Putting together system

[Canine]

Whew!All this to hook 6 panels to 4 batteries.

 

[Oopslala]

If you have any suggestions to make this cheaper or easier, I'm all ears. I'm all for constructive criticism as long as it helps me get to the end goal.

I want to get it right the first time, and understand everything I'm doing and how to fix potential problems myself, rather than pay some one else to do it all (and most likely do it wrong).

As you can tell, I'm new to all this, so I have a lot to learn.

 

[ccbreder]

If you want to look at any marine parts, stop into a West Marine store.

""The Shunt goes on the (-) only.
"There is a battery side of the shunt, and a load/source side of the shunt. From the battery side of the shunt goes a wire to the battery(-). No other wire "should goto the battery (-) or it will not properly be able to count/measure the current.""

I may have missed someones post but here I go anyway. You asked about the temp senser. It is not a part of the 12 volt current. It looks a bit like a phone cord with a ring terminal. It connects as the last wire on the Negative terminal of your battery. It must be the negative battery. It checks the battery temperature to help with charge regulation. Someplace previous posts I directed to Maine Marine for information. http://www.marinehowto.com/

 

[Canine]

:blush:
Forgive my ignorance- what is a panel box?

 

[Canine]

OK .suggestions.Put 3 panels together in parallel.That means twist the positive wires together,twist the negative wires together on three panels.Place the white wire of your romex with the negative wires from your panel.Coat the wires with Al-Ox and put a large wirenut on the wires.Place the positive wires from your panels with the black wire of the romex.apply the Al-Ox and the wirenut.Coat both wirenuts and wire ends with liquid tape or a good silicone caulk.Connect 2 of the batteries in series. This means connect one negative post to one positive post on two batteries.Do the same with the other two batteries.Now,connect the batteries together positive to positive and negative to negative.Mount your charge controller close to your batteries.VERY IMPORTANT,hook the batteries to the controller first.Follow the instructions to hook up the controller.When hooking up your batteries to the controller,hook the black wire to the positive post of one battery group,then hook the white wire to the negative post on the other battery group.In other words,hook them up catty corner.This will help keep the batteries balanced.Do the same when hooking up your inverter.Now,go to your controller and hook it up with the wire from the panels.Black to positive and white to negative.Hook up your inverter and you are done.If your inverter doesn't have a built in circuit breaker,you will want to place a breaker or fuse on the positive wire between the batteries and the inverter.Hope this helps.

 

[Canine]

I wouldn't bother with a shunt.You can buy a clamp on amp meter cheap enough and use it for lots of other things also.

 

[ccbreder]

The shunt is for battery monitor.

 

[Oopslala]

The panel box is just what the breakers will be held in. That's what I've learned it to be called, at least.

I've done some digging around in the wiring of my camper today then read the manual. All of the 12v appliances have fuses inside the inverter that is already in the system. I'm not sure if I'll be able to run a 12v wire off of the + bus and go into the converter and hook it up to those 12v fuses already established, or if i'll have to set up another fuse block. If that's the case, I don't know how I'll be able to leave wires hooked up to the converter and also a separate fuse block.

Would it just be a better idea to pull the wires out of the converter and put them into a fuse block, then put them back into the converter when I'm on shore power? I'll only be on shore power 1-2 months maximum a year (sugar beet harvest and possible christmas tree farms, I'm not sure exactly how those work yet.)

 

[Canine]

I thought the panel box that holds the breakers in your camper were for 110 volt AC for when you plugged into shore power. Is that panel box for AC or DC wiring? If you can plug in household items like a hair dryer, then it is AC.

 

[Canine]

Man,you are really trying to complicate this.Forget your converter.That's for charging batteries and using 12 v lites,etc off shore power.Run wires from the charge controller to the batteries.If you want 120v when you are not on shore power,hook up an inverter to your batteries.

 

[Oopslala]

The panel box is only AC.

I'm not really trying to complicate anything, I'm trying to understand everything and find the best possible why to do it. Hence all the questions for every detail.

I'm aware the converter is for charging the batteries.

According to my fifth wheel manual, the fuse panel is inside of the converter. All of those wires run to everything requiring 12v. To my knowledge, and according to the manual, this is the only wiring I have that runs to everything requiring 12v. How exactly would I "run wires from the charge controller to the battery" to solve my problem of powering everything that requires 12v?

 

[Oopslala]

Alright I just finished my diagram for what i think will be the final product.

I did not include the converter, which has the 12v appliances wired in. I will unplug the converter completely (unless plugged into shore power) and add a line for each appliance on it running to the fuse block. From there You can see in the link: https://cowcap.net/i/377b50fa25.png

One thing I still need help on determining what I need is fuses. The fuses in the fuse block wont be a problem, it's the fuses between the panels/charge controller, charge controller/battery, and battery/inverter I need help on.

