Since the 24 volt rating is good for 800 watts worth of panels, then the 600 watts of panels you have would work for a 24 volt bank. But now you need to buy a transformer.

If you went with two controllers and no transformer wired to a 12 volt battery bank and one controller failed, you would still get solar from the remaining 3 panels. This redundancy is nice to have. Since there is no transformer to fail, you would always be able to power your 12 volt lighting and appliances as long as your batteries have juice. This is my favorite option.

If you went with one controller and one transformer on a 24 volt bank and the one controller failed, you wouldn't be getting any solar from any of the 6 panels. If the transformer failed, you would lose all of your 12 volt DC lighting and appliances. This is my least favorite option.

I'm not sure that the rating of 400 watts maximum for a 12 volt battery bank is a real consideration. As long as the Vmp and the Imp is good, that may be all you need. I would call Renogy and see if the max pv input of 400 watts at 12 volts is something to seriously consider. Unless someone here knows the answer.

Unless you have long lengths of wire (about 20 to 30 feet and more), 12 volt really is ideal. 12 volt is very suitable for short distances of wire. If you can stay less than 12 feet (or close to it), your losses from resistance minimal.

All of those 100 watt panels is going to take a lot of wiring and a lot of mounting. Much easier to wire and mount two large 300+ watt panels.

I just purchased two 60 cell, 285 watt solar panels. No UPS here.- they have to be palletized and freighted in on a semi truck. That is about $150 shipping fee. You have to pick them up at a terminal. Freight is getting more and more expensive. At least you are getting a much, much better delivery service.

You may also have to pay a "break pallet" fee. When you order two panels, if each pallet has 20 solar panels on it, and they need to open one up to get those two panels out, they charge you for that. If they are ethical and have already charged someone that fee, they may wave that fee. Don't hold your breath.
 
Personally, I don't recommend a 24 volt bank, you exclude way too many great 12 volt items.

I didn't remember that you bought in separate purchases, will the controller you bought handle 600 watts at 12 volt. If not you have two choices;

1) Replace them with a high-end controller that can handle to watts and do a better job of charging the batteries. Can you return the controller.
2) Add a second, cheap controller and set up two separate banks.

I think either one is a good choice but obviously #2 is cheaper. But consider this, a better controller will let you set the absorption voltage and time which in the long run will save you so much on batteries that it is a bargain.
Bob
 
The break pallet fee is about $100. The two I purchased did not have a break pallet fee. You could negotiate a smaller fee or have them throw in some MC4 wires and Y connectors or some such thing.
 
Thanks for all of the responses, it's helping me a lot.

I'm currently trying to contact amazon (have to love the weekend-wait for responses) to see if I can send the mppt charge controller from renogy back without having to send the entire kit back. If they'll allow me to do that, then it'll become a lot easier.

I'm going to stick with renogy 100w panels regardless, the process will just be a lot more drawn out if they won't allow me to send the charger alone back.

I'll be going with the http://www.amazon.com/Morningstar-T...d=1452955515&sr=8-4&keywords=morningstar+mppt

I've also decided it's not worth it to me to use the microwave and sacrifice lots energy wasted constantly to use a microwave a couple times a day if that. Since I'm in a camper (from my understanding) for me to use all of the 110v ac outlets the inverter will have to be running at all times. Upon browsing some other posts i stumbled onto a link to handbobs solar (which i had forgotten about for quite a while). From there i read his reviews on inverters, which has made me lean towards this: http://www.amazon.com/Morningstar-S...2955708&sr=8-1&keywords=morningstar+pure+sine

I'm spending a lot more on this system than i had initially anticipated, but it will make me my money back and then some within a year from saved costs. Camping at sites with shore power would be ridiculous amounts of money long term, as well as having to drive to the exact location instead of just pulling off or going deep into the woods.

As of now (which is likely to change like it has like 10 times) this is what I'll go with

600w of renogy solar
4 gc2 batteries (the duracell ones for $110)
morningstar mppt 60a
morningstar 300w pure sine inverter

i think it's time to start checking out diagrams and figuring out what else I'll need.

For all of my 12v DC appliances that I'll have, potentially a fridge, will i be able to hook that directly up to my battery bank?
 
I always return with extra thoughts just a few minutes too late to edit -.-

A thought on the pure sine inverter I'm getting currently. I know I'll only be able to run the 'small' stuff. But that's all I'll really have in the camper, apart from the stock fridge(which i plan on just using as storage since it'll use a lot of power even when on propane). Everything else will be small, like phone charger, laptop, water pump, tablet, these kinds of things.

