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How does 570w of top quality made in the usa mono solar panels for $540 sound? My local branch of CED Greentech will sell the 285w mono SolarWorld grid tie panels for $270 each.  Now that we know you have a 5th wheel and probably have room for two 66x39 inch panels, it might be a viable option.  The link below for the above cited solar distributor, they have lots of branch locations:

http://www.cedgreentech.com/

You would need to use a MPPT charge controller to bring the voltage down for charging 12v batts.  I suggest that you consider the Morningstar Tristar MPPT 60amp controller if you are interested in the above mentioned panels.  You will harvest at least 10% more power with a MPPT controller on that size solar array.  Much more expand-ability as well, you could add another 285w panel or run as many as six of them if you want to upgrade to a 24v system in the future.  Remote temp comp sensor included.   $500 at the below link.

http://www.solar-electric.com/

Better equipment.  Lots more charge into your battery bank. The Renogy stuff is not junk, it is actually pretty good, just not in the league of the above referenced equipment.

There is not much expand-ability with the PWM controller that is included in the Renogy kit you are thinking of.  Put a fifth panel on your system and find yourself at high elevation on a cold sunny day and you could fry that controller with too much current as it is only rated for 30a.
 
Oopslala said:
Well I've just watched all of the solar related videos on Love Your RV's channel.

I just became so overwhelmed by all of the things they were doing with wiring etc.  

I'm wondering if I figuring out everything that I need and what I'll get, if you guys could help me with a diagram?  All of the wiring just overwhelmed the hell out of me.  In the videos they used 2 and 4 wire.  Will that be what I need to use for all the battery/inverter/charge controller wiring?

I remember seeing a diagram of a rough-sketch that could be applied to most systems where breakers/fuses and all of that would be required between certain things in the system.  

My camper is a 1996 and this will be the first solar installed onto it.
I didn't mean to scare you. Breathe it's okay. There is a difference between installing a solar system in a van that you design from scratch and an established system in your rig. You have to take your time. Ask a lot of questions. Maybe cruise some RV boon-docking forums. You can do this! It just takes a little more planning than a van, but you've got this. I know it is easy to get bogged down in numbers, diagrams, and what to buy. It is most times personal prefrences. Hang in there. Ask an rv mechanic and see what they suggest and the most common mistakes people make. It may save you time, money, and aggravation. Good luck and take it one step at a time.
 
As nice as that sounds, there's no way I can afford to spend $500 on a charge controller alone.

That's $1040 without including the batteries or inverter and all the other goodies I'll need.

I'm definitely interested in getting more bang for my buck, but not if it's going to cost me $500+ for 170watts more. I'd rather just upgrade the charge controller when I order renogy kit to the MPPT for $75 more. If I need to or want to add another panel or two, that'll surely handle the power it pumps out.
 
Oopslala said:
As nice as that sounds, there's no way I can afford to spend $500 on a charge controller alone.

That's $1040 without including the batteries or inverter and all the other goodies I'll need.

I'm definitely interested in getting more bang for my buck, but not if it's going to cost me $500+ for 170watts more.  I'd rather just upgrade the charge controller when I order renogy kit to the MPPT for $75 more.  If I need to or want to add another panel or two, that'll surely handle the power it pumps out.

Just wanted to give you the choice with more options.

The Tracer 40a MPPT that you can upgrade to is rated for a max of 400w of solar input if you are charging a 12v battery bank.  It will handle 800w of solar input if charging a 24v system. 

Link to that "40a" MPPT charge controller:  http://www.renogy-store.com/40-Amp-MPPT-Solar-Charge-Controller-p/ctrl-mppt40.htm

Possibly it is the famous Amazon policy of gouging some folks more than others, but if I upgraded to the MPPT on the kit you linked, I would have pay an extra $170!
 
So my dad had a potentially great idea for my battery bank. I don't have much room for a bank inside and there's no storage areas with outside access big enough. There's no spot inside the camper that would be convenient either.

