Need advice on what Solar system equip to buy

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My main point was not PWM vs MPPT, but that your solar controller being driven by an intelligent battery monitor with direct access to accurate SoC information is a huge advantage.

​MidNite Solar Whizbang Jr is similar I believe, likely those are the only two such on the market.

Plus of course you then get all the advantages of a good bank monitor, not just better solar regulation.

But overkill for small budget setups, just put it out there as an alternative to consider once larger more expensive Victron controllers came up.
 
jimindenver said:
MPPT is just a different way of doing it and needs to be understood. Instead of seeing the two types of systems as warring factions we should be looking at them as what they are, options with different positives and negatives for each. Many of the reasons against small system MPPT have gone out the window since you could get a MPPT controller for $100 or less and that happened 5 years ago with the release of the Eco-worthy 20a MPPT controller. It is that controller and now several more that make some of the blogs like Handy Bob's outdated. At the time the cost of a MPPT controller made the advantage too costly to make it worth while. A extra panel would add more power for the money and even now should be a consideration when looking at a system. Now you can affordably squeeze every last amp out of your system and not break the bank while charging yours.

MPPT has it's place and is the better choice in some situations, I would not argue that but where I take exception is the solar industry has overblown the supposed gains simply because the profit margin is greater and convinced too many people, who believe everything they read that MPPT is the only way to go.  Then to make matters worse the industry has created "cheaper" MPPT models to close the gap between PWM & MPPT to get more people buying them and in so doing have created units that are in many cases no more efficient than a high quality PWM meter at a higher cost.  And those better quality MPPT meters that may show a better efficiency than many PWM meters, the efficiency is no where near as substantial as the industry (dealers) want you to believe, certainly not enough for me to warrant the added expense which I am happy to apply elsewhere.  The other myth I have heard bandied about is that MPPT will make up for inefficient wiring of the system and so too many pay little attention to setting up a solar system well and to gain the most efficiency within the system.  Below is from the Bogart Engineering FAQ page on why they have chosen not to produce a MPPT controller which is instructive.   Bogart Engineering makes some of the very best solar related products and have the engineering savvy to produce a quality MPPT but have chosen not to.

"C1. The debate rages: which controller is best PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) or MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Why did you choose PWM technology instead of MPPT for your SC-2030 Solar Charger?  
A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:
The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances–it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:
(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.
(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.
(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.
PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT–which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.
Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current–meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.
The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.
Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.
If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)
There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge–but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.
The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it–for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage–which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.
The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.
Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology."
 
MPPT is better, not because of propaganda, but because of simple math.

Your "12-volt" solar panel is almost certainly an 18-volt panel--or more. But your battery is in fact pretty close to a 12 volt battery and so it can never take much more than 15 volts. And only very briefly can it take much more than 14.4 14.8 volts. Typically, a battery will be getting in the 13.5-volt range (or less) most of the time.  Let's do some math.

First, we need to know the amps of a panel. Let's take a 180-watt panel for example because the math is a little easier.

180 divided by 18 = 10 amps. We have a 180-watt panel producing 10 amps.  

But what happens when the battery can only take 13.5 volts or less--which is probably at least half the time or more?

13.5 volts X 10 amps = 135 watts.

Wait a minute!! I bought a 180-watt panel, why is it only putting 135 watts in my battery--where is the other 45 watts? That just ain't right!!

Because you went cheap and bought a PWM controller, that's why!!

It's impossible for your battery to ever take the whole 18 volts your panel produces so the controller steps down its voltage to what is ideal for your battery at that moment.

A PWM controller is STUPID and can only reduce voltage, it can NOT increase amps. So when it flushes the volts down the toilet to protect the battery, along with it goes your amps and watts--KISS EM GOODBYE, you'll never see them again!!

However, a MPPT controller is SMART and it's designed to increase the amps so that all your watts and amps goes into the battery--NOT THE TOILET!

So it puts in the same 13.5 volts into your battery, but it doesn't just STEP-DOWN the voltage, it also STEPS-UP  the amps--because it's smart and not stupid!

So, it does some calculations and increases the amps to 13.3. Now lets do the math:

13.5 volts X 13.3 amps =179 watts  Hallelujah, I got all the watts I paid for!!!!! I didn't have to flush 45 watts down the toilet!!

