On haggling

[MK7]

I'm not against haggling at all. I expect negotiations and I do the same to get a better deal.<br /><br />I'm against lowballing though. And going in asking for $700 when the seller's listed price is $1700, is not just lowballing, it's being a jerk and asking for a fight....in a sense that the seller is probably going to do everything that he can to make sure that he doesn't get the best of.

 

[Nelda]

Have none of us learned anything from watching History Channel's American Pickers???

 

[twokniveskatie]

MK7-

10,000 Ways.

Your OPINION is noted (caps for emphasis, not shouting )

No name calling.

Thanks

 

[twokniveskatie]

Nelda, I'm beginning to think I'd better buy a TV. I think I'm missing out on life.

 

[Ballenxj]

Actually Katie, You would be missing out on life more so if you had a TV, as opposed to not. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif" /> <br />Computers are bad enough, but we can at least use them to communicate. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" /> <br />-Bruce

 

[Kevin H]

My apologies to the forum. &nbsp;I never anticipated the direction this went.<br /><br />-- &nbsp;Kevin

 

[josephusminimus]

MK7:&nbsp; Lowballing is one of the possible strategies involved in haggling.&nbsp; Haggling isn't just throwing words around, it's assessing the situation, the item a person's selling, or buying, scrutinizing the party of the second part, attempting to find the route for acquiring the item at the most favorable price, or getting the highest price.<br /><br />Hagglers generally recognize one another and look forward to the job ahead.&nbsp; One of the best friends I ever had in my life began with an incident between us, each taking position and fighting tooth and toenail for our ends of a used furniture purchase I was making.<br /><br />Attempting to haggle with non-hagglers, though, isn't much fun, isn't a worthy expenditure of time for a haggler.&nbsp; <br /><br />A lowballer at the wrong time and place can spoil the brew, whereas at the right time and place get the price that should have been offered in the first place.<br /><br />I'm not qualified to judge whether that has anything to do with being a jerk.

 

[owl]

&nbsp;&nbsp; I made my living for over 30 years buying and selling automobiles and rvs. I will tell you from that long perspective that " Haggling " is what some folks live for on both sides of the deal. It has been my experience that people who don't want to try to deal often miss out on some real bargains. When something is new it is easier to ascertain its value. Something used is only worth what someone is willing and able to pay. I may be willing to pay your price but if I'm not able then we are at an impasse unless you are willing to deal. Make sense?

 

[Seraphim]

I'm not much of a haggler, but I won't pay more than what an item is worth. A friend of mine's an artist, and it's fun to watch him work lol. He buys old cars and restores them.<br /><br />I think one can approach the topic in a way that's not offensive.&nbsp; I generally compliment them on the item,&nbsp;tell them they'd probably get their price if they waited, then tell them I have X amount of money I can spend.&nbsp; If their response is close to mine, I can can generally 'scrape' up the difference, or else I thank them for their time and wish them luck. I'll leave a phone number, if there's a realistic chance we make make common ground, and ask them to call if they change their mind.<br /><br />Occasionally they call back. Once, his wife did. Turned out the title was in her name and she wanted rid of it. Unfortunately, I was no longer in the market.

 

[offroad]

Seraphim - good response.They right way.&nbsp;

 

[josephusminimus]

Owl:&nbsp; Probably a lot of the differences in views about it are the result of differing motives on the part of buyers.&nbsp; If a person's looking for a particular item to use, or to replace something he's been using that broke he's comparing the price to something new being sold in a store.<br /><br />But if he's just shopping around for items to re-sell he's got to buy at a price low enough to leave a profit margin to match his effort, risk and expense acquiring it.<br /><br />The OBO tag is one of the ways a seller communicates a willingness to haggle, but another is, say at a garage sale or flea market, not having a price showing on the item.&nbsp; When a buyer holds it up and asks, "What are you <em>asking</em> for this?"&nbsp; and the seller announces a price it's a near-certainty anyone who pays that price will be giving an unexpected bonus to the seller.&nbsp; And anyone who wanted the item but considered the price too high, put it down with a shrug and walked away wasn't on the same page.<br /><br />In flea market shopping, garage sales, even craft fairs the potential for haggling goes up as the end draws near and what's left on the shelves is going to have to be packed up and delt with again somehow.<br /><br />But there's another side of garage sales&nbsp;for people shopping for resale.&nbsp; Watching the newspapers for Saturday morning garage sales and calling to ask for an advance look at what's being sold, most people agree to it.&nbsp; And once they have a potential buyer looking things over, they'll take advantage by a willingness to bargain so they don't have to risk not selling it to a flock of next-morning garage sale hoppers.