His idea was to buy one of these racks to be put on the back hitch of the trailer: http://www.amazon.com/Tricam-ACC-1F...d=1452294972&sr=8-3&keywords=hitch+cargo+rack

Which seemed a bit risky to me at first, but there's way to secure it so it's not able to be removed. I'd have to have a metal container made to store the actual batteries in then lock that as well, running the wires through PVC pipe or something of that sort.

The only thing I can think of that's potentially bad for it would be temperature, but I'm not going to be using any a/c or heat that would effect the entire camper area. The possibility of them being stolen is there, but that doesn't seem much greater that someone trying to break into the camper as long as it's properly secured.
 
I don't see anybody asking some important questions that I'd want answers for up front...

Is your site going to be in the sun or in the shade?  Other than in the desert, huge numbers of sites are in the shade, so solar would be a waste of money.

Does the site provide shore power?  Many sites do, and if it does, why waste money on solar now?  Solar prices are dropping, so the longer you can wait, the cheaper it will be.

I'd look into getting a few important answers before spending any more money on this project.
 
I didn't ask whether any of the sites have sun exposure, definitely will call and find out on Monday. There are no sites with shore power.

I'll need solar once I leave regardless because I plan on going around the US for at least a year. I'm also entertaining the idea of getting a small 1000watt generator to help charge the battery bank, but from what I've briefly looked up, that would take quite a while with that small or a generator.
 
Don't forget about all the unused space underneath of your trailer and vehicle...

0711dp_10_z1997_f350dual_optima_batteries.jpg


http://comancheclub.com/topic/44967-rear-under-bed-mounted-battery/

https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/TorkLift/TLA7728.html
 
Oopslala said:
I'm also entertaining the idea of getting a small 1000watt generator to help charge the battery bank, but from what I've briefly looked up, that would take quite a while with that small or a generator.

The 1000 watt and 2000 watt generators from both Honda and Yamaha have so-called 12 volt charging ports, but they are limited to an 8 amp output.  8 amps times 12 volts is only 96 watts.  At best, these things are trickle chargers.

What you need to do is buy a good, "smart" charger, one with bulk, absorption, and float stages, and use the generator to power THAT.  A 1000 watt generator should easily power something like this Xantrex 40 amp smart charger:

http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-804-1...87556&sr=8-1&keywords=xantrex+battery+charger

Regards
John
 
IF one is firing up a 120Vac generator, primarily to charge a set of batteries in dire need of recharging, then I recommend one gets a charging source which can nearly max out their generator.

A pair of  healthy GC-2 6v golf cart batteries in series, depleted to 50%, can easily accept 80 amps if the charging source is seeking 14.4 to 14.8 volts.

When batteries are depleted, they have little resistance and can accept huge charging currents, efficiently.  When they get to the 80% range they start resisting the current and efficiency goes down, and so does the charge rate.

While one can get to ~80% quickly with a large charging source, that last ~20% is going to take about 4 hours, No matter what.

Figure an hour from 80%  to 90%, another hour to 94.5% and another hour to 98.5% and maybe another hour when holding 14.5+volts to reach  100% State of charge.

If the batteries have been cycled a lot without getting back up in the 95% range, preferably higher, regularly, then the time required to go from 80% to 100% increases, and can increase significantly, Double or more!.  They might even require an hour or two after this absorption stage  at 15.5 to 16 volts to be restored to their full capacity( equalization charge).  Again the more abused the batteries are, the longer the equalization stage can take, upto 8 hours even, before specific gravity is maximized across all cells.

At the 80 to 100% state of Charge range, the voltage should be at 14.4v or higher at 77F when brought up to this voltage at a high charge rate, high being  a minimum 20 amps per 100Ah of capacity.  The higher the charge rate, the faster absorption voltage is reached, and is reached at a lower state of charge.  Once absorption voltage is reached, the amps required to hold absorption voltage begin to taper.  Once absorption voltage is reached the flooded batteries are either gassing or will be soon.