You only paid a little extra for that MPPT controller once. But every day for the rest of its life it will gift you with 35-45 extra watts of power.

Here is the most important thing though, MPPT works the BEST, when you need it most, in the winter!! In the winter, the days are short and the sun is low on the horizon, so your panel produces less volts for less time. And, the nights are longer so you run off your batteries for more time, running the voltage down even lower. Plus, a cold battery stores less and can take even less voltage than in the summer when its warm. 

With PWM, lower voltage means more amps/watts flushed down the toilet!

Since your putting even less voltage in during the winter, and taking much more out, getting every little bit of watts and amps out of them is critically important.

But PWM fails you, it just happily flushes even more power down the toilet!!

MPPT to the rescue! On the other hand, MPPT fights for every watt and every amp and gets every tiny bit into your battery when you need it most. 

This where people who love PWM really miss the mark. They are planning for the best times in the summer when power is abundant and the wasted power of the PWM isn't important. But that's very poor planning. Design your system for the worst times!! For long periods of clouds or storms and for the winter where every watt and amp is critical!! During those times, MPPT is worth its weight in gold! 

A good MPPT controller can be had for barely more than a PWM, it's penny wise and dollar-foolish to buy a PWM.
 
"[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss..."[/font]



Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting PWM on the Internet ignore MPPT gains associated with powering loads in daytime.  Even on matched systems (12v banks, 12 panels) MPPT harvest more PV power to run those loads.  I suggest this gives the 'dweller a better chance of hitting sunset at 100% SoC.

I own both PWM and MPPT controllers and use each where they make the most sense.  It's not an article of faith.
 
To me the time when the MPPT advantage is at it most is early in the morning when the battery's voltage is the lowest and PWM gives you the least it can out of a panel. That is when you will see the biggest difference between the two systems and it is when you need the power the most.

As far as the conversion loss, yes that 4% is so horrible that it almost takes the shine off of the fact that I am getting 100% of the panels output all of the time.
 
After taking in everyones advice, listing my needs and set up this (see below) is the controller I chose. I read several blogs touting the benefits of both systems but feel that this product will fit the bill. I looked into using a dual controller system as John corectly suggested but  Victron  is not set up for it's blue-tooth to communicate that way. As to the issue with shading I am hoping that this MTTP controller can mitigate some of this until I have my third (small) portable panel. I also purchased the blue-tooth dongle. I value everyones input as it has truly been helpful, although sometimes slowly :rolleyes:, in getting my brain wrapped around the beginnings of this.

It will take a couple of weeks for most of my basic items to roll in from the various vendors, allowing me more time for study and a few glasses of wine. :D





http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Energy-MPPT-10030-Solar-Charge-Controller_p_3666.html

[font=Arial,]Victron Energy MPPT 100/30 Solar Charge Controller[/font]
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On sale$196.35
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Fantastic you were able to pull the trigger before your head exploded :cool:

If you will get shading be sure to go parallel.

When shading is not an issue you may get 10-15% daily power by going serial.

You could test this speculation before actually running your wiring, to see if it's worth doing the separate home runs, or a junction box to get the flexibility of switching.
 
FYI that controller has safe capacity for a third such panel, series or parallel, but overpanelling by ~15%.

If you find with two panels actual watts output is reaching well over 300W at times your bank is depleted, then best to get a separate controller for subsequent panels.

That also avoids the need to stick with matching the old ones, if for example you wanted to go with a portable set you could place well away from your van.
 
Hi Susan,

Boy I feel your pain! After reading this entire thread my eyes and brain hurt.  I have also been researching my solar options, and found a lot of valuable information. Good luck on your install, I will be following closely!

~Sherry
 
Update!!!! I did it :cool:. Every muscle, bone and fiber of my body aches but my solar, batteries and fan have been installed. I missed one item that needs to be corrected, the quick disconnect for the batteries.

It is far from perfect. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for everyones help :heart:, now I need to install the 12 volt outlets.
37024244582_6553f6d9de.jpg
[/url]IMG_20170912_192814 (1) by VagaboundSusan, on Flickr[/img]
 
Very nice Susan,

  Most of the analysys paralysis is gone and you're about ready for a ROADTRIP!!
 
Nice work! I have a Blue Sea 6010 dual circuit switch. I switch the solar panels and battery to controller with one turn. I use another single switch to disconnect the battery negative. Between the battery and shunt.
 

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