 

[MK7]

MK7:&nbsp;&nbsp; Hagglers generally recognize one another and look forward to the job ahead.&nbsp;&nbsp;

<br /><br />This further proves that it's an exception to the rule (where 2 hagglers meet). Just as their are rules and common etiquette on this forum against typing in all caps, flaming, etc.&nbsp; The same applies in-person during buying &amp; selling situations. <br /><br />When the van in question, with the asking price of $1700 (which evidently, is about the fair market value for such van of such year)....and a buyer comes in an offers $700 for it...this is not what a person with good manners would do. And the average seller, who's usually not a reseller....therefore, hardly ever are in such negotiations in their life, is going to get pissed. <br /><br />

 

[josephusminimus]

MK7:&nbsp; Actually it doesn't 'prove' anything except your own belief that the 'rules' of common etiquette you practice are somehow absolutes for the remainder of the population.&nbsp; No doubt a lot of people would agree with you on the subject.<br /><br />However, the reality is that civility is the only rule of common etiquette more-or-less universally accepted.&nbsp; Attempting to stamp a particular behavior as 'average' to validate it as the ony proper acceptable one doesn't establish any claim involving realities encountered on the ground.<br /><br />You and I have no idea what 'the average person' thinks about this, nor about any other issue.<br /><br />And there's no way for either of us to guess with any degree of accuracy what will offend the 'average' person within the bounds of civil discourse.<br /><br />People who draw tight behavioral expectations around themselves in an attempt to control the behavior of those around them are destined to be offended frequently.&nbsp;

 

[missmillpl]

<span style="font-size: medium;">Hello all, I have been in the world of Haggling, Wheeling and dealing, Sales, Business management from birth. I was born into it. My playpen was in the upholstery shop and one of my 1st memories is watching pops wheel and deal. Oh what a joy to grow up in that lifestyle. It gives you a wonderful respect for what many folks out there call used item and I refer to them as treasures. One time as my dearly departed David offered something to his son he replied by saying no thanks I don't need hand-me-downs, I buy my things new!!! I will never forget the look on Dave's face, he truly wanted his son to have that item as it meant something to him and he knew his time here with us was short. Yes I still have that item and will till the day I leave. My point here is never think of something as new or used, consider this the TREASURES that remain with us from the past have survived...... Meanwhile we continue (well some of us) to purchase our belongings<br />new, to those I ask this, what is the quality of the workmanship that has gone into that new product, is it disposable!! Is it a better deal to buy a new sofa from some outlet for 300 bucks because its got the cool new look, or are you going to get the best deal on a USED one from the 50's and have it restored using a good fabric it will outlast the former by (so far) aprox. 60 years. The furniture made now is truly disposable with an average lifespan of 2 years depending on the size of the family and how well they treat their furniture. However if I purchased the good old treasure haggling for a great price of say 100 bucks and spent another 300 to refurbish it (oh I went to a flea market and haggled a great deal on some fabric from the 60's for another 50 bucks, this will last for 15 years as it was made prior to the disposable era and is a good quality) how much did my haggling save over the next 60 years? 8550 if my math is right.<br />I would not be able to survive if it weren't for haggling, I just wouldn't know how. I have been offended very few times in the 30 years of my tenor as boss, I have offended a few folks but rarely have I walked away with them continuing to feel offended. Yes I have been called a tightwad often but anyone who knows me will tell you I am fair. How many of us would survive without our modern comforts if they were all taken away right know. I'm pretty sure the hagglers would make out like a bandit while the Purchaser would still be standing there with no clue how to provide for their families because they cant figure out how to pump gas into their vehicle thats nice new and shiny (hey it looks good) so the can go to the big grocery store, oops no power the dude at the grocery cant sell you anything cause that card made of plastic doesn't work without power. AAwww sorry I didn't mean to rant so much, I suppose this subject hit me where it counts.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;</span>

 

[josephusminimus]

Millie P.:&nbsp; Good post.&nbsp; You mentioned in it you are 'fair', and it's a word used, or implied&nbsp;concept&nbsp;several times on the thread.<br /><br />Out of curiosity, would you agree that circumstance dictates the concept of fairness almost entirely?<br /><br />If not, what does define what's fair in a trading situation?&nbsp; Some table of market value for a given item?<br /><br />Moral principles of some sort defined somewhere as widely accepted?<br /><br />Somewhere in the past I ceased concerning myself with the concept of fairness in the usually accepted context because I've never been able to figure out any way of applying it in a way both sides of a bargaining situation could be assured of accepting it.<br /><br />Seems to me each person is prone to consider a sale or purchase 'fair' if he buys at the lowest possible price, or sells at the highest possible price.<br /><br />I'd be interested in reading your perspective and any reasoning that it carries along as baggage.