Thanks

 

[ccbreder]

a RV converter is not the best to charge batteries. My suggestion is plan for a future change to install a Smart type marine charger. They have the ability to supply 12 volt house current as well as charge your battery. Many RVers have found their battery's life shortened by the converter.

 

[Oopslala]

Hmm that's good to know. I may just have a disconnect switch that doesn't allow converter to power up the batteries and just keep the solar running for that but disconnect any solar use. Just rely on shore power while I'm there but keep the battery bank full and happy as well.

 

[Canine]

I agree with not relying solely on the RV converter to charge your batteries. It is waaay too basic. If my batteries where low and I wanted to give a a good jump on the starting process, I would maybe use the RV converter for a bulk charge, but then disconnect it from the batteries when ready for the float and absorption stages.

With some inverters, there is an option of hooking up the AC end to a panel box instead of using the plug-ins built into the side of the inverter. I believe at one point you were thinking of 1 AWG to connect from inverter to the panel box. If that wire is carrying AC, 1 AWG is not the right wire. It won't hurt anything other than your wallet, but plain, old extension cord wire is all that is needed for that. If the wire from the panel box to the inverter is carrying DC, then the 1 AWG would be good. Since the panel box has circuit breakers, you wouldn't need fuses between the panel box and the inverter for either AC or DC. That would save you some money.

My understanding regarding fuses for the solar panels is if you have a short in the MC4 cable, you don't want to melt the wires. (Duh, I know. Bear with me)  If the wires are rated for 30 amp and you have 3 parallel connections @ 5.92 amps, you would have 17.76 amps max. If you had a catastrophic short in the MC4 wire, you would still be well within the 30 amp rating of the wire and it wouldn't melt. I'm thinking you wouldn't need fuses from your solar panels to your charge controller.

DC current likes to arc and melt connections. I see you have a switch in between your panels and the charge controller; much easier to do that than trying to drape blankets over the panels to stop the electricity. The switch could come in the form of a circuit breaker, so you would still have your "fuse". Sounds like a 20 amp fuse or 20 amp circuit breaker would be the size you need between the panels and the charge controller.

I was originally going to use dielectric grease for my connections, but Sternwake recommended DeOxit. That is the stuff I will use. You need to put something on those connections, too; don't skip this part if you want it done right and to help prevent poor connections in the future.

Here is a link that shows the best way to hook up batteries. I've read elsewhere that it doesn't matter as long as you have big enough and short enough wire, but I'm going to wire up the batteries like this link shows.  I want to baby my batteries and will do everything I can to ensure their longevity.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

At the end of this link it states, "And finally, finally, we keep getting asked where the chargers should be connected to. We didn't address this question because it seemed so blatantly obvious where they should be connected that it never occurred to us that anyone might be unsure. The chargers should always be connected to the same points as the loads. Without exception." That means the charge controller should be connected at the same point as the inverter. The inverter is a load device, so the load would be connected at the same point as the charge controller which is a charging device.

It may seem weird, but the wire for the charge controller can directly touch the wire for the inverter.

The charge controller manual will state which fuse is recommended. Since it is a 60 amp charge controller, I bet it will be a 60 amp fuse. I would rather change that fuse than open up the charge controller and change the fuse(s) in there; those fuses may be proprietary, too, which would suck. The inverter will need a fuse between it and the battery. It will say in the manual. There are slow burn fuses and quick burn fuses. For the inverter, I imagine it will need to be a slow burn fuse. Since you have a small 300 watt inverter, an automatic resetting circuit breaker wouldn't be that expensive and would be quite convenient. The magnetic type circuit breakers work better over the long haul compared to the thermal breakers. Whatever you choose, don't cheap out. Get good quality fuses or breakers.

If I ever have the need for shore power, I'm just going to use an extension cord. My electrical needs are so small that I don't have the need for special 30 amp or 50 amp RV hookups. If my batteries are low with no solar coming in, I will simply plug in a quality battery charger and clamp the cables onto the batteries.

 

[Oopslala]

So I've been doing a lot of reading on wire sizes in the past couple days. It's time to order all the the other accessories to go with the rest of the system.

From what I've gathered, pretty much all the wires going from the appliances TO the inverter don't require any big sized wires. What is a good gauge wire for that?

All the appliances I have apart from the fridge I'll be installing are installed already. All have a + and - wire and the - is grounded. Since there is already a ground for everything, can I just run a + wire from the inverter to the already existing + wire and not worry about an additional ground wire?

All my 12vDc have fuses in the converter which is properly grounded. Same goes for 110 except that's on breakers.