Once I get on the road for a while and figure everything out, I may upgrade. My main reason not to have a 2000-3000w inverter is the fact that it uses so much energy that isn't actually benefiting any devices apart from running the inverter. The only way I could see myself getting a bigger inverter would be if I wired it so I will only use it for that 2 minutes i use the microwave, or a mini shop vac or something, then turn it off and rely back on the 300w inverter for everything else. At least, that is possible to be done from my understanding.
 
Oopslala said:
For all of my 12v DC appliances that I'll have, potentially a fridge, will i be able to hook that directly up to my battery bank?

What you should do is wire a fuse block, like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...45&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+sea+marine+fuse+block

to your battery bank and wire all your 12 volt loads (Except the Inverter, which should be wired directly to the battery through it's own heavy fuse) to this fuse block.

Remember the Electrical Engineers First Rule of Thumb:  Any unfused circuit is a fire waiting to happen.

Also, put an off-on switch in the hot wire going to the fuse block.  You don't want any of your loads trying to run when you are equalizing your batteries - the voltage is higher than your fridge and other items can safely handle.

Regards
John
 
Oopslala said:
I always return with extra thoughts just a few minutes too late to edit -.-

A thought on the pure sine inverter I'm getting currently.  I know I'll only be able to run the 'small' stuff.  But that's all I'll really have in the camper, apart from the stock fridge(which i plan on just using as storage since it'll use a lot of power even when on propane).  Everything else will be small, like phone charger, laptop, water pump, tablet, these kinds of things.

Once I get on the road for a while and figure everything out, I may upgrade.  My main reason not to have a 2000-3000w inverter is the fact that it uses so much energy that isn't actually benefiting any devices apart from running the inverter.  The only way I could see myself getting a bigger inverter would be if I wired it so I will only use it for that 2 minutes i use the microwave, or a mini shop vac or something, then turn it off and rely back on the 300w inverter for everything else.  At least, that is possible to be done from my understanding.

Your propane fridge might not use a lot of 12v power for the control system when running on propane.  You could put an ammeter on it and find out.  Some of those RV fridges can switch on a 12v heating element as a substitute for the heat from propane.  If so, disconnecting that 12v heating element is a good idea to prevent drawing down your batt bank really fast.  The 110v AC heating element commonly found in that kind of RV fridge is good for when shore power is available as it will save propane.  If you decide to use the stock fridge after all, I would suggest that you consider putting in a switch to prevent the fridge from trying to pull AC power from the inverter.

Engel makes replacement front loading 12v compressor based refrigerator/freezers for RV's.  Possibly, they make one that can go where your existing fridge is.  Link:http://www.engelcoolers.com/acdc/fridge-freezers/front-opening

I have an eight year old 12v/110v AC Engel MT-35 top loading fridge freezer that is shaped like an ice chest.  Great unit, never a problem, very low power draw and quiet.

The water pump, if you are talking about the stock one in your camper, is probably 12v.

The Morningstar SureSine-300 Inverter is a nice unit.
 
While that is a great inverter, it's no-load draw is still .45 amps per hour. If you leave it on 24 hours a day it'll still draw about 12 amps without anything plugged into it.
Bob
 
akrvbob said:
While that is a great inverter, it's no-load draw is still .45 amps per hour. If you leave it on 24 hours a day it'll still draw about 12 amps without anything plugged into it.
Bob

Sorry Bob but it looks like you missed a decimal point.   :blush:

Low Self-Consumption – The SureSine consumes 450mA
while powering loads. During no load conditions, solar
energy is not wasted because the SureSine automatically
powers down to stand-by mode, reducing self-consumption
to one tenth of operating consumption.  
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SureSineENG_R2_1_08.pdf

It also has - Remote On/Off – Improves safety by making it easy to
install the SureSine in an inaccessible location or enclosure.
Reduces system cost by avoiding the need to add an AC
safety disconnect to the system.
 
Oopslala said:
I didn't plan on getting 2 more panels at the time of that post, now the 2 larger panels with the morningstar would make a lot more sense for me to consider.  

One thing that worries me about those panels though, is the cost of shipping on them as I've read that it can be quite expensive to get panels shipped.  Do you have any idea what those panels cost shipped?

Amazon ships Renogy panels free.
 
I think I've got enough of the puzzle solved to start working on a diagram to get a picture of exactly what my system is going to be looking like.

The first diagram I make is going to have a lot of empty spots that I'll need help determining what I need to use (combiner box/certain sized wire/fuses and that such of thing).

Chico, I need to measure the hole in my camper that has the current fridge and go from there. I know I want to get one, I'm leaning towards the whynter 65q that you can get at home depot if that will fit.

Canine, I did consider that on initially but when i looked further into it i saw that it has a maximum of 600w input for a 12v bank. If I enjoy this life and continue to do it for the future years, I'll likely upgrade one more time to a 6 battery bank with 800w of panels, which will require me to have the 60a charge controller from morningstar.