 

[missmillpl]

<span style="font-size: medium;">Jack, Fair in my perspective does depend on the situation at times yes the line can get blurred. Consider this if you go to an estate sale and you notice most everything is priced at what we would consider retail value, then you see an item that you can resale for a very large profit along with several other items that you know to be valuable. Upon nosing around a bit you overhear the story behind the sale being the monies raised from the sale are to pay off large amounts of debt left behind by the woman's spouse. Would you share with her that you are a dealer and are interested in purchasing a large amount of items as they are priced very low you can purchase more? Of course she responds by sharing she had no idea what they were worth, had she known she would have priced them accordingly. You could also just purchase it and not say a word leaving behind many other items she could have done much better on. My answer is always to share the true meaning to my excitement and offer a few suggestions regarding the other items. No matter the background of the reasoning for the sale. Yes there have been times that I have been hurt in the pocket book however there have been more times that I have walked away with a new friend. That to me is fair. If I am selling an item I put into consideration how much time energy and effort I have in said item and try to set what would be considered FAIR market value and if I receive a lower offer would I consider taking it YES. Note I said consider, If it was someone condescending I would most likely smile look them in the eye and raise my selling price!!! Yes I have actually done that, I have also invited them to look elsewhere for what they want and turned around right in front of them and given the item to some one who needed it and could only wish for it. That to me was FAIR!!!!!! Not only did I just create a customer for life I also helped some one in need and as a bonus shared with the condescending person (picking his jaw up off the ground) that sometimes one should truly consider how they come off to other people.&nbsp;<br />By the way to the fellow that thought it was an insult to offer 700 David owned an operated a car lot across from my shop for many years and his answer would have been (if he had less in it) yes, or he would have counter offered a payment plan for the balance. Also just a note the day he passed away I was offered alot less for one of his vehicle or It was actually mine (he had already signed it over to me) than it was worth and needed the cash to pay for the rest of his funeral, this was not known by the person making the offer. Yes I took the loss and the money to pay for his funeral, I also thanked the lord for that blessing right then as it truly was a blessing.</span>

 

[josephusminimus]

Thanks for the reply Millie.&nbsp; I don't know what I'd do under the circumstances you described and asked about.&nbsp; Most of the estate sales I've been to were auctions.&nbsp; At estate auctions the early-hour items usually go high, far higher then they're worth until the auction weirdness crew runs out of money.&nbsp; From that point on the shrewd auction buyers take over and everything might or mightn't go high, low, middle.&nbsp; Then, toward the end everything's a near-giveaway.<br /><br />I've never attempted to second guess anything, except the auctioneer, who tends to have a bag of tricks and sometimes needs a lesson about accepting non-existant bids to run up the score, or any of a dozen other shell games.<br /><br />But I did spend a lot of hours pondering fairness abstractions while I was sitting outside a gambling casino listening to truckers on the CB.&nbsp; The ones who'd lost their fuel money on the tables inside.&nbsp;&nbsp;They'd get on the radio and&nbsp;try to sell anything they owned to raise the money to get somewhere beyond that lonely 2am Sunday morning middle-of-nowhere casino parking lot.<br /><br />I'd always listen long to what other truckers had to say about the value of the items, give them a chance to buy, but learn from their discussions what the CB radios, guns, antennas, tire chains, cab equipment, refrigerator/coolers, cookers, were worth, at least.<br /><br />When the guy was figuratively lying on the pavement screaming and beating his fists on the ground, I'd make an offer.<br /><br />I was the only man left on earth who might get him out of that parking lot.&nbsp; What I offered seemed fair, under the circumstances.

 

[josephusminimus]