When low and slow solar brings the battery up to say perhaps 90%  State of charge over a few hours, only then might the voltage climb/hit/reach 14.4v or higher and then it takes ~2.5 hours more to reach 100% .

When batteries are sulfated, it requires less amperage to get them upto Absorption voltage, compared to the same batteries when new and unsulfated.  Again this lengthens recharging timespans.  

Those watching a voltmeter closely might notice a very depleted battery, being fed with a high amp charging source, will  quickly rise to absorption voltage, but soon the voltage lowers again.  If one has an Ammeter one might have noticed 20 amps quickly brought the voltage to 14.5v, but then, as the battery wakes up, and resists the charging current less, the  electrical pressure will fall as the amperage increases to 30 or more.

Running a generator to get to 100% is wasteful of gas as that last 20% can take four or more hours.

So generally a 50 to 80% strategy is adopted by those who charge via generator.  Some might go another hour to try for 90%, But in this scenario, one should be using the highest amperage charging source that their generator can power, or that their batteries can accept, if they have a listed maximum charge rate( Inexpensive AGMS say no more than 30 amps initial charge current per 100AH of capacity).

Using a powerful charging source will shorten generator run times, and allow the batteries to reach a higher state of charge when it is shut down, and thus  ultimately last longer.


If one also can plug their extension cord into the grid, but only for a few hours, one also then wants a powerful charger to quickly bring the batteries upto absorption voltage, and hold them there for as long as one can hold them there, for  4 hours.  So if it only takes 45 minutes to get to absorption voltage, a whole heck of a lot more charging can get done in less time.

If one has Solar, and can get to 90% charged by midday using  other higher amp charging sources, then the solar will likely have no issues holding absorption voltage, and hold it long enough to either max out the specific gravity on flooded batteries, or on AGM batteries, when amperage required to maintain absorption voltage, tapers to 0.5amps per 100AH of battery capacity.

Batteries remain happiest and live the longest when All available Charging sources are employed whenever possible, to keep the batteries at as high a state of charge as possible.

When I plug in, I can charge at ~65 amps with two charging sources in parallel.  This is into a 90AH high $$ AGM battery which can easily accept this much current and actually prefers high charging currents.   

When I drive, my alternator has produced as much as 110 amps into this depleted group27 Northstar AGM when it was new.  Now it instantly reaches 14.9v absorption voltage( too high!!) at ~85 amps and tapers from there.  Despite this being well over Northstar's recommended 14.46v@77f, it does not seem to have minded this voltage.  I will be modifying me Van's voltage regulator soon so I can choose my Absorption voltage.

My Solar will contribute to charging amperage of either my alternator, or my Grid powered charger, as long as the battery has not yet reached the Solar's programmed absorption voltage.  The Charging source whose voltage regulator is programmed the  highest will keep going when the lesser voltage ones just stop outputting anything.

YOu might notice the repeated use of the term 'Absorption Voltage'

This is the highest voltage generally allowed and the voltage at which batteries can be fully charged, in the least amount of time. Battery manufacturers list their recommended absorption voltage at 77f.  Higher temps require lower Absorption voltage, colder temperatures require higher voltages.

  Attaining the proper absorption voltage quickly, when one has all the time in the world to recharge, is not necessary.

When one has limited generator run times, or times to plug in, then reaching proper absorption voltage quickly  AND then holding/maintaining absorption voltage will be the most effective at not only returning the required energy into the batteries, but keeping them as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

Most Automatic/ Smart charging sources  DO NOT HOLD absorption voltage for long enough, or they will drop to a lower voltage, like 13.8v a second after 14.8 is reached on the charging source output.  When the charging cables from charging source are long and thin the charging source might think it sees 14.4v, but the battery might only be 14v due to voltage drop on the inadequate wiring.

When the voltage drops, so does the electrical pressure and the charging amps can slow by 1/3 or more!  And you might still be powering the generator putting 8 amps into a battery which could accept 30 if it was getting 14.8v at the battery terminals.

