Men Only! Women Keep Out!!!! No Women Allowed!!!

[lenny flank]

Even the most loving, dedicated mother can NOT teach a boy how to act, feel, and behave  'manly'.

Fortunately, we have Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone movies to teach that.

 

[Ballenxj]

Young boys NEED a strong father figure, or a solid, reliable, and available, male mentor in their lives.
<-------->
Women don't, cant, and will never, understand this fully.

^^ THIS! ^^
But please don't get me started down this rabbit hole again as this strikes a serious chord with me so much that I might say something that I will regret saying later. 
Relationships have been treated as disposable for at least the last thirty years or more now. This is where I will shut my mouth before I say too much.
As an aside, how many here knew that wolves mated for life? 
http://mentalfloss.com/article/55019/10-monogamous-animals-just-want-settle-down

 

[SoulRaven]

Protection.

 

[tx2sturgis]

E, Your results speak for themselves. So you have my respect and honor.

But, I spoke in general terms, trying to make sure that I was understood, to the best of my ability.

And there will always be exceptions.

Did you know that 85-90% of male felons in prisons came from fatherless homes?

A coincidence?

I think not.

 

[Cammalu]

Eoewan. You've must have done an exceptional job. Not that many single parents are so successful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[slynne]

There is a difference between saying that a strong male father figure is an asset and saying that a boy cant be raised right without one. I would even go so far to say that being raised without a father is better than being raised by an an abusive one. Oh and fwiw, men can raise daughters right without a strong mother figure too. I know a few women raised by their fathers and they are 'womanly' just like I know plenty of men raised by women who are 'manly'. But maybe we have different ideas about what that means?

To say that someone wasn't raised right suggests that there is something wrong with them though. And there is nothing wrong with my male friends raised by their mothers or my female friends raised by their fathers.

And now, I know a few lesbians with sons and gay men with daughters and they seem to be raising healthy happy children although often they have relatives of the opposite gender to fill those opposite gender roles.

 

[slynne]

Re: "Did you know that 85-90% of male felons in prisons came from fatherless homes?"

It probably isnt a coincidence but it it still a correlation and thus not causation

For instance, how many of those were *single parent* homes? Single parent homes tend to be poorer and have fewer resources and that mattters a lot when looking at criminality

 

[Putts]

It DOES take a MAN to make a boy into a MAN.

Brian, I'm going to politely disagree. It's a generalization taken a step too far.

Let's start with: It takes a good human to raise a good human.

Taking my cue from this recent thread, while the above statement only covers about 20% of the issue, it probably solves 80% of the problem.

Case in point: When I divorced my first wife, it was ruled that she would get custody of my 7 yo daughter. My ex was a simple soul with a borderline personality disorder that treated my daughter as a little princes and wanted a girly girl. I knew this would smother her and I fought like the damned to wrestle custody from her somehow, which I managed to do in the end. When my daughter was 14 she decided to go live with her mom. Within a year and a half she asked me to take her back...she had slid downhill dramatically and was self harming because of her mom's suffocatingly narrow perspective. At 18 I told April the whole story and let her read all the court and psych documents. After she had processed it all she thanked me profusely for fighting to keep her for her formative years. She told me she would have been a wreck if her mother had taken her. To my mind even as a father I did a way better job of helping her grow up to be a good woman than her mother would have. The converse is, I'm pretty sure, true as well. A good woman would be better to raise a boy into a man than a poor father.

To my mind your perspective on what it is to be a good man is too narrow . The whole idea of a "manly man" as a goal for boys is far too narrow to represent the diversity of beings in a male body. Some men are gentle and nurturing and make great nurses and teachers. They don't have to be dramatically masculine to be great men.

In my way of thinking both man and women have masculine and feminine attributes in various proportion. Some women are unusually authoritative and warrior-like; some men are inordinately sensitive and nurturing. The diversity of human psychological makeup in these areas and others is huge. To make a blanket statement that, "It DOES take a MAN to make a boy into a MAN" is a blinder to the real complexity of who and what humans are.

Humans are far too complex to be labeled, put in boxes, and trained solely of the shape of the meat between their legs.

 

[tx2sturgis]

....and saying that a boy cant be raised right without one.

I never said that.

 

[Dennis]

I have read back and forth on both threads and wondered if I should even comment but decided I would add to the discussion/debate.

When it comes to thinking that men don't understand the fears or what can happen to women it has been my experience that most of us that have been husbands, fathers, brothers, friends, etc. have made it a point that the women in the circle are constantly reminded about being aware. Badger them about self defense.....whether it be physical, firearms, mace, whistles, don't go alone to certain places and certain times, or whatever it takes. We have done that because we do know.