Earlier I had the idea of running wires from the breakers/converter(where the fuses are) into an additional fuse block. Further thought about this seems pointless to me. The ONLY positive thing I can think of out of that situation would be having a disconnect switch when hooked up on shore power so I don't drain/charge my batteries with converter. For all of the 110 appliances, I can just disconnect the inverter from the battery and that'll solve that problem. For 12v, I haven't thought of another way to be able to disconnect the battery juice when on shore. Maybe add another + bus and put everything 12v on there with a disconnect switch?

What would the appropriate fuse size be for this fridge? What would the appropriate wire size run to the fridge be? http://www.truckfridge.com/tf65.html (my current fridge is ac or propane, no 12v so I'll have to wire everything)

I'm planning on using 1 AWG wire for battery terminals and from the battery to the inverter. 2 AWG from the charge controller + to battery, and 2 awg from the - charge controller to the neg bus (I'm assuming it's required that I use a big wire for the negative side since its still a lot coming out of the charge controller)

Is it alright if I run all the 12v new wires off the + bus bar using smaller wire since it's going to each individual appliance and not all the power in one wire? (reducing wire size needed)

The same applies to the 110v from the inverter. Can I run individual wires from the inverter to each appliance?

One thing I can't seem to understand, why is it okay to only have temp sensor attached to the - terminal of the battery to the - bus? I just feel like there should be a much bigger wire than 16awg tiny wire.

 

[Canine]

You seem to be asking some basic questions. I apologize ahead of time if I'm answering this too simplistic.

With the fuses, it depends on the amps. That is a hard question to answer without seeing each individual appliance. For the fridge the website lists volt and watts; from there you can figure out amps. Watts divided by volts will give you amps. 60 watts divided by 12 volts = 5 amps. The fridge needs a 5 amp fuse for that unless the owner's manual states differently. This is how amps are figured out for all appliances.

Are the appliances in the camper 110 volt AC or 12 volt DC? Then how many watts are each individual one? We need that information to know where you are at with your electrical needs. There is some ambiguity there- at least for me.

110 volt appliances are easy. In a house do you hard wire each individual lamp, blender, TV, hair dryer, etc., to the wiring in the wall? You do the same thing in a camper as you do in an house. You plug it in. You don't need to figure out what size of wire you need, because the appliances already have a cord on them with a plug in.

The battery temp sensor uses a very small amount of amps, so the wire can be quite small.

You do need bigger wire coming out of the charge controller. It's good that you are getting really big wire as you have shown an interest in adding a panel or two in the future. Extra panels will increase your amperage.

AC stands for alternating current. The current flows back and forth and needs both wires; it doesn't flow in one direction then into a ground like with DC. If you are wiring DC appliances into the inverter, you will fry them. While technically, you can do different wiring with the inverter, I think you are better off hard wiring the inverter to the battery bank then leave it at that. 99% of people do that and then plug their appliances in. If you really want to do something more, I recommend having someone help you, but, honestly, don't do that. After you connect the inverter to the battery, stop right there. When you need a hair dryer or something, plug it in. When you are done, unplug it. You will need to plug in at the inverter, but that inconvenience is better the potential problems of trying to do the wiring in a different way. You can us the plug-ins on the converter as a temporary way to use AC 110 volts until you get some help with using the wiring and plug-ins already in the camper.

I don't know enough to know how the converter works in your camper.

 

[blars]

Fuses should be rated about 20% higher than the expected maximum current. Then you can consider slow-blow vs quick-blow, (use the former for motors), AC or DC, voltage rating, standoff current, etc. For low-power 12v (20A or less) standard auto fuses should be fine. Voltage rating on fuses is a maximum.

 

[ccbreder]

""One thing I can't seem to understand, why is it okay to only have temp sensor attached to the - terminal of the battery to the - bus? I just feel like there should be a much bigger wire than 16awg tiny wire.""
This is a thermometer. It is two wires connected to a thermocouple. It carries very small, almost non-measurable, current in a loop. It must go on a negative battery terminal to measure the temperature of the battery. It is not any sort of ground wire. It has no electrical connection to the battery. It can not measure temperature of the battery if on the negative buss bar. If there was any failure there could be a short if on the positive terminal. Not so on the negative.

 

[cortttt]

I can tell you all one thing; this thread is enough to scare the crap out of a novice wanting to put solar power in their van. I'm going to put 200 watts of solar power in mine.  Maybe 600 watts is a whole different story or because its an RV but  it's gotta be easier to put 200 watts in otherwise I don't think most people would ever do it.

Is there a simple guide for smaller installations somewhere?

Oopsala what are you going to use the 600 watts on? Bob passed out a flier at the Rendevous which suggested, I believe, that 200 watts was enough for a small fridge, laptop...

I know that microwaves are handy but after two years of living out a 4Runner I don't miss them at all. I would like reliable power for a small fridge (tired of ice chests), a small blender and my computer, tablet and smartphone.