So, again, in the interest of minimizing generator run times, one should have a powerful charging source, which can seek and Hold 14.8v, to  14.4v AT THE BATTERY terminals, and hold this absorption voltage the entire time the generator is running. Almost no automatic charging source can do this.

In steps the adjustable voltage Converter/power supply.

Powermax makes Converters with an adjustable voltage which go upto 15.5v( good for EQ charging flooded batteries, and conditioning lifeline AGM!)

These can be had in 45 amps flavors, upto 100 Amps.  At 60 amps they are power factor corrected( more efficient) use less AC electricity to make more available DC charging output.

http://www.bestconverter.com/Boondo...ower-ConverterCharger_p_587.html#.VpHVoLYrLUI

I would Contact Powermaxconverters.com and order directly from them over the phone and stress you want the adjustable voltage version!  I had the above proprietor try and blow some smoke up my keester regarding a '100 amp' model maxing out at 74.82 amps.

These are NOT Automatic chargers.  There are no  charging stages, it just goes full output until absorption voltage is reached, and then it holds it until either it is unplugged, or the voltage is manually lowered

My Friend now has a 100 amp version of the powermax and i have measured ~96 amps from it, perhaps a little low due to an older distant 15 amps household circuit and low input AC voltage.

My personal plug in charger is a Meanwell RSP-500-15 adjustable voltage power supply @ ~130$ .  Rated for 500 watts it will output 600.  It is capable of 40 amps output and has a voltage range of 13.12 to 19.23v.  But I modified mine with a better voltage adjusting potentiometer and increased ventilation and heatsinking.  I also have a Wattmeter on its output that counts displays, volts, amps watts, watt hours and amp hours Amp peak, watt peak, and minimum voltage.

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-My-newest-electrical-toy

Side by side with that 350$ Xantrax, it will outperform it.  The Xantrax would however not be able to overcharge the battery.  My Meanwell would fully charge it faster to 100%, but then it would begin to overcharge, unless I either turn it off, or lower the voltage to an acceptable 'float' voltage .

In terms of quickly recharging batteries, one can also have an appropriate sized engine spinning a powerful alternator. If this alternators voltage regulator is adjustable and set to 14.4 to 15 volts, then one can quickly get a battery back upto 85% charged.


Many one wire alternatores have an internal regulator which only allows 14.0 or perhaps less.  14.4 will cause more amps to flow, and 14.8 might allow 35% more amps to flow than 14volts at 75% charged

But that last ~20 % of charging is Always going to take hours, and achieving that last 20% of charge  to as near a true 100% as possible, is Key to achieving acceptable battery longevity.



Although 'Acceptable' is subjective.

Some might remember Grandpa's advice about a slow trickle charge always being best.  While this is the least abusive to a discharged battery when it is left on for long enough(days), it is more important to get to as high a state of charge as possible, before the next discharge cycle begins.

So Do not fear the high amp charge rate when that next discharge cycle begins just before sundown.  The depleted battery, when  tricked charged , will never have enough time to even approach 80%, and then the next discharge cycle likely drops the state of charge even lower, and once a battery is hovering in the 50% charged range, it is doomed, drowning and crying for life sustaining charging amperage, all it can get until bursting full. 

The clock is always ticking.
 

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Well, last night I got on Amazon to drool over the panels and contemplate buying them, then noticed that they had $60 off yesterday (may still today, didn't check).  So I went ahead and forked out the cash for them.  Decided to go with the mppt kit because I could see myself expanding in the future.

Now I just have to decide on the batteries and the rest of the goodies.  Pretty sure I'm going to buy the Duracell GC2 batteries.  4 of them, unsure for the rest at this point.
 
After much thought and debit I decided 2 more panels would still be within my budget so I went in on them. Bought a buddy heater as well.

Setup will consist of 600watts of renogy with 4 gc2 batteries for the time being.

Once the panels get here I'll lay them out and get an actually visual of everything that must be done. I'm a very visual learner, the the rest of the goodies will be purchased.