Bob, I know that there will be some amps wasted each day with that inverter, but from what i've looked at, the 1000-3000w inverters all waste a greater number of amps to run. At this point, the only appliace I have that would require a 2000w or bigger inverter is the microwave. The only thing I use the one in my house for is for soup, which can be done in a pot on the stovetop. Assuming I stick to this way of living for a few years, I'll likely upgrade the inverter when I upgrade the panels and battery bank.

ccbreder, I'm aware the renogy panels are free to ship, I was referring to the 285w mono SolarWorld panels that chico mentioned for me to take a look at.

I'm going to get to work on making a diagram. Have any of you ever used a program to help make it? The only thing I can think of is photoshop or paint. I don't want to hand draw it and have to make updates constantly.
 
Oopslala:

Before you start your electrical system diagram you might want to go to the "electric/generators" section and read the thread about "electric system diagram comments wanted" (or something like that). A very good basic electrical system layout which was critiqued right here by all the great experts who are really experienced. It's on page 19 abt 2/3 of the page down.

Hope this helps.
 
speedhighway46 said:
Oopslala:

Before you start your electrical system diagram you might want to go to the "electric/generators" section and read the thread about "electric system diagram comments wanted" (or something like that). A very good basic electrical system layout which was critiqued right here by all the great experts who are really experienced. It's on page 19 abt 2/3 of the page down.

Hope this helps.

Can you provide a link? I can't seem to find anything that has that sort of title with 19 pages.

I've already found a couple diagrams I'm going to use as a guide, but obviously there will be the differences as well.  More/less panels which require different fuses and wire and all the jazz.
 
VJG1977 said:
Sorry Bob but it looks like you missed a decimal point.   :blush:

Low Self-Consumption – The SureSine consumes 450mA
while powering loads. During no load conditions, solar
energy is not wasted because the SureSine automatically
powers down to stand-by mode, reducing self-consumption
to one tenth of operating consumption.  
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SureSineENG_R2_1_08.pdf
You're right, I just looked at the spec sheet and stopped at no-load draw and didn't see the rest. That's amazing for a pure sine inverter, they are usually high draw because they do more work so to get it down that low is exceptional.

I just avoid using the inverter as much as possible and when I do have to use it I turn it off and when it's done turn it off. 
Bob
 
Got good news, Amazon will allow me to send the charge controller back and keep everything else in the kit. That makes things much easier.

Still working on the diagram, should have it done within a couple of days. I have jury duty all week so if I don't get picked that's 4 days of free time.
 
Alright, I've been studying FALCON's diagram for a while (thank you speedhighway46 for bumping it for me to see), and before I draw my diagram, I'll use his first to ask questions about specific things to help with me building/making diagram.

I can't seem to figure out to get pictures posted correctly so I'll just post the link to the image and let you guys open that up:



I'll start from the top and work my way down. Is there a way with the renogy panels to combine everything down to 1 wire without the combiner box and just the branches you can buy that go with renogy? I can't remember why but i remember there being 2 options of combining them all down into 1.

I'll work my way from each controller/meter etc and ask questions throughout.

First the charge controller.

I understand everything for input, but the output is where I get a little (lot) lost. There's so much going out of it. Common negative, goes to the bus bar, which is grounded to the chasis. The rem temp(why is there 2 wires into 1 coming out of the controller. What does rem. temp stand for?) runs to the negative battery terminal to the shunt and into the neg bus. Why does it have to go through the shunt, and what is the purpose of the shunt?

The sense (which im guessing is the battery temperature compensation feature of the controller?). The neg runs to the neg bus bar. The positive runs to what I'm assuming is a pos bus bar? If so, why doesn't it run directly to the battery so it can have temp compensation? Does it automatically do it from that pos bus?

And then the battery+. Hey I actually understand why that goes to the positive battery terminal! One down 100 to go...

Now I'll get to the Battery meter. This one is completely confusing me since it isn't connected to anything but the shunt (and somehow the load junction). What does B1 G2 G1 and S/G stand for, and why are they all connected into the shunt?

Next, we have the load junction. This one I think I understand. I'm assuming he has a van not a camper. So the load junction will be the equivalent to my panel box with all the breakers inside of it. My breakers will act as the fuses. All of the neg ends of the appliances are connected to what I'm assuming is another neg bus, which runs to the other neg bus to be grounded to the chasis so there is only 1 ground point?

Now to the inverter. I don't see how it's connected to any 110v ac things. Are all the items in his load junction DC so he doesnt need it connected there? I know i'll have a few things 110v ac in my panel box, so will I have to run a wire from it to the 110v ac appliaces?

One more question then I'm done. what is the purpose of anderson powerpole connecter?
 
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