Even though statistics tells us that the majority of sexual assaults on women are committed by men known to them I don't subscribe to the notion that yeah, you will be fine don't worry about it when travelling. Chances are you will be but being prepared helps ensure that you will be. I take precautions myself!

I spent a decade as a LEO and that included answering many calls relating to assaults, reports of rape...which was almost without exception dates, husbands or live in boyfriends or exes of both. Seldom could I convince the women to go for a rape kit and file charges. When the domestic violence laws came to be at least I didn't need a complaint from a woman that just had the crap beaten out of them by a bad dude boyfriend that was still at the scene to arrest and file them myself.

But yeah, even though I am one of the good guys reading some of the posts gives me an empty feeling. I do understand that the words come from previously abused/sexually assaulted women.

No worries about me, ladies. I'll just be taking pictures and looking for rocks and gold nuggets and bothering no one.

 

[eoewan]

Putts, quote "Some women are unusually authoritative and warrior-like..." In our home we call it being assertive. LOL I enjoyed your comment.

 

[tx2sturgis]

To my mind your perspective on what it is to be a good man is too narrow . The whole idea of a "manly man" as a goal for boys is far too narrow to represent the diversity of beings in a male body. Some men are gentle and nurturing and make great nurses and teachers. They don't have to be dramatically masculine to be great men.


"It DOES take a MAN to make a boy into a MAN" is a blinder to the real complexity of who and what humans are.

True, and I was not talking about men raising girls. Thats a seperate issue.

I'm not saying it is RIGHT for society to dictate how manly a man needs to be.

Soft sensitive, 'girly' male humans are all around us, and sometimes, very successful, happy, and even attractive, and many are quite heterosexual. Many if not most of them make great providers, entertainers, fathers, politicians, truck drivers, hair dressers, whatever. But no one refers to them as MANLY.

I was talking about societies definition of 'manliness'...and if a boy finds that he is quite MANLY by societies standards, (whether thru male bonding, role model patterning, or his own inner strength) it is not something that a mother taught him.

Because she cannot.

 

[Putts]

I was talking about societies definition of 'manliness'...and if a boy finds that he is quite MANLY by societies standards, it is not something that a mother taught him.

I would suggest that it's not taught by the father either but rather is the nature of that child. The parent/s then have to grow that particular, unique individual into a good human acknowledging the nature of his personality.

 

[lenny flank]

Soft sensitive, 'girly' male humans are all around us, and sometimes, very successful, happy, and even attractive, and many are quite heterosexual. 

Quite.

There is an undertone to all of this which I find......disturbing.........

 

[tx2sturgis]

I would suggest that it's not taught by the father either

The boy's naturally occurring rebellious nature CAN be sculpted, molded, shaped, and cultivated, in a positive way, by a father or manly role model.

If you see a 12 year old boy crying over some perceived slight on the school playground, how acceptable is that to his classmates? Is that perceived as 'manly'?

But a 12 year old girl is still fully feminine if she cries when things don't go right...maybe her friends dont invite her to a birthday party or whatever.

That same boy at 14 LEARNS from his male friends, teachers, counselors, or his father, that he should not be crying if he didnt get a turn at bat, was made fun of, or had to deal with rejection from a cute girl.

But an 18 year old girl is crying at the loss of a boyfreind and she gets nurtured...no one tells her to 'man up'.

Its society the way it is.

If a man shows feminine weakness in public, it is frowned upon....period.

But girls and women ARE allowed to show 'manly' strength, OR feminine 'softness'...all the time.

 

[slynne]

That sounds like a good argument for NOT teaching men to be 'manly' fwiw

 

[Putts]

I think we need to define manly better. I think one of the most damaging things in out society today is that it's definition of a "manly man" sucks ass.

We've spent a lot of time over the last five decades defining the values of feminine ideals. (Nurturing, empathy, sensitivity, etc.) But it's often been done in the context of vilifying what I would consider masculine ideals. Society right now, IMO, does not deliver a quality picture of what it is to be masculine and a good man. In a crude generalization, it berates things like authority and assertion, and asks men to be sensitive and nurturing beyond their nature and to the exclusion of more natural characteristics.

Time to don my Nomex suit now, I suppose.

 

[Putts]

There is an undertone to all of this which I find......disturbing.........

I'm listening.  



Seriously, I'm interested in what's disturbing to you.

 

[lenny flank]

And now the testosterone is lapping around everyone's ankles......................

What I keep hearing under all this is "Hey, if we let the women-folk raise the boy, he'll grow up to be a sissy. And probably gay."

And I find that....disturbing.......

 

[slynne]

It just breaks my heart that so many men are raised to think of emotional expression as weak or not masculine. Really it does because crying isnt weakness, imho, and actually is a source of strength

I am also sad that most men cant feel free to wear skirts in the hot summer because thaey are super comfortable!