MK7: I acknowledge you personally find&nbsp;what you've described&nbsp;rude.&nbsp; If it pleases you to believe a majority of the population would also find it rude, I acknowledge the belief is pleasurable to you.<br /><br />A segment of the population takes pleasure in finding the behavior of others rude.&nbsp; Until there's a referendum I doubt we'll know what percentage of the population fits the description.<br /><br />Banks, commodity traders, corporations, brokerage firms, WalMart, Home Depot and every giant business is lowballing, going for the juglar against the competition.&nbsp; When WalMart comes to town local retail stores die.&nbsp; When Home Depot, local hardware stores die.&nbsp; When Office Depot, local office supply stores die.<br /><br />Nobody accuses them of being rude.&nbsp; They wait in the lines to buy their merchandise while the mom and pop businesses around them fade into oblivion because the big guys played low ball and hardball.<br /><br />But, of course, those lines of people down at WalMart aren't average.&nbsp; They don't think playing hardball against the competition is rude.<br /><br />The little guys, the ones chasing bargains and trying any strategy available to stay ahead of the mortgage usually aren't on salaries.&nbsp; They don't work for the government, for WalMart, for the banks, the brokerage firms, for corporations.&nbsp; Mostly they can't afford the luxury of being offended as easily as people on career paths within the package of larger cutthroat institutions.<br /><br />They haggle, but they do it in as kindly a way as possible.&nbsp; Almost never cost other people their jobs, businesses, homes.<br /><br />In fact, some might consider them a lot less rude than the ones who do, if the measure is in damage done to fellow humans, rather than merely abstractions of imagined offensive behavior.<br /><br />

 

[missmillpl]

<span style="font-size: medium;">MK7, What Jack said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just don't get why you are choosing to continue trying to bully people over something that you obviously don't understand. And before you pick on me about the size of my font it is because I am visually challenged. As for the whole 60% thing I also have added a large markup many times if I thought that there would be a situation that anyone would try to talk me down. In our world most people that deal with good old treasures do this as they expect to haggle. As you didn't call and discuss ( I assume you didn't as you have not stated that to be a fact) the situation with the original seller of the item you have no clue if they them self did the common practice of adding what they felt was a good buffer. I really do not see the point in what you have been doing unless you are enjoying yourself by putting down other people picking out point by point as if you were still in the business presenting a debate in front of others like yourself. I believe we have been asked not to do this. Especially point by point quoting.Some of us are trying to enjoy discussions regarding the art of haggling.<br /><br />Jack, In your case I would do the same. Those fellows made the choice to play with their money in that way so they in turn have to suffer the consequences. I consider that as fair as giving the person I spoke of the item in front of the insulting fellow, Believe me when I say insulting. It takes me alot to get to that point. As for auctions I love them, we had an auction house for a very long time.<br />And yes there are some auctioneers that are not on the up and up, I have worked with a few myself and it was always short lived for them. An auction is where I met my darling David some 25 odd years ago. Auctions have a completely different set of rules than what we were discussing. Most times the auctioneer doesn't have any interest in the auction house at all, with the exception of hired help. I have seen alot of crazy things at auctions, I once saw somebody pay over 200 bucks for a marble only to have the guy carrying it to him drop it and crack it I'm pretty sure I saw pops throw up in his mouth as he knew the only right thing to do was pay the consignor the money and resell it for so much less. That was in the early 80's now it would probably sell for more as these days the public expects flaws in their treasures. That is the exceptional place to get a deal at times for the little guy fighting to survive.</span>

 

[Kevin H]

<div><span style="font-size: small;">It seems that the bone of contention on this thread is the concept of 'low balling'</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Just what is 'low balling'? &nbsp;Is there a mathematical calculation that determines a 'low ball' threshold?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">In the original example, the van was advertised at $1700 OBO. &nbsp;My suggestion of $700 apparently fit the bill as a 'low ball'.</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">What beginning offer would have been acceptable? &nbsp;$800, $900, $1000?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">It was also suggested that the van in discussion is 'worth' $1300.</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Given its perceived worth of $1300, that means the seller was opening at what could be considered a pretty inflated price. &nbsp;</span></div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Had She paid $1600, how would that have set in the overall discussion?</span><br /><br /></div><div><span style="font-size: small;">She mentioned that she is going to offer $1200. &nbsp;That is only $100 under the "worth" value of the van. &nbsp;</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Is She buying a van in Excellent condition, Good condition, or Bad condition? &nbsp;What do those categories do to the 'worth' of the van?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">We can assume that there will be a counter offer by the seller. &nbsp;If She ends up paying over $1300 then we must assume she paid too much.</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Why, again, would it be so distasteful to start substantially lower?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">With a worth of $1300, an opening bid of $700 was over half of the 'worth'. &nbsp;Is it still a 'low ball' bid?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">Is a 'low ball' bid based on assumed worth or the price being asked?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">With an advertised price of $400 over the 'worth', how can an opening offer of $700 be any more (or less) repugnant than the asked selling price?</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span style="font-size: small;">In every transaction each side must represent their own best interest.<br /><br /></span><div><span style="font-size: small;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">She</span> - I am in no way casting any sort of judgment on your proposed offer. &nbsp;I'm just using your figures as an example for the discussion.</strong></span></div><div>&nbsp;</div></div><div><span style="font-size: small;">-- &nbsp;Kevin</span></div>