Expect more posts so, the panels arrive the 19th!
 
Oopslala said:
After much thought and debit I decided 2 more panels would still be within my budget so I went in on them.  Bought a buddy heater as well.

Setup will consist of 600watts of renogy with 4 gc2 batteries for the time being.

Once the panels get here I'll lay them out and get an actually visual of everything that must be done.  I'm a very visual learner, the the rest of the goodies will be purchased.  

Expect more posts so, the panels arrive the 19th!

So you will be running a 24v battery bank?
 
Oops misunderstood a little. I have t decided if I'll do 12 or 24
 
Oopslala said:
Oops misunderstood a little.  I have t decided if I'll do 12 or 24

With 600w of solar input you will have to go with a 24v battery bank as the MPPT charge control option with that Renogy kit is only rated to handle over 400w of solar input when connected to a 24v battery bank.

A cut and paste from my post #24 in this thread:

" The Tracer 40a MPPT that you can upgrade to is rated for a max of 400w of solar input if you are charging a 12v battery bank.  It will handle 800w of solar input if charging a 24v system. 

Link to that "40a" MPPT charge controller:  http://www.renogy-store.com/40-Amp-MPPT-Solar-Charge-Controller-p/ctrl-mppt40.htm "
 
So I'd just like a little clarification with some general knowledge. I'd rather ask and look stupid than spend money and not need something or need something else.

So, being in my camper, all of the outlets are 110v AC. Which will require an inverter for me to be able to use any of the plugins? Can I run a wire from the inverter to my breaker, which is connected to all of the outlets and just use them freely all throughout the camper, or will I have to only use the 1-2 outlets that are on the inverter itself?

Also, having a 24v bank would virtually eliminate any 12v DC items i have such as a microwave correct?

I guess I'm struggling wrapping my head around how my camper will be able to function off of a 24v battery bank without spending a lot of money to adapt to 24v bank
 
Oopslala said:
So I'd just like a little clarification with some general knowledge.  I'd rather ask and look stupid than spend money and not need something or need something else.

So, being in my camper, all of the outlets are 110v AC.  Which will require an inverter for me to be able to use any of the plugins?  Can I run a wire from the inverter to my breaker, which is connected to all of the outlets and just use them freely all throughout the camper, or will I have to only use the 1-2 outlets that are on the inverter itself?

Also, having a 24v bank would virtually eliminate any 12v DC items i have such as a microwave correct?  

I guess I'm struggling wrapping my head around how my camper will be able to function off of a 24v battery bank without spending a lot of money to adapt to 24v bank

You CAN supply 110v ac power from an inverter or generator to the 110v AC breaker or breakers in your camper.  You MUST use a transfer switch to do so.  A transfer switch totally disconnects the circuit to shore 110v ac power before connecting the generator or inverter to your camper.  This is required by law to prevent your on-board energy system from energizing the shore power grid in the event of a grid power outage.  You could kill the utility (shore power) workers working on restoring power if you do not use a transfer switch as described above.

I have never heard of a 12v powered microwave oven.  A 2000w or bigger pure sine inverter is what a lot of folks use to supply 110v ac power to a microwave while camping off the grid.  Microwaves demand a huge starting surge of power and most of them do not like the cheaper modified sine wave (MSW) inverters.  I have heard that the Panasonic inverter microwaves will tolerate MSW AC power, but they have reliability issues to the extent that I would not buy one.  Avoid the very attractively priced xantrex 2000 watt pure sine inverter, they were very good at one time but have reliability issues these days.

Putting 24v current to a 12v device will usually damage it.  You can convert 24v battery bank power down to 12v but to do it right will cost at least $200 for a good clean 15a at 12v. Avoid the temptation of simply tapping 12v off of a 24v series bank of 4 6v batts, it will unbalance your bank.

Please re-read posts #21 and #23 in this thread and then consider the amount of $ spent on the six panels and charge controller that you just bought.  Is the MPPT controller in the kit up to the task you would like it to perform?
 
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